Talk:University of Notre Dame

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Contents 1 National Recognition 2 Anti-Catholicsm 3 Athletics 4 Location 5 du Lac in page title 6 UND Australia 7 Malloy 8 Marye Anne Fox 9 Football Championships 10 Code of Conduct and Catholic Tradition 11 Virgin Mary image 12 Catholic Students 13 Alexander Wilson (athlete) 14 Fan Sites 15 "Fightin' Irish" nickname 16 Top of the page 17 Princeton Review 18 Slumbering Echoes 19 Intramural Football 20 Where the hell's that gold?

[edit] National Recognition

A while back a study came out, affiliated with a major magazine, that found Notre Dame was the second most common answer after Harvard as to which school americans thought was the top in the nation. Even though this is somewhat objectively obsurd, it seems worth mentioning in the section on reputation to give a grounded idea of how the lay public percieves the school.

[edit] Anti-Catholicsm

I think it would a worthwhile addition to this article to include some of the links between anti-catholicsm in the United States and Notre Dame. Possibilities include disturbances between the Klu Klux Klan and the student body, how ND was originally kept out of the Big Ten, and mentioning of some theories as to why this might be Notre Dame football became popular nation wide.

[edit] Athletics

Whether we like it or not, the Boston College game is billed as a rivalry by all major sports media. We can continue to play the elitist card and rest on our laurels, or we can accept the game for what it truly is.

Yes, but even if Boston College were to be listed as a rival, and it probably should be since ND and BC are the only two Catholic universities playing major college football, it would still be more proper for it to be listed as part of a series of other rivals along with Purdue and Navy. After USC, the biggest rival of the Fighting Irish has to be Michigan. The current article seems to suggest that Boston College is the number 2 rival, and this is simply not the case. Tewdrig 06:45, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Location

IMO, Notre Dame is in South Bend, not adjacent to it. It just has its own ZIP code for the convenience of the Postal Service. It's not a real town. It doesn't have an elementary school, a police departmen, a fire department, or any other municipal services, nor does it have a mayor, town council, or any other municipal officials. It is just a university campus. --Tysto 21:44, 2005 May 6 (UTC)

I edited myself in the above comment to eliminate my un-Wiki display of bile. I swear, it was just the Boilermaker in me. However, I have left the core of the commment, some of which I have admitted below was incorrect. --Tysto 21:06, 2005 May 31 (UTC)

I decided to leave the word "adjacent" and add an explanation in a Location section. The university is kind of proud of its address, even if other colleges laugh when they see their roster says they'll be playing in "Notre Dame, Indiana." A clarification about police: the campus "security police" are just private security; their website uses clever wording, but only those officers who are real cops in their regular jobs in the surrounding communities have the full training and legal authority of sworn police; the others are just dudes with a nice uniform. --Tysto 22:24, 2005 May 6 (UTC)

Um, it actually does have its own sworn police and its own fire department as well. Yes, they employ non-sworn patrolmen in addition to their sworn force, but so does the NYPD.

Notre Dame, IN is a viable city. It does have educational facilities, though none for little kids. But look at the populace! No little kids! I think the city of Notre Dame serves it's tax-paying (a.k.a. buying football tickets) citizens very well.

Fr. Jenkins is the mayor, and will perhaps become the longest-serving of American mayors in a few years' time.

"Department Staff

"For nearly 140 years the University of Notre Dame has been served by it's own Fire Department. ...

"Today, the Notre Dame Fire Department is staffed by professional full-time Firefighters, twenty-four hours a day. Each duty shift has one Captain (shift commander) and three Firefighter/Emergency Medical Technicians. There is a total of three shifts that work twenty-four hours at a time. The Department is also staffed with 19 on-call Firefighters who fill in for full time Firefighters and serve as additional manpower when major events and incidents occur."

"In addition to being Indiana State certified Firefighter 1 and 2 level, all Notre Dame Firefighters are also state certified Emergency Medical Technicians. Most NDFD personnel are certified in hazardous materials response at the operations level, certified divers and trained in high and low angle rope rescue, confined space rescue and ice rescue."

"The Fire Department is lead by a Fire Chief..."--Samuel J. Howard 01:31, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

I've rewritten this so that it is now accurate. Also I've noted that while in an unicorporated part of St. Joseph county, the campus does cross both Portage and Clay townships. Most of the campus is in Portage, but the expansions across the (east of) Juniper Rd. are in Clay tonwnship.--Samuel J. Howard 01:42, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction about the NDFD. My memory and web search were both deficient. I stand by my statements about the ND security police. --Tysto 18:44, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

Even if you think it is important to keep the mention of Juniper road, your phrasing is poor: "located partly in Portage township, most of the campus, and partly in Clay township, east of Juniper Road." I'd suggest changing it to: "Most of campus is located in Portage township, while expansions east of Juniper Road lay in Clay township."--michael zimmer 19:42, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone really care what township Notre Dame is in? Does that even belong in an encyclopedia? It seems to me that the answer to the question "Where is Notre Dame?" is "South Bend, Indiana, but it has its own ZIP code." --Tysto 21:07, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

I agree that in terms of identifying the location of ND in an encyclopedia article, the actual township is not necessary information (especially which particular road marks the division between townships). Whether or not the campus exists within the city limits of South Bend is a different issue. I think the best entry would be something like "Notre Dame is adjacent to the city of South Bend, IN and approximately 90 miles southeast of Chicago" as listed on SouthBend.com--michael zimmer 22:07, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

In response to Tysto--But it is not "in South Bend, Indiana". Nor of course is having one's own zip code at all important, since, for instance, arbitrary divisions of large cities with no organic unity frequently have their own zip codes. I lived there and to vote I had to register with St. Joseph County as a resident of Clay township. Figuring out where the border was required quite a bit of research. Why should the information not be included? Wikipedia is not paper. This is exactly the kind of thing that should be included in an encyclopedia.--Samuel J. Howard 02:53, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

I applaud your effort; it's more than I could muster, and I've lived around there almost my whole life. I think the township detail should not be included because it's not helpful to 99% of readers (the information in the entry for Notre Dame, Indiana is appropriate, including the township detail). I was fine with the word "adjacent" and misspoke when I wrote "in" again. I just object to wording that suggests that the university is a town in any traditional sense. --Tysto 00:37, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

[edit] du Lac in page title

I'm thinking that this needs to be moved to University of Notre Dame, as that is the commonly accepted name. Even the school's website doesn't mention the 'de Lac' part. It should still be mentioned on the first line, as it is the official name. Any objections to a move? Xyzzyva 01:13, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

I strongly agree! The school's site does mention the "du Lac" part... but you have to dig down deeply into the "history" section to find it. As a rule, the site consistently calls the school "University of Notre Dame". Dale Arnett 03:55, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ATTENTION: I'm preparing to move this page to University of Notre Dame some time in the next few days, unless I hear a big outcry otherwise. Even though the full legal name includes the "du Lac", the school itself almost never uses it, except on diplomas (I believe). Most people searching in Wikipedia would refer to it as "University of Notre Dame", and the school uses that name consistently throughout its official site. Dale Arnett 05:06, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] UND Australia

I don't understand the disambiguation about not confusing this with UND-Australia? Is that not a sister campus, as the article mentions? If the two universities are affiliated, then I don't think it would be correct to say "don't confuse it with", but rather, simply keep the note in the text that a 2nd campus exists. --michael t zimmer 01:57, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

mike - I think that this claim about the link between the two universities is basically false (although it was so ambiguous anyway - what the heck is a 'sister campus'?). So I've removed hat tidbit. UNDA say on their website that they were 'inspired by' the American Notre Dame. The two are totally separate institutions - some exchanges occur between them, but to no greater extent than occur between each and other institutions worldwide. This does, btw, bring up the issue of whether the American institution should have the University of Notre Dame entry, but it is so much better known that I think that would be ok.--XmarkX 03:08, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I found more info here stating that ND-Aus merely as "strong collegial links" with ND-US. Removing the "sister campus" language seems appropriate. --michael t zimmer 04:49, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Malloy

According to his University bio [1], Mallow is a full professor in Theology. There is no mention to him being on the Philosophy Department's faculty. --mtz206 19:50, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Marye Anne Fox

According to her bio at UCSD [2] and this press release [3], Marye Anne Fox went to Notre Dame College, not University of Notre Dame. --mtz206 22:16, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Football Championships

There seems to be a minor edit-war regarding the number of NCAA championships the football team has won: 8 vs. 11. According to this page they've won (or tied) 12 times. Most merchandise list 11 championships. Which is it? --mtz206

The eight figure comes from the fact that the Associated Press began their poll in 1936, and Notre Dame has won eight championships since then. Before the AP poll, though, Notre Dame was listed first in the nation three times by most of the ranking systems then in place. See this page for more information. Pmadrid 23:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I think, then, we should quote that "official" ND atheletic deparmtent source and say "Notre Dame generally is considered to have earned 11 consensus national titles (1924-29-30-43-46-47-49-66-73-77-88)." --mtz206

[edit] Code of Conduct and Catholic Tradition

I feel like somewhere in this article there should be a mention of the school's Catholic traditions leading to a code of conduct which is markedly different from that of other universities. One of the biggest differences (perhaps the only one worth mentioning) is that of "parietals" which demand that a given student not remain in the residence of a student of opposite gender past midnight.

I'm not going to try and make an obviously biased value judgement about them one way or another here, but they're definitely a difference from most other universities in the United States (and certainly abroad) that I feel is worth mentioning somewhere as being a unique characteristic of the school. --StarKruzr 23:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)StarKruzr

I have a hard time believing ND is particularly unique for having parietals. mtz206

Name some other schools which have them and aren't parochial? If there is a "parochial school" general entry, I withdraw my remark. --StarKruzr

Valparaiso University had similar rules when I was there; you don't have to go far to find it, it's only 50 miles from N.D.

[edit] Virgin Mary image

I question the addition of an image of the Blessed Virgin Mary to the page. It doesn't seen critical for an encyclopedic article on the University of Notre Dame, especially since there is a wikilink to the Virgin Mary as well as a translation of "notre dame" in the text itself. Certainly, it doesn't deserve such a prominent placement on the page. This article is about ND, not the Virgin Mary. mtz206 17:48, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

The photo is entirely appropriate. Notre Dame is named after the Blessed Virgin Mary like Harvard is named after John Harvard. The first image in the Harvard article is that of John Harvard. The first image in the Notre Dame article should be that of Our Lady. 172.164.149.82 03:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Rubbish. John Harvard actually had a personal connection to Harvard University (he founded its library collection). The first image on the Harvard page is of a statue actually on the Harvard campus of the university's first principal donor—the man most responsible for its foundation. The Virgin Mary had no connection herself with an American university founded eighteen hundred years after her death. When Stanford University begins with a picture of Leland Stanford, University of Florida begins with a map of the state of Florida and Miami University begins with a picture of a Miami Indian, then it might be appropriate to begin this article with a picture of the Virgin Mary. Until then, it's completely out of place.

A picture of a representation of Mary displayed prominently on the Notre Dame campus would be far more acceptable, though I think not where the current picture is displayed—with the picture of the main building there as well, the layout is far too cluttered. Binabik80 23:36, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Besides the stadium, the grotto is the most visited landmark on campus. It is also a pilgimmage site and the "soul" of the university. I also strongly disagree with the statement that Mary has no connection with the university. In addition to being named after her, it is by the intercession of Mary that the univeristy came into existence in the first place and the reason it continues to flourish. People who are not Catholic may not understand this, but this is fundamental to Notre Dame's existance.

The grotto picture is fine, though that particular part of the article still looks cluttered with three pictures in such close proximity.

No mention of a legend of Mary's intercession in the founding of Notre Dame appears in the article; I would find it very surprising if such a story had so far failed to have been mentioned here.

As far as Mary's influence being the reason it "continues to flourish"—well, based on the look on the face of the Catholic that I'm married to when I asked her about that, I'm going to conclude that it's not just non-Catholics who don't understand such a belief. So if it's all the same to everyone else, I think we'd be much better served if we refrained from using personal religious belief as a justification for our arguments.

Anything so "fundamental to Notre Dame's existance [sic]" should have plenty of documentation behind it; if reputable sources can be cited, I'd have no objection to noting it in the article, most likely in a sentence that begins "Many American Catholics believe ...", and references the topic covered by Blessed Virgin Mary—though I think it's very important in such cases to make sure that we make the distinction between the cult of the Virgin in Roman Catholic and Anglo-Catholic belief and Mary, the mother of Jesus herself. Binabik80 21:08, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic Students

I changed the percentage of students self-identifying as Catholics from 93% to 82% -- my information comes from Notre Dame's Office of Undergraduate Admissions: http://admissions.nd.edu/firstyear/statistics.cfm I only say this because it was previously changed from 95% to 85% then to 93%... the 82 figure is verifiable. Makrina

Perhaps this year's entering class, but not the student body as a whole. I go there and upwards of 86% of the undergraduate student body identifies itself as Catholic.

I am a May 2005 graduate, and I can assure you that for the four years of 2001 to 2005 that I attended the University, the percentage of Catholic students was consistantly between 82% and 85%. Unless you can provide a verifiable source for something in the 90s, it should remain at the University-provided statistic of 82. Makrina 20:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alexander Wilson (athlete)

Does anybody know anything about him and why the Alex Wilson Invitational was named after him? Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 13:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The 800, which features many of the nation's best half-milers, is named in honor of Alex Wilson, a former three-time All-America runner at Notre Dame, who later coached the Irish from 1950-72, leading the 1957 cross country squad to the NCAA championship. As a runner, Wilson was undefeated in his career in the quarter-mile and the half-mile, and won two Olympic medals (silver in the 800 meters, bronze in the 400 meters) for his native Canada at the 1932 Games in Los Angeles. He later was inducted into both the Canadian Track Hall of Fame (1954) and Helms Athletic Foundation Hall of Fame (1967), and was tapped as the NCAA Cross Country Coaches Association National Coach of the Year in 1972, before he passed away on Dec. 10, 1994 at the age of 87. - Found this at here. --MrCalifornia 00:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 00:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fan Sites

I've ranked the Fan Sites according to their Alexa traffic ratings.

1. ndnation (27,665)
2. uhnd (58,573)
3. blueandgold (360,614)
4. irishenvy (2,949,575)

I think irishenvy should probably be removed as it doesn't appear to be very popular, but I'd like a general consensus on what the outer limit should be. Otherwise there are a tens of ND related fan sites that would qualify. Maybe we should just do top 5 or top 3? --MrCalifornia 00:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd add http://bluegraysky.blogspot.com (Alexa in the 340,000 range) and remove Irishenvy, for obvious reasons. --John of New Yawk 07:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

According to WP:EL, only one fine site should be listed; I've trimmed the the list to 3.--mtz206 (talk) 00:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Fightin' Irish" nickname

Why two full paragraphs on the nickname? The stereotype for decades was that Irish people get drunk and fight. ND turned the derision into a mascot like "Yankee Doodle." Where's the mystery? --Tysto 15:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Top of the page

The appearance of the top of the page is decidedly ugly and very un-Notre Dame like. I am thinking of heading it with a photo instead of the rival University box on the right and contents box on the left. Anything would help, at this point. Let me know if you have any ideas. --Vaquero100 15:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Princeton Review

I find it interesting that when i listed the Princeton Review ranking of ND has the second most homophobic school in the country, It gets removed. But then someone added from the same survey that it is a "dream school". Is this a encyclopedia or a brochure?--Bud 05:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slumbering Echoes

Former sentences were:

However, recent historical study has shown that the Potawatomi Indians,
partly due to the strong faith of Leopold Pokagon, played an integral role
in the founding of Notre Dame both before and during Sorin's presence in Northern Indiana.
However, the Native American role in the founding of the school has been long forgotten, 
largely due to Sorin's questionable, and perhaps dishonest, dealings with the Potawatomi.
<ref>{{see Langer, Peter.  Slumbering Echoes: Potawatomi Indians, Catholic Priests, 
 and the University of Notre Dame du Lac, 1830-1852. (University of Notre Dame Archives,
 2006).}}</ref>

I've removed the NPOV, but a larger question remains, does this book/paper actually exist. I find no (non Wikipedia) reference to it via google: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Slumbering+Echoes%22+Potawatomi+Indians&num=100&hl=en&lr=&filter=0 There is a ND student named Peter Langer who works in the Dining Hall, but that appears to be the only Langer affiliated with the school http://apps.nd.edu/webdirectory/directory.cfm?cn=langer&submit3=Search

There has been no response on the authenticity of the work, so I removed the reference and sentence. -- KelleyCook 16:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

According to Peter Lysy (plysy@nd.edu) and W. Kevin Cawley (wcawley@nd.edu) from the ND Archives, this paper does exist. Thus, I believe that it should be included.

[edit] Intramural Football

The article states that Notre Dame is the only school besides the US service academies to offer full-pad, full-contact intramural football. Brigham Young University-Idaho (a sister school of BYU) in Rexburg, Idaho also offers full-pad and full-contact intramural football. --JonRidinger 23:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where the hell's that gold?

Anybody know the name of the UND Leprechaun? Trekphiler 09:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)