Talk:University of Maryland Baltimore County

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Contents 1 UMBC History? 2 Comma, or no comma? 3 Debate about UMBC Location 4 Laboratories 5 Campus Life 6 Probable copyright infringment 7 POV issues 8 Poll on University Naming Conventions 9 Disputed 10 School type 11 Attempt to reach consensus on location 12 My revisions 13 3rr for Slevit1? 14 Protected 15 How should UMBC be represented anyway? 16 motto 17 School Clubs

[edit] UMBC History?

Would anyone be willing to try to dig up some history and make a History section? It seems that every other university has a History section, and we don't really. --Tyler Beck

[edit] Comma, or no comma?

It has occured to me, after checking the UMBC home page, that UMBC does use a comma in its name (check the address near the bottom of the home page). The comma is also used in the name on UMBC's Blackboard Learning System page (which reqires login, so you'll have to take my word for it). If these are not mistakes than it would only make sense to move this page to University of Maryland, Baltimore County.-Jeff 20:28, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

University of Maryland, College Park and University of Maryland, Baltimore both have a comma. None of University of Maryland Baltimore County, University of Maryland Eastern Shore, nor University of Maryland University College have a comma. -Howardjp 23:00, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if you check the home page as Jeff indicated, you will find that University of Maryland, Baltimore County is indeed written with a comma. Whether this is their policy in general is still up to debate I suppose, but there is no debating what the home page indicates. - Gauge 00:13, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if you'd check my other comments on the matter, the Maryland Generally Assembly named it University of Maryland Baltimore County. -Howardjp 13:46, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Where are these other comments that you speak of? Could you provide a reference? Best regards, Gauge 17:14, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Here I present an argument for the use of the comma in the article name based on the principles outlined in Wikipedia:Naming_dispute. Let me make it clear from the beginning that I will not consent to the current article name given the evidence that has been presented for "no comma" thus far. I quote from the cited article:

Wikipedians should not seek to determine who is "right" or "wrong", nor to attempt to impose a particular name for POV reasons. They should instead follow the procedure below to determine common usage on an objective basis. By doing this, ideally, we can choose a name in a systematic manner without having to involve ourselves in a political dispute.

As this is a dispute over the naming of a proper noun, I follow the rules in the corresponding section. According to the "three key principles", the common name should take preference. A simple google search should convince anyone that the common name in use is "University of Maryland, Baltimore County" (as cited not just by UMBC itself, but also newspapers and other media). The "official name" (which I take to be that given by the state, is "University of Maryland Baltimore County", as Howard has already pointed out. In case the common name is "prevalent", then the common name (that with the comma) should take precedence. It appears from the same search results that the common name is indeed prevalent.

If one is still not convinced that this name should be used, move on to the third criterion, that being how the subject identifies themselves. As has already been pointed out in the style guide and the official website, the university wishes to be known as the "University of Maryland, Baltimore County". According to the "Criterion" table, the name with the comma scores 2 points, whereas the name without the comma scores 1 (being the official name). Furthermore, it does not appear that the name with the comma violates any of the additional "subjective" criteria. With all of this in mind, I can only conclude that the name with the comma must be the correct convention for this article, and I will not consider another name until new evidence comes to light. Thank you for your time. - Gauge 03:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Let me address each of those points. First, the Google search you post is inconslusive. The CS department is the third link and uses "University of Maryland in Baltimore County." The sixth link is for the Retrievers and uses "University of Maryland Baltimore County" (no comma). The University itself ignores the style guide. The ninth link is a user page, showing "University of Maryland--Baltimore County" (note the hyphen). Regarding newspapers and media, a Google search of news sites shows it may be used with a comma, without a comma, or with a hypen depending on the reporting paper's own style guide. A more useful measurement of most common usage is made impossible by a lack of literal search engines. It's also not hard to say the self-identification is, in fact, also without the comma. The University is an organizational unit of USM which is, itself, a part of the State of Maryland. As such, the State's identification is, in fact, self-identification. This is verified by this page from the Maryland State Archives [1]. I elsewhere mentioned that if UMBC wished to use a different name, a filing is in order. This has to be more than a simple lack of knowledge though, since they did file a request to use UMBC. Finally, and I suspect this is the reason this is so contentious, UMCP and UMB get to use the simpler name to designate and allow them to share the long historical tie between the two campuses as one university in two places. UMBC does not share in that history and should not claim to be a party to it. -Howardjp 13:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I did not find the google search to be inconclusive, as a majority of the links in the top results refer to UMBC with the comma instead of the alternatives. I find the argument for self-indentification based on being part of the State rather dubious; my understanding of the situation is that the university is an autonomous entity within the system, whose views and positions do not always reflect those of the State of Maryland. Thus, this seems to be a case of identification of a subordinate by a superior, rather than self-identification. However, the most important new fact to me was that UMBC has not filed to change their name to that with the comma, but has filed to use the name UMBC instead of their full name. This implies that they indeed identify themselves with the comma-less name, but choose to stylize their name differently. In this case, both the official and self-identification appear to refer to the comma-less name, so I agree that the comma-less name is the correct one to use here. - Gauge 04:24, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Howard, what a bunch of hooey. The pro-comma version is the clear "winner" according to every group of name tests in the Naming Dispute checklist ("common name" trumps "official name"). The UMBC Style Guide is doubtless the final word on "self-identification" -- it's published by the school itself. -- tooki 03:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Now you are just mangling facts to get your way. The self-identification on this matter is clearly without the comma. -James Howard (talk/web) 12:36, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

You should also note, that of the 100-odd pages linking here, the only pages using the comma-version (or, for that matter, "UMBC") are User and Talk pages, neither of which are required to conform to style-guidelines. It would seem that the rest of the Wikipedia agrees that the winner is without the comma. -James Howard (talk/web) 12:46, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Mangling facts? This serious accusation you need to support with facts. In actual fact, if you look at the Wikipedia:naming_conflict#Proper_nouns page yourself, and follow its guidelines, it's clear that the "official" name is not necessarily the "correct" one for wikipedia:

Proper nouns

The three key principles are:

• The most common use of a name takes precedence;
• If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names;
• If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:

• Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations)
• Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution)
• Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term)

As for how the school self-identifies: I am a UMBC student. I see how the school "self-identifies" all the time. The primary self-identification is "UMBC", followed by the +comma version of the name (most departments and offices comply with the UMBC style guide; each department makes its own websites and paperwork so the less-attentive ones may make mistakes). Since Wikipedia prefers article names to be the spelled-out name, then the "common name" -- the +comma version -- trumps the acronym "UMBC". By the criteria listed in the naming conflicts page, the +comma version trumps the -comma version. This has been established by others as well. You might possibly be technically correct on the legal name of the institution, but the Wikipedia guidelines make it very clear that the official name is not necessarily the correct name for a Wikipedia article. (Whether the legal name is the "official" name is yet another question.)

Let's go down those 6 bullet points above:

1. "most common" -- UMBC is the most common, +comma is the most-common spelled out version. All official school documents use this form, so do official government sites like USM. Google isn't useful, since it doesn't do literal searches, and besides, much of what is written is paper-only and doesn't get posted online. Inter-wiki links are strongly biased towards whatever the current article name is, so useless also. (Let's ignore the acronym from here on, since Wiki doesn't want them.)

2. "if common conflicts with official, use common" -- the common one is the +comma version. Common trumps official.

3. "if common/official isn't prevalent, follow self-ID" -- the common (+comma) version is prevalent, and happens to concur with the self-ID.

4. "in common usage in English" the +comma version is, throughout all official school publications, etc. It is also the form used by the USM.

5. "official name" -- here we disagree. You may be technically correct, but that is disputable, since even the USM uses the +comma version.

6. "how subject describes itself" -- this one is indisputably the +comma version, it's even spelled out prescriptively in a style guide.

As for the links within wikipedia: well duh, most wiki users are linking to the article name to prevent redirects! There is always a strong bias towards existing article names, to prevent redirects. This makes linkbacks an extremely unreliable source for disputed name resolution.

Something for everyone here to consider: websites and departmental publications may not have been authored by people who took care to notice things like comma usage. They should therefore carry less weight than a document like the Style Guide, which was designed specifically to address this kind of issue.

A perfect example of "official" versus "correct for wikipedia": company names. The article for Microsoft is named just that -- one word. Microsoft's legal name is "Microsoft Corporation". Apple Computer's legal name is "Apple Computer, Inc.". General Electric's legal name is the "General Electric Company". Kroger's name is "The Kroger Company". Clearly, the legal name is not the final word when it comes to Wikipedia article titles. (There are, without doubt, some exceptions to this, such as Safeway Inc., but the prevalent method seems to be the common/trade name, not the legal one.)

I think that is the key argument here: that the legal name isn't always the right name for Wikipedia. In fact, that is only the case if the legal name also happens to also be the common name.

-- tooki 14:43, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Some challenges to your points (1) I think we agree on; (3), (6), and (4) are both false. I've already demonstrated that the self identification is comma-less. Additionally, real "official documents," like diplomas are comma-less. University brouchers are not official documents and should not be used to justify anything but the quality of their printer...but if you want, I've got the Admissions Guidelines from Dept. of Public Policy right in front of me (mailed 8/19/2005). And it is comma-less. In my application packet, they included several brouchers. A third use the comma, a third don't, and a third use both depending on what page you're on. Their inconsistancy is amazing. Now, while you suggest that websites and departmental publications are not to be trusted because they ignored the style guide. Equally valid is the statement that the Style Guide, a product of the PR department, is untrustworthy because they failed to do their basic research or they intentionally ignored it to lay a fraudulent claim to historical status it lacks. -James Howard (talk/web) 15:10, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

You can't say that 3, 4, and 6 are false -- there's no way to argue that they are. Go to UMBC one of these days, and look at everything there that has been published by the school. You will find that the +comma version is by far more prevalent. (And in point 4, I mention that the USM itself uses +comma -- you can't deny that, it's right on the USM website.) As for PUP's admission docs: then they're in violation of the style guide. Sloppy, for sure. (As I said, departments may have been sloppy in application of the Style Guide.) As for calling the Style Guide "untrustworthy" etc: I'm pretty darned sure that the Style Guide has been put by more than one committee that's looked it over and discussed it very carefully. The whole POINT of the Style Guide is to offer a definitive form to prevent such inconsistency!! Furthermore, does it not strike you as just a tad pretentious (not to mention downright freakish) that you seem to claim that you know these things better than the school itself? And finally, even IF (and I am not 100% convinced of it) the school's legal name lacks the comma, where exactly is it required that it use that form? Countless organizations advertise and self-refer by a form of their name other than their legal name. (And I'm not even talking about DBA -- you don't have to file with the state to omit the "Inc" in your name, for example.) Why should UMBC have any different rights? Clearly the school WANTS to be known as UMBC, or the +comma version. Who are you to tell it it can't do what countless others do? Who are you to decide that its legal name is more important for an encyclopedia article than its common (established!), self-referrent (established), and desired (established) name?!? (P.S. Why don't some other people chime in here, to get some further opinions on this?) -- tooki 21:23, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I am not claiming to know better than the university. I am claiming the State knows better than the university, and has made itself more than clear on the matter. Here's a list of examples that more than proves this:

In 1997, the last time any of the schools named "Univesity of Maryland..." were renamed, there was a law (entitled Public Institutions of Higher Education - Renaming), approved by the legislature and signed by the governor. Some of the only changes were moving "University of Maryland College Park" to "University of Maryland, College Park." Additional changes were made moving "University of Maryland at Baltimore" to "University of Maryland, Baltimore." This is not just an interpretation. The Maryland Archives, which has a list of all historical names for each state unit notes this for UMB and UMCP. Note, it records no addition of a comma to UMBC's name.

But you say, wait, other schools have changed their name since 1997. And I note, yes, Salisbury went from "Salisbury State University" to "Salisbury University" in 2001. Hey, the Archives seems to agree. How did they do that, you say? The legislature did it! Here's the act, entitled Higher Education - Salisbury State University - Renaming.

But what about Coppin? Didn't they do something? Yes, they did! Look, the Archives say they went from "Coppin State College" to "Copping State University." How did this happen? You guessed it! The House and Senate had a vote. (Note that lovely part where it is even noted that it is sponsored by the Appropriations Chairman at the request of USM).

But in all this, no bill has been passed (and as near as I can tell, none as been introduced, but my research on this is less complete). This is not a subtle change. It is abundantly clear that the legislature knew what it was doing. It is also abundantly clear where the authority lies on this. After all, if it could be changed by the PR department, why go through the trouble of a signature? Is the comma itself important? The legislature seems to think so. The 1997 bill was a lot of paper to print for something they didn't think meaningful. More importantly, the intent of the legislature is clear. UMBC is to remain commaless. -James Howard (talk/web) 22:39, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

The most authoritative document available is the UMBC Style Guide (http://www.umbc.edu/umbcstyle/writing_stand.pdf) which says this:

Campus Name
The four-letter acronym, UMBC, is how we want to be known. The university’s full name — University of Maryland, Baltimore County — should be used when there is a need to be explicit about the name of the institution, e.g., when writing for an audience outside of the region. Even in these instances, the acronym should be used after the first reference. If UMBC is used throughout text, spell out when included in contact information.
Do not use University of Maryland; University of Maryland, Baltimore Campus; or University of Maryland at Baltimore County.

Therefore, the article should be swapped to UMBC (it won't let me), and the name should be listed with a comma, if spelled out at all. -- tooki 20:15, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I happen to agree with using the comma in the name, per UMBC's style guide. Is there a wikipedia policy pertaining to this issue? Which should take preference: the state's official name per the documentation below, or the stylized version that the university wishes to be known by? I think there are arguments for both sides. Since Howard and Boothy have been resisting this change, I request that they leave their comments on the matter here for discussion. - Gauge 06:12, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

My comments are listed on this page. For more detailed information, please see Talk:University of Maryland, College Park. -Howardjp 12:21, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

From Talk:University of Maryland, College Park

The enabling statute (Educational Article, Title 12, Section 101, irrelevant material cut):

(b) Definitions.- In this title the following words have the meanings indicated.

(4) "Constituent institutions", "institutions", or "campuses" means the following public senior higher education institutions under the jurisdiction of the Board of Regents:

(i) University of Maryland, Baltimore;

(ii) University of Maryland Baltimore County;

(iii) University of Maryland, College Park;

(iv) University of Maryland Eastern Shore;

(v) University of Maryland University College;

(vi) Bowie State University;

(vii) Coppin State University;

(viii) Frostburg State University;

(ix) Salisbury University;

(x) Towson University; and

(xi) University of Baltimore.

(6) "University" or "University of Maryland" or "University of Maryland System" means the University System of Maryland.

Also, please see the Maryland Manual from the Maryland State Archives. -Howardjp 13:37, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I feel that this page should reflect the image that UMBC wishes to portray. To this extent, the most difinitive source for their name would be their style guide. UMBC clearly wishes to be known foremost as UMBC, but then as University of Maryland, Baltimore County. They make clear reference to the ways in which they do not want to be known, as well as the fact that a comma should be included in the non-abbreviated version. I have changed the article accordingly and will continue to do so if it is changed back. Slevit1 02:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

If UMBC wished to portray their name with a comma, they probably would have filed a request to do so with the government of Maryland. The fact that they have not indicates that they self-identify with the comma-less name. The "official" name according to the State of Maryland is the comma-less name. The inconsistency in how the different departments identify the University suggests that the only party which has any authority in self-identification is the administration, and they apparently want (or at least accept) the comma-less spelling. Personally, I wonder how much contact there is between administration and PR on this point. Also, keep in mind what Howardjp said about why the State of Maryland has chosen the names this way: the comma indicates something about the historical status of the school that the State of Maryland considers important enough to preserve. Furthermore, it is not clear to me that the "common" spelling of the name uses a comma. - Gauge 03:06, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

The Catonsville vs. Arbutus argument is hilarious, but there is no way on earth it is in Baltimore. In fact, if you drive north on 95, you can clearly see where UMBC is and a mile or two later is the Baltimore City line. -Howardjp 22:16, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Debate about UMBC Location

I changed the location of UMBC from Arbutus, Maryland to Baltimore, Maryland. The campus's zipcode of 21250 is not from the nearby town of Arbutus but rather Baltimore. This can be seen on the main page of the UMBC website[2], as well as checking usps.gov[3] to see what city the zip falls under.

21250 is a "unique" ZIP code: it is a dedicated one for UMBC. Note that the USPS only approves the city of Baltimore in mailing addresses -- Catonsville is specifically listed as not acceptable. Until UMBC had its own ZIP code, it used the Catonsville ZIP code of 21228, and listed its location as Catonsville as well. Nonetheless, I edited the article (but not the facts box) to reflect the physical location: straddling the Catonsville/Arbutus line. -- tooki 20:36, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

UMBC is however, much closer to Arbutus then it is to Baltimore, which I do belive is the definition we should be using for location.-Jeff 20:19, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Though close to the town of Arbutus, it is not located within the towns limits and does not carry an Arbutus addess.-student

It's interesting that Catonsville's "official" website claims that UMBC is located in Catonsville. And there's no comma?! Jussenadv 20:08, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Is there a wikipedia standard for locations of schools? I'm sure that many schools claim to be from the closest city rather than the closest town, and I think that this is fair practice since it gives the public a better idea of where they are located, especially if people are not familiar with the area. - Gauge 00:17, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree that few have heard of Arbutus; however Catonsville appears to have its own comprehensive website with many schools listed, perhaps a change to Catonsville would be best. Jussenadv 23:22, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Wherever it is, it is not in Baltimore - it specifically calls itself by a name which excludes it being in Baltimore - the city of Baltimore is not in Baltimore County. john k 03:41, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Going with the mailing address would be the best standard to go by as it cannot be argued. --student

Actually, mailing addresses can be argued. There are zip codes that have multiple potential mailing addresses. I would suggest going with the Census-designated place, if that's possible. Especially since in this case the mailing address is misleading - UMBC is not in Baltimore. john k 14:45, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Arbutus would appear to be correct in that case, although I can't find a map that specifically shows it. john k 14:48, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Catonsville is correct. http://www.mdp.state.md.us/msdc/census/cen2000/maps/PLC00/bacoplc.pdf john k 14:44, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Catonsville is NOT correct. UMBC's address is 1000 Hilltop Circle, Baltimore, MD 21250. I fail to see where the debate lies. I've changed the page accordingly. As with the comma in the name, I will continue to change this anytime someone feels the urge to change it back. Slevit1 20:42, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I see that you are acting in good faith, but I promise to revert your edits to the location along with everyone else. The issue is clear: the ZIP code and postal address do not always indicate the physical location of the place, as illustrated by census maps and the University's name itself! I have been there myself, and I have seen firsthand that it is not located in the city of Baltimore. Maybe it will be in 50 years due to sprawl, but not now. - Gauge 03:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

And I promise to revert your edits as well. I'm glad that you have been there yourself, I am currently the student leader of the ambassador program, so I know a little bit about the school. The University's name is Baltimore County, not Catonsville, so I don't know how you'd come up with your argument. Their address says "Baltimore, MD," not "Catonsville, MD." UMBC is NOT in Catonsville or Arbutus. However, Catonsville and Arbutus ARE located in Baltimore. Maybe not the city, but still Baltimore. The same is true of UMBC.

Uhm, neither Arbutus nor Catonsville are located in Baltimore City. They are located in Baltimore County. And Baltimore City is not in Baltimore County. They are merely adjacent. -Howardjp 03:32, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

No, they're not in Baltimore city, never said they were. They are, however, in Baltimore. Baltimore is not just the city...it's the county as well, why do I need to explain this. You can continue to revert as vandalism if you want, and I will continue to revert as well. As you are wrong on both counts (location and comma), it is you that is vandilizing.

Proof that I am wrong on neither is all over this page. Perhaps you should consider reading it. -James Howard (talk/web) 12:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Slevit1: The school is physically located in Catonsville. As I already explained above, the mailing address is not relevant to the physical location. To be clear: UMBC does not necessarily belong to Catonsville the unincorporated community, but it does belong to the Catonsville census-designated place (someone posted a census map around here to show that this is the case). In the Catonsville, Maryland article, Catonsville is defined as either the town or the CDP. It is true that UMBC is located in Baltimore County, but the CDP description is more accurate because the CDP is a region of Baltimore County. Also, please sign your edits in the future. - Gauge 02:43, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Just a note to all:In Maryland (w00t) we use any town in Baltimore County to be in a Baltimore mailing address... so clears it all up... maybe...--IAMTHEEGGMAN (talk) 23:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is so silly. UMBC's postal address almost since its inception was the entrance at the District Courthouse on Wilkens Avenue. For years the mailing address on _everything_ was 5401 Wilkens Avenue, Catonsville, MD 21228-5398. Just because they got their own zip code to be fancy does not mean that there is suddenly a debate about whether they are in Catonsville or Arbutus. --Vees 19:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Laboratories

These links all come from this website: [4] Jussenadv 12:20, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Campus Life

It's certainly not my place since I'm not a actually student at UMBC, but I would really like to see this section expanded. Though the last version of this section raised some valid points, there's probably a better way to accurately portray campus life. Jussenadv 00:50, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

"Hundreds of university-sanctioned clubs and organizations are present on campus to build a sense of community." How many of these are actually active? As for the points raised in the earlier version of the campus life section, the self-segregation of various ethnicities on campus appeared to be fact to me while I was there, but one can argue that this happens in the population in general and is not a trait specific to this university. I believe that it does possess the atmosphere of a community college, but with significantly higher academic standards (although I was still a bit disappointed with the academic intensity of the computer science program as one of my majors; there should really be a separate Software Engineering major, but I digress). Just some thoughts from an alumnus, - Gauge 00:07, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Probable copyright infringment

I was going to agree with Gauge about some of the really well-written changes that have taken place to this article over the past few days; unfortunately, it looks like User:Legazy has created a copyright violation similar in nature, but to a much larger extent, as User:UMBC Web Team. The entirety of his 5:20 April 1st addition to the student life section is a blatant copy of the UMBC fact set [5]. Not only is this bad form, but the website User:Legazy has chosen to copy from is dated 2002. We will have to revert if Legazy does not provide ownership of this material or does not make the necessary changes. This is something I really do not want to do, the UMBC article is looking so nice, but it's standard wikipedia policy to immediately revert once copyrighted material has been inserted. Why not write your own material? Jussenadv 04:00, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

According to policy, you can use copyrighted material if (1) you have permission, and (2) you site your source. Therefore, unless you have consulted me User:Legazy about permission, I would not be quick to point the finger as to copyright infringement.

You're absolutely right about copyrighted material (you certainly know what you're doing). If I remember this case correctly (it was a month ago) you had not cited the website where this copyrighted material came from; by your standards that is copyright infringment. It is also questionable that you have the authority to use Princeton's material. This is why I chose to revert in the first place. Jussenadv 00:50, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Legazy? You've implied that you had permission for this material but haven't re-inserted the information; let me know.Jussenadv 19:26, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Unless [User:UMBC Web Team] is the author of any information placed on the princeton review website [6] , most of the changes made by this user are copyright violations. Most obvious remaining example is:

The campus climate is friendly and energetic and there are more than 180 different student groups, including Greek organizations, recreational sports clubs such as skydiving and crew, community outreach efforts such as Habitat for Humanity and campus events including lectures, films, concerts and plays.

Unless this user can show that they are indeed the author of this material, the article should be reverted to March 23, 2005 in order to remove all contributions by this user. This would be unfortunate because many valid, and well written, changes have been made to UMBC's biology and other departments since that time. Jussenadv 23:34, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have reverted to Howardjp's March 23rd, 2005 version in order to remove the copyrighted material placed by User UMBC Web Team. I doubt that UMBC Web Team is the original author of this material. If I am incorrect, I apologize. Jussenadv 00:47, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV issues

Eliminated this portion of the text, which was highly POV and non-encyclopedic:

The campus is almost completely bereft of character, and is closer in ambiance and feel to a community college than anything approaching a resident university. The quality of the faculty is high, but students tend to be somewhat pedestrian. The extremely diverse student body offers an opportunity for cross-cultural enrichment which is happily ignored by self-segregating groups of students of all ethnicities.

Almost all of the students filter in from the surrounding 25 miles or so, and many of them are commuters, which doesn't contribute to the sense of community that UMBC is so sorely lacking.

On the plus side, academics are usually pretty good (for technical subjects), and the instruction somewhat compensates for the lack of a creative, vibrant peer-community, which would be the key trait of the 'little MIT' that UMBC earnestly strives to become, however misguidedly.

Howdy: I am a UMBC student and I created this page. The revision history is very interesting. I obviously agree that the 'highly POV' material is exactly that, although I'm not convinced that the current text is less so. What do experienced wikipedians think? -- Rob

The text that I removed was put back in by User:Deadbarnacle. I've removed it again, but I would like to address the topic. However, the original text sounded insulting (at least to me--and I'm not a student at UMBC) and was clearly POV. It sounds like it was written by someone who *is* a student at UMBC and is not happy with their experience there; if that is the case, I would suggest transferring out instead of bashing the school on Wikipedia. This isn't the place for personally-oriented reviews of your academic experiences. Darkcore 23:56, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"This isn't the place for personally-oriented reviews of your academic experiences." It is the wikipedia policy to include all relevant points of view and factual information to support them, even if they are not favorable to the reputation of the school. There are plenty of good things to say about UMBC as well as bad. Let's try to keep it balanced. - Gauge 20:06, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am removing this line from the chess section "Dr. Alex Sherzer, one of the previous players on the chess team, was accused of traveling across state lines to solicit sex from a minor." because it seems to me to be off topic. The questionable exploits of some random chess player on a team doesn't seem to add any useful info about the subject. If it was some one of more importance, perhaps the founder or current leader, I can see the information being more relevant. - Guardian 03:16 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poll on University Naming Conventions

A new survey has been created to resolve whether or not the University System of Maryland campus in College Park should be refered to simply as "University of Maryland". This poll also proposes an amendment to Wikipedia:Naming conventions to address similar ambiguities at other schools. Dragons flight 18:48, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

• Please note that this poll will be closing after about 1 more day, and the issue of what to call the University of Maryland is still pretty close. So if you have an opinion on that issue, now would be a good time to visit the page and say so. This poll is now closed. Dragons flight 18:25, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

Is the university located inside the bounds of the Catonsville CDP? (Edit: Yes, it is) And even so, Baltimore County should be mentioned as it is the only municipal government that the university is located in! WhisperToMe 20:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Now why not add "Baltimore County" to the location part of the template? WhisperToMe 23:14, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd guess because it is pretty obvious the University of Maryland Baltimore County is in Baltimore County. Just a guess -Howardjp 00:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, now that the "Baltimore County" part is in the main body of text, why not state on the Location part "Catonsville CDP of Baltimore County, Maryland, USA" or "Catonsville, Baltimore County, Maryland, USA"? Yeah, I know it seems a little bit redundant, but I feel like the same thing should happen in Towson University's page as that University is also in Baltimore County. WhisperToMe 04:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with WhisperToMe on having a more accurate location description. I have modified the article accordingly with hope that others will agree. - Gauge 20:02, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The infobox should be summary information. It is not necessary to duplicate detailed information provided in the body, especially when nobody gives a shit whether or not Catonsville is incorporated except for the poor bastards who would have their taxes increased by such an act. -Howardjp 20:08, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

In a previous edit summary you said "Catonsville is a good 10 minute drive away". According to your own words, UMBC is not located in Catonsville. It is, however, located in the Catonsville CDP, and it is not located in Arbutus since it is not even in the Arbutus CDP. I'm not going to change it back again right now, but I think your revert was inadequately justified. - Gauge 20:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I do think Arbutus is closer to correct, but the University considers itself in Catonsville. I checked into it and that change was incorrect. Either way, it doesn't change the fact nobody cares about the legal status of Catonsville. And I am well known as a stickler for these sorts of things. -Howardjp 23:23, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

There are people who are sticklers for those sorts of things. This is an encyclopedia. In encyclopedias people are supposed to be precise. In addition, many people assume they live in X when they really live in Y. For instance, many people say they are from Katy, Texas when most of them actually live somewhere between Katy and Houston. In informal speech it is okay to say "John is from Katy" even when he is technically in unincorporated Harris County, but in an encyclopedia it is not okay to say so.

Fair enough, and the reason the information should be in the main article, but that doesn't change the fact it does not belong in the infobox. -Howardjp 12:12, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The information is now in the main article. Is everyone discussing here happy? (I'm not even going to consider people like Boothy who revert without a better explanation than "what a poor decision"). - Gauge 02:10, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

and any time this sillyness is reinstated it will be removed, i am not satasified with the change, i see no reason as of yet to why it should be changed at all. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 02:15, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You are not a dictator here, and so far you have given no explanation for your reverts besides that it doesn't suit your taste. If you have a rational argument for your position, please state it here. Otherwise I will consider these reverts vandalism. - Gauge 02:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Boothy, it would be helpful if you could explain why the reasons provided in this section have not been enough to convince you to at least allow us to specify the census-designated place as the location in the article text. Regarding "revisionist geography", all of the maps that I have referenced so far indicate that UMBC is not located in Catonsville, but it is located in the general Catonsville area; in other words, in the Catonsville CDP. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. - Gauge 17:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

In addition to that, the "boundaries" of the Catonsville CDP were made by the U.S. government for Census purposes, NOT by the Maryland government or anyone in Maryland. WhisperToMe 07:38, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

That is so irrelevant, I am left clueless as to why you brought it up. -Howardjp 12:12, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

No it's not. What I am telling you is that it should be indicated that it is in the Catonsville CDP... because since there are no other "official" boundaries, the location would go into question otherwise. WhisperToMe 16:40, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

As I said, ever so eloquently before...

The infobox should be summary information. It is not necessary to duplicate detailed information provided in the body, especially when nobody gives a shit whether or not Catonsville is incorporated except for the poor bastards who would have their taxes increased by such an act. -Howardjp 20:08, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

-Howardjp 16:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Someone cares and that is enough, one. At least "CDP" should be put in the infobox. See, it can be "disputable" to say "Catonsville", while it is not disputable to say "Catonsville CDP". Many unincorporated communities often are served by different post offices. Some areas that can be considered in community A have a postal address of community B, and so on. It should at the minimum say "Catonsville CDP, Maryland". However, County can be abbreviated to "Co", so it's not a biggie including that. WhisperToMe 08:16, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, CDP boundaries can change from census to census. WhisperToMe 00:02, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] School type

Why is the school type "University of Maryland"? Shouldn't it be something like "state university"? WhisperToMe 14:41, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

It is University System of Maryland. I chose to do this because state universities in Maryland fall under two categories. The larger of the two is institutions of the University System of Maryland. This includes the entire list on that page and in the template at the bottom of UMBC's page. The second type are independent public institutions (Morgan State University and St. Mary's College of Maryland). Those are both listed as public independent on their pages. Similar work could be done with University of California and California State University, and the four state university systems in Texas. -Howardjp 15:00, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

There are more than four state university systems in Texas. UH Collegian 17:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I only knew of four (Texas A&M, University of Texas, Texas State, and University of Houston). Further information is welcome.  :) -Howardjp 19:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The other two systems are: University of North Texas System and Texas Tech University System. These two are smaller than the four you mentioned. Their schools are well-known in Texas as well, but not the systems. The rest of the schools in Texas not in these six systems are "independent", I guess that's what you would call it. UH Collegian 19:05, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, but "University System of Maryland" sounds more like something to put in a "university system" column than a type. WhisperToMe 18:03, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree, since University System of Maryland could be a private university system for someone not from Maryland. University System of Maryland doesn't denote anything being a state university system since there are private university systems in the United States. UH Collegian 18:20, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Because not all universities exist as part of a system, perhaps phrasing it as "Public, University System of Maryland" is in order. -Howardjp 19:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Attempt to reach consensus on location

So far WhisperToMe and I have been in favor of indicating that UMBC is located in the census-designated place of Catonsville rather than Catonsville itself. I believe that Howardjp was trying to compromise when he indicated that such additional information belongs in the article text rather than the infobox. I would agree to such a compromise and I hope WhisperToMe would also. It has the advantages of keeping the infobox information simple while providing additional details in the article text. Comments? - Gauge 17:41, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

The information absolutely has no place in the infobox. That said, I am inclined to say it doesn't belong in the main article body either (same goes for the Towson article). It's irrelevant. Whether or not the school resides in a municipality or not does not have a significant effect on the school itself. If I want more information on Catonsville, I can click on it and get it at that article. If there were important interactions between the school and the government (compare to the zoning situation between GWU and the District of Columbia), it would be useful. But in this case, and the towson case, it simple adds unnecessary clutter to the article. -Howardjp 20:28, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate to place these details about the location of UMBC in the Catonsville article, then? - Gauge 04:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

That's a little vague. Let's see some sample language. -Howardjp 12:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

To appear in the section Catonsville#Education: "The University of Maryland Baltimore County is located approximately ten minutes driving time away from the community, but still within the Catonsville census-designated place and near the community of Arbutus." - Gauge 00:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I would drop ""census-designated place" in that sentence since the article introduction makes it clear it is a CDP. Then it's just redundant. I would do this: "The [[University of Maryland Baltimore County]] is located in Catonsville near the community of [[Arbutus, Maryland|Arbutus]]." But I think either would be acceptable. A reference to CCBC also needs to be added, but let's figure this out and use it as a model first. -Howardjp 00:22, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I was attempting to convey that it is not in the community of Catonsville but is in the CDP, although I'm not sure whether we can make a clear distinction because of its unincorporated status. Besides this point, I like what you suggested. I only noticed today that the Catonsville article defines Catonsville alternatively as the community and as the CDP, so "Catonsville" in the infobox is fine by me. - Gauge 01:01, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My revisions

I've decided that I'm not going to bother signing my revisions (you may have already noticed this). I will not comment on the the location issue or the comma issue anymore. I have made my opinions known and I'm not going to argue it further. So what will I do? I will continue to revert the page back whenever someone decides to change what I have done. If a reasonable change occurs, I will of course leave it. But, if there are changes to the location, comma, steam tunnels, or anything else, it's gonna be revereted right back. Continue to call them vandalism if you want, but that does not change the fact that I will revert it back. I could argue just as easily that you are vandalizing. I am a student at the school and an employee of the school...don't bother editing the page if you are neither. Slevit1 01:38, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't tell people that. You wouldn't want people to think you're indicative of the quality of education at UMBC. -James Howard (talk/web) 02:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Slevit1: If this is really your stance on the issue then you have made things impossible to move forward toward a consensus. Consensus cannot be reached if you are not willing to discuss your edits with us. Your credentials mean absolutely nothing here; we all have just as much a right to the page as you do. Given that you have stated that you will not even discuss things further with us, it is more likely that you will be viewed as the vandal. I hope that you will come around and try to work productively here again. - Gauge 05:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I do not think it is possible to reach a concensus on the topics that I have issues with. They keep going back and forth, some people supporting me, some not. I have made my points clear and you have done the same. So, I will make each one one final time.

===Address===

Their mailing address indicated Baltimore, MD. Nowhere does UMBC advertise its being in Catonsville and the zip code is unique to UMBC. Although it is not in Baltimore City, UMBC is still in Baltimore. I have read your arguments and it seems that either Catonsville or Baltimore could proabably be used accurately. Therefore, we must determine which should be used on this page. Since UMBC clearly prefers to use Baltimore, and it is not incorrect to use, it seems to me that this is the one that should be used. To summarize this...The address says Baltimore, UMBC says Baltimore, it's not wrong to use Baltimore, I will continue to revert to Baltimore.

===Comma===

Again, either one could probably be used so the argument comes down to which should be used. UMBC clearly wants their name to be written "University of Maryland, Baltimore County" (if not simply UMBC). This is a page about the school, why not make it consistent with the school's wishes and how it would be seen advertised on any promotional literature?

I think i'm being perfectly reasonable in these arguments and my reasonings for them. No matter how many times this goes back and forth, my views will remain the same. It's a waste of time for me to keep this argument going, so as I said before, I won't. I will simply revert the page. Also as I said before, I will not revert any changes that actually add to the page, just these that we have been discussing.

Final topic...onto the Tunnels which Howard decided to change. That was the perfect place for a warning at it will remain in place. The page has apparently been edited by a couple of students trying to share the places that students are not supposed to access while lacking in useful information that this page should display. Students are not supposed to be in any of the tunnels on campus, but a large portion of the page covers them. This skews the page in a wrong direction. As they are, however, part of the campus, I did not delete the section altogether. Eventually, once I find more time, I'll add more useful information to the page. Slevit1 20:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You're all gonna love my newest edit...which I will, of course, continue to revert if you decide to change it. It is UMBC's official logo. I don't know where the other one came from, but it's gone now. Again, I changed it because it is a page about the school. This is the logo the school uses and this is the one anyone who visits or recieves information from the school will see. Therefore, this is the most logical one to have on the page and the one that would be most useful to anyone seeking information on the school. Slevit1 20:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 3rr for Slevit1?

How does one request a banning? -James Howard (talk/web) 21:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You would need to make a listing at WP:AN/3RR in the future. By the way, I've protected this article so that you all can resolve this here on the talk page. Dmcdevit·t 01:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

There's no discussion here so I'm unprotecting. Please remember to act in a civil manner, to resolve differences on this talk page, and to avoid edit wars. If you need to revert an article more than once a day, it's a sign that there's a problem and you should be discussing what you're doing and making an honest effort to meet objections. I'll be watching. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 11:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I've already made an honest effort to explain why they are wrong (see one section up). They don't seem to want to listen and therefore, an edit war occurs. I feel that to repeat the same point over and over again would be useless. This is why discussion has not continued. It was a noble effort though, having the page locked. Very tricky, however unsuccessful it may have been. Slevit1 05:46, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I've listened. I have also conclusively demonstrated why your edits are wrong. This is not simply a matter of opinion; Wikipedia is supposed to be a journal of fact and your edits are not based in fact. -James Howard (talk/web) 12:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

As you are wrong, you could not have possibly conclusively demonstrated that I am wrong. My edits are based in fact. UMBC is NOT located in Catonsville. Being located adjacent to something does not make you part of it. UMBC is also adjacent to Arbutus, but it's not in Arbutus. I'm sorry that you think Baltimore County is too broad, but UMBC happens to be in Baltimore County!! And, not surprisingly, Baltimore County is part of BALTIMORE!68.48.93.15 00:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Rather than being a jerk, as I previously had posted, I would like to invite you to again try to make your case. You have failed to present any evidence of your claim. Were you able to justify your position, you would be taken seriously. -James Howard (talk/web) 03:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

Article is now protected due to recurrent vandalism. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 08:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

This article currently uses Template:USM Taxobox, a fork of Template:USM taxobox in which the location is hardcoded to Catonsville, Maryland, USA. As a result my changing Catonsville to Baltimore County in the infobox had no effect. I was proposing BC on the grounds it matches the University name and because more precision (Catonsville CDP, Baltimore Co) requires too much space for an infobox, is too much information for a summary, and is unnecessary as it is stated in the text. Rd232 ^talk 13:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Baltimore County is too broad, as that is also where Towson University is. -James Howard (talk/web) 21:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, there is no vandalism, simply a difference of opinion. In this case, Howard happens to be wrong. If you want to protect the page, protect it with the correct information!!

[edit] How should UMBC be represented anyway?

Slevit1 writes: This is a page about the school, why not make it consistent with the school's wishes and how it would be seen advertised on any promotional literature?

This is a good question, and one which applies throughout Wikipedia. The basic answer is that X does not get the final word as to how X is represented in Wikipedia, whether X is UMBC, Microsoft, or George W. Bush.

UMBC's web site, press releases, style guide, etc. are useful, of course, but researchers should distinguish among

1. information that is acceptable at face value because it is trivially verifiable (who the president is, who won the basketball game last night)
2. information that is acceptable despite nontrivial verifiability, because there are standards for reporting it (tuition, enrollment, demographics, accreditation)
3. information that is official in nature and that therefore really is up to UMBC itself (slogan, logo, name, policies, department structure)
4. everything else: information which could be presented in more than one way, which UMBC would presumably present in a way favorable to UMBC (campus life, academics, athletics, ranking, reputation, student groups, technology, funding priorities), and which therefore bears further reporting

And let's add a category which is not available from UMBC sources:

5. information UMBC would oppose the publishing of (controversial decisions, location of steam tunnel entrances, how to sneak into the dorms, details of Hrabo's personal life)

If you buy into this breakdown, then information of types (1), (2), and (3) are all okay for inclusion in the article, though verifying through other sources is always good.

(4) should be written carefully, with Wikipedia guidelines on Verifiability and Neutral point of view in mind. Wikipedia is neither an advertisement nor a soapbox.

(5) is a special case. Controversial issues should not be shied away from; Wikipedia has Guidelines for controversial articles. It's a judgment call, and "UMBC thinks people shouldn't know this" is, in itself, neither an argument against nor an argument for covering a given topic.

So...

The Comma

Seems to fall under category 3... but UMBC doesn't seem to have a consistent preference. So, it's category 4, and we get to have debates about official sources, style guides, etc. Fine.

The location

Seems to fall under category 1 but is really category 4.

It's not category 1 because how regions relate to other regions is actually pretty complicated, and the USPS naming system is a special case of that [7]. Location is not the same as mailing address. And Baltimore and Catonsville work equally well to get mail delivered to UMBC.

It is category 4 because, given that there are multiple possible designations, the motivations of UMBC in using one over the other (and on this matter, they are consistent) must be examined:

Hypothesis 1: Baltimore is more spatially accurate.

• No. This point is not seriously arguable without first establishing that people refer to Baltimore County as "Baltimore".

Hypothesis 2: Catonsville is technically not a valid mailing location.

• Maybe this is true. But it works fine as a mailing location anyway, so it's pretty moot... and anyway it depends on the implicit premise that location is the same as mailing address.

Hypothesis 3: Baltimore sounds better.

• The most plausible. Catonsville is unknown to the wider world. Baltimore is more useful to most of the world as a description of approximate location, and also implies nightlife, major league sports, culture, and all that great stuff you get in cities.

This got pretty didactic and long, so I'll sum up:

1. UMBC is not the final arbiter of information about UMBC.
2. We should be thinking about bias, implications, and unspoken premises whenever we do any research and writing.

For the record, I have two degrees from UMBC, and am all in favor of their improving the image they project to the world, as long as it's all above board.

Matuszek 22:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Which two?  :) -James Howard (talk/web) 01:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Since I am thinking about it, I want to throw something at hypothesis 3 and see if it sticks: By analogy, both MIT and Harvard should list Boston, yes? Both list Cambridge as their location. Just a question. -James Howard (talk/web) 01:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

BS and MS in computer science. :)

This is a topic that I was going to get more into... UMBC is trying to improve its image because it has to. It is relatively young and unknown. MIT and Harvard don't have that problem; in fact, the prestige flows the other way (Cambridge is known because of them). Similarly with, say, the University of North Carolina: no point in claiming to be near Raleigh when the school itself has already made Chapel Hill famous.

So every company or institution has an interest in promoting a certain image of itself, but some are actively working on specific changes, while others are just tending the fire...

I checked out Harvard's talk page and they have some of the same arguments about boosters and badmouthers. Go figure. Matuszek 02:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe there's still debate about UMBC's location. As I said nearly a year ago: until UMBC got its own unique ZIP code, UMBC used the Catonsville ZIP code of 21228, and listed its location as Catonsville. (Old stationery and asset tags at UMBC say Catonsville.) UMBC probably decided to refer to itself as being in Baltimore for recognition. (Note that in both Catonsville and Arbutus -- ZIP codes 21228 and 21227 -- it is acceptable to write Baltimore as the city when addressing mail. Nonetheless, neither is within Baltimore City.) tooki 06:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. To say that UMBC is in Baltimore is a misrepresentation, even if it is an official one. Baltimore City limits are a good five minutes down Wilkens, at least three miles away, I would say. UMBC is in Catonsville by all geogrpahical definitions and should be represented as such. Additionally:

-"Baltimore is more useful to most of the world as a description of approximate location, and also implies nightlife, major league sports, culture, and all that great stuff you get in cities."

--well, that would just be a lie. Everyone knows there's no night life at UMBC. :) Fearwig 15:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] motto

What's up with "Fatti maschii, parole femine" as UMBC's motto? I understand it's the motto of the state. But I've never see it associated with UMBC. UMBC has been using the slogan or tag line "An honors university in Maryland" for over 10 years. It's more than an empty slogan -- it is part of a campaign to attract good students through special programs, scholarships and targeted recruiting. It's been suceessful when measured by any of several typical metrics, such as the average SAT scores of incoming freshman.

It's the motto of USM, and all USM institutions inherit it. As I said before, marketing gimmicks are not mottoes. -James Howard (talk/web) 03:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. Two questions come to mind. (1) what's your source on the motto of the UMS? I've not found anything on USMD.EDU. (2) What's your source on the idea that all USM institution inherit the motto of USM? Since the USM was created in 1988 and all of its member institutions predate it, I'd suspect that having the USM define or redifine mottos, official or unofficial, is unlikely.

Actually, I did some more research, and what I said before may not be entirely accurate. It gets a little complicated. However, the only reasonable arguments are either "Fatti maschii, parole femine" or none at all. I'll post more details tonight (EDT) or tomorrow. -James Howard (talk/web) 12:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the alleged motto, since the evidence that it is UMBC's motto is circumstantial. A much stronger case can be made, IMHO, for "An honors university in Maryland". Mottos don't have to be old. Mottos don’t have to be in Latin or some other language. Mottos are probably always chosen for marketing reasons. Mottos can be changed. The people entrusted with running the institution are usually the ones who choose the motto. Of course, an outpouring of sentiment by the community one way or the other makes a difference. The administration has been using "An honors university in Maryland” for the past ~10 years as the official tagline for UMBC. I don’t recall any other slogan or tag line being used before that, though my knowledge only goes back to 1991. A good person to ask about this would be Professor Ed Orser of the American Studies department. He was one of the organizers of the UMBC oral history project some years ago. Tim 00:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I did something smart. I emailed the University archivist this morning. We'll see what he/she comes back with. -69.243.87.240 00:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Archivist contacted me and, as dumb as it is, "An honors university in Maryland" is it. -69.243.87.240 22:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you also ask the Archivist about where UMBC is located and whether or not the comma should be in our name? Tim 16:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] School Clubs

Can school clubs be moved to a different linked entry? They're transient and insignificant enough that they should not be in the main entry, and so verbose that they take up at least half of its text. --Vees 17:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)