Talk:Universe

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
 Universe is a former good article candidate. There are suggestions below for which areas need improvement to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, the article can be renominated as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review.

Date of review: 3 December 2006
This article has been identified by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team as a Core Topic, one of the 150 most important articles for any encyclopedia to have. Please help improve this article as we push to 1.0. If you'd like help with this article, you may nominate it for the core topics collaboration.
B Universe has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
WikiProject Physics This article is within the scope of WikiProject Physics, which collaborates on articles related to physics.
Portal:Physics
 Physics Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
Top This article is on a subject of Top importance within physics.

This article has been rated but has no comments. If appropriate, please review the article and leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.
Wikipedia CD Selection Universe is either included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards, and if possible stick to GFDL and GFDL-compatible images.
This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and the next release version of Wikipedia. This Natsci article has been rated B-Class on the assessment scale.


Contents

[edit] False Analogy

The analogy used to show that the universe may have no boundary but be finite is false-- spheres may not have an edge, but they are bounded. The universe is supposed to be unbounded, so we're looking for something to show that an unbounded space may be finite. The analogy given does not do this; it is false. I won't remove it because someone smarter would put it back up. Please consider this and remove it.

[edit] Our Universe name

Why there is no name for our universe? And is the universe=everything? If universe =everything then what we call this (the 1.9 × 1033 cubic light years)

Is there is a good name for “everything”?

Now if we ever found that the space is a lot bigger then what we thank, and patterns of our universe exist in millions, shouldn’t we name our universe?!

Uh, I think it's just "The Universe." Other universes would just be "Other Universes." It's not like we really need a name for our universe, as we aren't really going to be travelling to other ones. Sorry. Citizen Premier 02:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The good name for "everything" is "universe" :) Chris M. 00:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

I removed the paragraph

But some of the objects outside of the observable universe can, in principle, be observed indirectly. For example, it is theoretically possible to meet an observer located near the end of our observable universe, who in his past has observed some galaxies that left our observable universe because of expansion.

I'm a mathematician not a physicist but this seems to contradict the paragraph above about Causality.

It's a poorly phrased version of the statement that things that were once in the observable universe can leave it. This hasn't actually happened in our universe, because between cosmic inflation and dark energy domination, it wasn't expanding fast enough, and we were able to observe more and more things. However, in the future, things will pass outside the event horizon, and be irretrievably lost to us. – Joke137 23:58, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Universe

The Universe is the whole spacetime continuum in which we find ourselves, together with all the matter and energy within it.

Different words have been used throughout history to denote "all of space", including the equivalents in various languages of "heavens", "cosmos" and "world".

For a large fraction of the twentieth century, the word Universe, with an upper case "U", was used to mean the whole spacetime continuum in which we find ourselves, together with all the matter and energy within it.

However, since the standard Big bang model has become well established observationally during the last few decades of the twentieth century, theoretical cosmologists have come up with new ideas of "the whole spacetime continuum" which are much, much larger than the "Universe" corresponding to the Big bang model. For this reason, the word universe can now be used in the plural and with a lower case "u" when discussing theories about all of space-time. There is no clear consensus on what new word to use for the whole spacetime continuum (though some like the term multiverse), and as long as there is no conceivable method of measuring anything beyond the observable horizon (formally speaking, the particle horizon), this is a seen as a moot point (irrelevant) for empirical scientists, and is of interest only to philosophy.

[edit] infinite universe?

It is not known whether the Universe is finite or infinite in spatial extent and volume, although current theories favor an infinite Universe.

although the majority of theorists presently favor an infinite Universe.


Rubbish. The majority of theorists currently favour an infinite Universe, but this is a matter of personal taste and sociology and historical fashion and nothing to do with physics.
I certainly also sense theorists favoring an infinite Universe. I disagree that it is a matter of taste.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000 "Parallel Universes" Not just a staple of science fiction, other universes are a direct implication of cosmological observations. By Max Tegmark.
NealMcB 17:46, 2004 May 4 (UTC)
That's why it's stated as "the majority" Chris M. 00:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] size of universe

48 billion (48 ? 109) light years.

50x10^9 light-yr = 5x 10^10 *0.3 pc = 1.7x 10^10 pc = 17 Gpc = 12 /h Gpc (where h=0.7 is the Hubble constant) OK :), this is approximately correct for Omega_m=0.3, Omega_Lambda =0.7, though 10/h Gpc is closer. In any case, i'll round to 50 since it's no more than 10% precise.

I'm glad the way this is improving - and i love the desire to avoid ambiguity. Wikipedia is definitely a good tool for spreading relatively wellunderstood information to outsiders without expecting them to waste hours and hours to sort through ambiguous jargon.

--boud

I see various estimates of the number of particles in the observable universe, e.g. the claim in Wikipedia talk:Size comparisons that It is accepted by astrophysicists that the number of particles in the observable universe? is currently in the 1085 range. This seems like the place to document that. Does anyone have some good references? NealMcB 18:27, 2004 May 4 (UTC)


"...it is estimated to be about 78 billion light years (7.4 × 1023 km)."

Interesting....just based on what did this 'estimated value' came from? At least a note should be provided for this kind of 'data'. LegolasGreenleaf 11:26, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

"...billion ..."

What kind of billion?, I meen, 10^9 or 10^12? I know that wikipedia uses 10^9 "if don't state otherwise" but I think that talking about science and to avoid ambiguity, is better 10^9 or the prefixes "giga" or "tera" see wikipedia, long scale alternative approaches

I agree. Jimp 09:21, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it not possible that we are concentrating on the universe as a ball instead of a balloon. Could we not be an outer layer petering out and as for the big bang it is very much like the opposite of the current theory involving black holes, so theoretically could not ours have started from a black hole reaching a set limit then exploding outwards. Baloons inside balloons. So size isn't what is worrying, it's rate of decreasing depth? Based on Sighn's work (hope spelled this right, his signiture is awful!)

This section really needs to be synched to the main article (Observable universe). --Pascal666 02:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seeing around the universe

For the time being, I am removing the following statement from the article, because I don't see how it can be true:

"Therefore, strictly speaking, we should call the stars and galaxies "images" of stars and galaxies, since it is possible that the Universe is finite and so small that we can see once or several times around it, and the real number of physically distinct stars and galaxies could be a little smaller. There are observations underway to determine whether this is true."

If the universe were so small that one could see even once around it, wouldn't the night (and day) sky be completely bright? If the universe were unbounded yet sufficiently finite, wouldn't the "image" of the sun exist in every direction that one looked?Johnstone 13:31, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

I'd put it back in. You bring up Olbers'_paradox. See that article for reasons why the sky isn't all bright. But that doesn't depend on whether the universe is bent or flat. It's more about whether you can see an infinite distance. NealMcB 16:16, 2004 May 8 (UTC)
I was aware of that paradox, though I didn't know it had a name. It was in the back of my mind when I decided to question the material I removed. As you say, that paradox is not about the idea of seeing "around" the universe, so it does not necessarily relate to my question. However, I was thinking of the universe as a "spherical space"; I have re-read the sentences in question, and now I realize that my objections do not apply for most non-spherical geometries. I've tweaked a few words to (hopefully) clarify their meaning. Johnstone 22:51, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
What I recall reading is that it would take all time (from Big Bang to Big Crunch) for a photon to traverse a whole universe and return to its original position. Jimp 09:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] universe (fiction)

It might be nice to have an article on "Universe (fiction)" or something -- the sense of the word where somebody says "Many of the Marvel Comics series take place in the same universe" or "The SERRAted Edge novels are set in the same universe as the Bedlam Bards novels". Cwitty

http://www.cs.appstate.edu/~sjg/class/1010/wc/geom/finitespace.html "Is Space Finite?" by Jean-Pierre Luminet, Glenn D. Starkman and Jeffrey R. Weeks

[edit] Shape of the Universe

Hi, I'd like to question the analogue of the shape of the Universe and the shape of the Earth. There are no current experimental hints, that the Universe is not flat. This is stark contrast to our experience on Earth, where it is rather easy to find that it is not flat (ships under horizon etc.) We should change/improve that sentence. Awolf002 23:17, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Uh, what exactly do you mean? How could the universe be flat? Assuming you're sitting in a three-dimensional chair typing on a three-dimensional computer with three-dimensional fingers, you must not mean completely flat... do you mean very wide and not very tall? And if so, why? A spherical universe seems most logical, if based on nothing but the fact that you can stand anywhere on earth, look up and see celestial bodies in all directions. Another shape would have to be based on contradictory evidence, but that applies to anything, so why specifically flat? I don't see the basis of flatness being any kind of default assumption.

[edit] At least 156 billion light-years?

According to http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040524.html , the universe is at least 156 billion light-years across.

I changed the article accordingly. If someone thinks it was too early and we should wait until the new estimate becomes widely accepted, change it back.Paranoid 12:50, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
while changing from 50 to 78 Bly in radius, it looks like you left unchanged the language The observable universe contains about 7 × 1022 stars, organized in about 1010 galaxies,. Anyone know where that estimate came from? Based on applying the local density to the total volume? Based on observations of deep fields? Something else? If based on density, these numbers would also need to be adjusted based on the new volume. And this all relates to my question above about the number of particles in the universe. --NealMcB 00:04, 2004 May 29 (UTC)

[edit] Age - forever uncertain

According to http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040522/fob1ref.asp , physicists from National Laboratories of Gran Sasso found the age to be 14.7, not 13.7.

Well, kind of... You need to understand, that the age of the Universe can (and should) be obtained by many independent methods. Each of these methods has its own assumptions and systematic errors. So it is very unlikely you get the exact same numbers from all of these measurements. If the theory about the Universe (on which these numbers are based on) is correct, then these numbers should agree within their uncertainties!
The article seems inconsistent. We have one paragraph stating the age is 13.7 (or 14.7) +-.2, and another saying it is 15.556 +- 0.024 billon years. These numbers aren't agreeing within their uncertainties. We need to square this somehow, at least we should point out the inconsistency. Zeimusu 16:17, 2004 Jun 15 (UTC)
I suspect the 15.556 one is less reliable. If we knew the age with such precision, nobody would be discussing it, doing research and publishing paper about it.Paranoid 18:00, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone know who wrote that stuff about "the age is the inverse square of the temperature"? I know quite a bit about cosmology, and never heard of such a formula - and actually I think that this claim makes no sense.

In another article on the age of the universe it says that "the age is the inverse square of the temperature" when measuring the universe's age in planck(not sure of spelling) units. From the description in that article these units are based on the temperature of the universe after the big bang.

WRT the 14.7 billion years, I think that was misreported in the popular science media. What the people actually showed that the age of stars and globular clusters is 1 billion years more than previously thought - but adding that 1 billion years simply to the WMAP result makes no sense, since the WMAP result does not depend in any way on the age of the stars. There could possibly be problems now that the age of some stars seems to be older than the age of the universe, but AFAIK, this is not the case, despite this age correction for the stars.

Accordingly, I have deleted this paragraph. If anyone feels it must be reinstated, lets discuss it here first. Zeimusu 12:27, 2004 Jul 23 (UTC)

well, I can claim that the universe is 20 billion years old and you CANNOT prove me wrong...=) while we may have a vague figure of the visible universe, what is beyond what our vision could reach is anyone's guess...who's to say that the next second the Hubble telescope will not see a 'boundary' somewhere beyond the deep field... I think i'm a lil bit drunk... but this stuff is fun to think about — LegolasGreenleaf 11:34, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Age of Universe - Observation and Theory

The often quoted age of 13.7+/-0.2 Gyr for the age of the universe comes from the first year WMAP results: This measurement is made by using the location of the first acoustic peak in the microwave background power spectrum to determine the size of the decoupling surface (size of universe at the time of recombination). The light travel time to this surface (depending on the geometry used) yields a pretty good age for the universe. Assuming all the various models used are valid in getting to this number, the accuracy of actual data allows a margin of error around 1%.

However, this age is only accurate if the assumptions built into the various models being used are also accurate. This is referred to as “strong priors” and essentially involves stripping the potential errors in other parts of the model to render the accuracy of actual observational data directly into the concluded result. Although this is not a totally invalid procedure in certain contexts, it should be noted that the caveat, “based on the fact we have assumed the underlying model we used is correct”, then the age given is thus accurate to the specified error (since this error represents the error in the instrument used to gather the raw data input into the model).

The age of the universe based on the “best fit” to WMAP data “only” is 13.4+/-0.3 Gyr (the slightly higher number of 13.7 includes some other data mixed in). This number represents the first accurate “direct” measurement of the age of the universe (other methods typically involve Hubble law and maximum age of stars, etc). There is a sense of triumphantism in the scientific community surrounding results like this, and therefore a more careful analysis of the methods and assumptions used, tend to be overlooked.

This, of course, is a classic example of how different methods for determining the same parameter (in this case – the age of the universe) can give different answers with no overlap in the “errors”. It is quite common to see two sets of uncertainties, one related to the measurement and other the related to the systematic errors of the model. In some cases, this can not be done (in theoretical a prediction), but it is not evident why WMAP were not able to do this?

Worth checking out is Science 299 (2003) 1532-1533, available here http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0303180

There is a purely theoretical approach to calculating the age of the universe which I can outline in more detail here. This comes from a very recent development and hasn't been published yet. Even after publication, it can take some years before a new result like this makes its way into the mainstream (so don't be surprised if you have not heard about this yet.) It is probably best to leave this development out of the main page until such time as it gains greater acceptance. For now this discussion forum should suffice for a preview however:

The redshift of an object in a dynamic universe is related to a scale factor of that universe by the relation R=Ro/(1+z). Where R represents the “scale” of the universe as seen at the redshift z, where the current scale is Ro. The “scale” is just a device to measure the size of the universe, it can be thought of as the radius, but most people use the “scale factor” a=R/Ro, which would be dimensionless regardless of how you represented R.

The temperature of the universe is inversely proportional to its scale; somewhat analogous to a gas that would cool down if expanded, or heat up if compressed, the temperature of the universe is thus related to redshift as T=To(1+z). We can do a quick test by using the current temperature of 2.7K and the redshift of CMB as 1089 to calculate the temperature of the decoupling surface T= 2.7*1090 = 2943K (this is the temperature of the universe when the CMB was emitted - around the dull red glow of a hot poker.)

One of the most important cosmological models, is based on the Friedmann equations. This allows you to describe how the universe has evolved over time using an equation like this: t=to(1+z)^-3(1+w)/2. As you can see, things are starting to get a bit more tricky, but this equation simply relates the age of the universe to the redshift. This particular example has an additional term w, which comes from something called the equation of state, relating the pressure and density of the universe (p=wdc^2, where p is pressure, d is density and c^2 is the speed of light squared).

In a universe like our own, most of the contents is in the form of stuff that does not exert much pressure on its surroundings (clouds of hydrogen gas, stars etc). In this model, w=0 and is known as a pressureless, or “dust” model. Here t=to(1+z)^-(3/2), and throwing in our redshift of 1089 and a current age of the universe to=13.7 Gyr gives us around 380,000 years for the age of the universe when the CMB was emitted. This may not seem so tricky after all, but unfortunately, it is not quite that simple.

Embedded in these models is an assumption about time and an interpretation of metric distance which is not entirely correct. That is not to say that they are entirely wrong either: The metric distance defined between two points in an expanding universe increases over time. However, the General Theory of Relativity does not explicitly state how that change in distance should be interpreted. It is entirely valid to consider this change as a fundamental change in the underlying “concept” of distance (and the same situation would also apply to the concept of time).

This type of model immediately solves an important problem relating to our CMB calculation above. If the photons in the CMB went from being hot enough to fry a burger, how come those same photons can't even defrost one today? Where did all that energy go? Of course, this comes back to our idea of the change in the distance scale: These universe expands by a change in the unit system, so the temperature likewise changes with the unit system. In this context, the temperature/scale of the universe can be thought of as being constant over the history of the universe, with no loss of energy in the CMB.

Things do start to get technical here, but there is a nice confirmation of this model which actually validates it against recent observations. Coming back to the math, the change in the distance is related to time with the redshift relation t=to(1+z)^-2. However, there is an additional change in time related to redshift as t=to(1+z)^-(1/2), which (the product of both) brings us back to the original form for our “dust” w=0 universe. The idea of time-variable time probably sounds bizarre, but this is expected since there is no “absolute” concept of time in General Relativity (even though it seems people try and introduce this idea in most models.)

So this was a very round about way of saying that we can relate the temperature of the universe to the age of the universe. Since we can measure the current temperature and have a model to extrapolate back, all we need to know now is the origin of the graph and read off the age. The earliest valid point in the evolution of the universe if the Planck time. At this time, the universe had the Planck temperature at a state of essentially zero entropy. The Planck temperate is the maximum attainable temperate in the universe and can be thought of as the Hawking temperature of black hole with a radius of the Planck length.

The Planck temperature Tp comes out to around 4.5x10^30K, and we can state Tp=To(1+zmax), where To=2.725K and zmax=1.65x10^30 is the maximum redshift at the Planck time tp. We know that tp=to(1+zmax)^-2, so putting in the Planck time gives us a n age of the universe of 11.667 Gyr. This is not the end of the story however: If time was absolute and never changed, then this would be the correct value, but we need to take into consideration of the change in time over the age of the universe. This is a fairly simple integration and results in a age one third as much at 15.556 Gyr. The CMB temperature is known to a 2mK accuracy, and with some error in things like the Planck units (mainly from G), the accuracy of this age determination is around 24 Myr.

There is a simplification where if expressed in Planck units, the temperature is equal to the inverse square. Dividing To/Tp gives the current temperature expressed in the amount of the Planck temperature 6x10^-31. Taking the inverse square gives 2.72x10^60 which is the age in Planck units. Multiplying by the Planck time gives the 11.667 Gyr again. There is mainly other simple relations like this, including the critical density as the Planck temperature raised to the forth power. In Planck units, the density is 1.3x10^-121, which multiplied by the Planck density is 3.3x10^-30 g/cm^3.

This was a very stripped down and somewhat mangled explanation, but hopefully it has shed some light on the “age of the universe” question.

I notice that you not only snipped my questions and chose to ignore them; you also left our discussion in sci.astro. I count that as a defeat. You call our discussion "fruitless" - you are right there, but you might consider *who* was the one who kept ignoring questions and arguments, and thereby made the discussion fruitless...Bjoern 14:52, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Not so much a defeat, as a waste of time; your questions and arguments didn't warrant the time required to address them. However, if you are still interested, I will be presenting this work at the annual meeting[1] of the American Association for the Advancement of Science on February 20th 2005 (so I need to focus my attention on that presentation for the time being).
Wow, more discussion than I was expecting! I wonder if that can be incorporated into this page or another, it was worth reading. The universe page should have 13.7 billion years as its value for the age of the universe, but I'm going to copy some of your caveats to the main page. Zeimusu 14:41, 2004 Jul 27 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalizaton

I asked this question on Talk:Kardashev scale but I'm still not confident. this article mizes and matches the use of Universe and universe. Is there a distinction between the two forms or is this a formatting error? Many articles have the word Universe capitalized but this article starts out by uncapitalizing it and then shifts to upper case. The title:

Size of Universe and observable universe

seems to be using both versions in one line. If it isn't an error there should be a note about it somewhere. Comments? [[User:BrokenSegue|BrokenSegue]] 03:27, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Could it be that the Big Bang is what happens on the 'otherside/inside' of a Black Hole? (Hawking temp) That would provide a starting event for the expansion of this know universe and contribute to the theory of Infinity; an 'infinity of universes'; the only constant being Change/Flux.

[edit] I don't like...

Much of this article depends on the reader subscribing to the Big Bang theory for it to be anything other than nonsensical...other equally (or more) plausible theories concerning the genesis of everything exist, so should they not also be given the spotlight by this article? Redxela Sinnak 16:45, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Fringe views belong in their own articles. Until the article on time discusses Gene Ray's Time Cube hypothesis, or Earth discusses modern geocentrism or modern Flat Earth views, this article shouldn't discuss fringe views. --brian0918™ 16:55, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I was in no way referring to "fringe theories". Please read comments more clearly in future. Anyone else? Redxela Sinnak 11:45, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

What are the other "equally (or more) plausible" theories? I don't think any of the other scientific theories have been tested with nearly the precision of the big bang. –Joke137 13:38, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Redxela I agree. It seems to me that the current focus on BB and the continual reference to anything other than BB as being 'fringe' stems from the simple fact that most astrophysicists, physicists, and astronomers are simply not educated in the history and dynamics of the scientific method in general. No doubt most are unsure of what the word 'paradigm' even means, completely blind to the fact that the majority of their world-view is restricted to one. (this is now a fragment.. continue with 'BB is viewed..')
Surely, you must be joking!! Are you saying, the people who work on creating a scientific theory day by day are "not educated" to address all these issues? Do you really believe, most scientists would not follow a potentially Nobel Prize winning new explanation for the genesis of the Universe? All this makes me think, that you are talking about non-scientific theories. Please, prove me wrong and give us an example. Awolf002 17:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
It is a rare physicist that is educated in the history of the circumstances of his science. How often where you taught in your training to go back to the fundamentals and research the original history and cultural circumstances? Here in the US most physics curriculums simply train in the presently known science with no attempt to portray the cultural and historical background of the science. Im not sure where you got the idea that I think scientists dont follow potentially nobel prize winning theories, because it seems thats all they do, regardless of their foundations and factuality! --Ionized 20:40, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
BB is viewed as correct through biased perception that simply will not be able to see it as anything other than correct. Nearly all 'tests' which verify the BB are constructed from within the BB paradigm itself. The study of the history of the field is of utmost importance, researching original papers from the pioneers themselves such as Hubble can greatly clarify which events lead to the popular acceptance of any one theory over another. Unfortuneatly, most main-stream researchers don't even question the foundations hence would never bother to take the time to research them, and indeed simply discount anyone who has done the research and knows more about it. The history behind Hubble is one of the greatest examples, for he didn't come up with Hubbles law entirely by himself, he was lead into it by colleagues. He observed a relation between luminosity and redshift, it was only latter interpretted by others as 'velocity and distance', and indeed before his death Hubble fought hard to bring this information back into the community. He didn't believe it was recessional velocity at all, there where historical circumstances which forced that interpretation upon it. Anyhow, its a shame that BB is the current focus of the major funding in the field, if all of the funding was taken away and redirected, no doubt the popular conception would start noticing the already existing evidence against the standard paradigm. --Ionized
Good to hear an echoing of my thoughts, fellow music lover ;) Quite shamefully, I cant back up my thoughts as I lost the original source of "genesis dispute". I can assure anyone reading this that it that the points raised in that article were valid. Not to put too fine a point on it, but someone better educated than me must follow up this lead. --Redxela Sinnak 11:04, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] please make this page less technical

Can someone please make space (of the universe) seem less technical? It is very confusing for the average person to understand, and it seems like the knowledge of physics is mandatory to understand any of it. Please change this.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Space"


SEASONS GREETINGS 2005/2006 <spam removed-- JeremyA 01:46, 25 December 2005 (UTC)>. Thanks.

[edit] Sum of matter and energy

This is a confusing statement that is not necessarily true (especially in regards to the disambig at top referring to the observable universe). Do not continuing inserting this statement. Thanks,--ScienceApologist 16:38, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The universe consists of energy in various forms , one of them matter ... The sum of energy in the universe is constant. Why do you disagree with that ?

The sum of the energy in the universe need not be constant -- especially if this is about the observable universe (which is continually expanding). --ScienceApologist 03:48, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

According to science the sum of energy (including matter) in the universe is constant.Energy can not be created from nothing.Energy can not be destroyed into nothing.

I know many religious people do not like the results from science - are you making religious censorship ????

I think maybe we are having a problem with English not being your first language. In any case, the article already makes the expression needed. --ScienceApologist 19:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I am taking the liberty to copy the two sentences in contention:

1 - The definition of the Universe is everything that exists. Nothing exists beyond the universe.
2 - The Universe consists of energy and matter, the sum of energy and matter is always constant.

I find it rather difficult to find consensus about them with just the above arguments. Awolf002 20:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization revisited

Why is universe capitalized in much of this article? Do sources outside Wikipedia capitalize it? My dictionary doesn't. Neither do any of the external web sites the article links to, at least as far as a cursory inspection reveals. — Knowledge Seeker দ 04:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree that universe would be better lower case for an encyclopedia type article on 'universe'. Could be UK tendency to capitalize many nouns but I think we usually try to keep the style already on existing pages. Possibly, considering the type of vandalizing the page suffers, there appear agendas involving the promotion of The Universe here and related articles. --Eddie | Talk 09:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I've put it in lowercase. The use of uppercase, especially in phrases such as "known universe," is non-standard and the explanation given for the use of lowercase for "parallel universes" alone is original research, to put it charitably. (And no, this is not a UK tendency.) ProhibitOnions 14:05, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Update Tag

I was somewhat reluctant to tag it this way at first, but I feel that as the current community of physicists and other scientific disciplines dealing with cosmological principles have well advanced the theories of Albert Einstein (no offense intended there, sorry if it comes off like that) that some more modern sources are required (maybe some more current than 1952). In fact, because this Einstein source is the sole work in the bibliograpical section, I imagine that all of the subjects within the greater subject of the concept of a universe were not in Einstein's original paper. I don't have access to it at this moment but I will dig for it and retract this tag and comment if there is any discrepancy from what I feel is true.

JuniorMuruin 01:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] where is our universe?

on what plane of existence does our universe live on? is there someother plane bigger than universe that hold all other universes as well? if so, they where is that plane? at what point does the universe stop expanding, and what happens when that occurs?

I think you're asking about branes and the Big Bang. --ScienceApologist

When the universe stops expanding depends on the shape of the universe. If the universe is open, it will continue to expand until the Big Rip(Actually, even after the Big Rip, it will continue to expand). This can also lead to the Heat death of the universe. If the universe is a sphere, it may retract until it beomes a singularity. There are many more factors that will affect the universe's fate. If you are interested, see the Ultimate fate of the universe. Funnybunny (talk/Counter Vandalism Unit) 02:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expanding universe...

If the Universe is expanding, then what is it expanding into? Alexrushfear 17:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incomplete beginning of the article

The article should start with a paragraph treating "Does the universe exist?". Its perceived existence should not be taken at face value. it could be a mere reflection or an insignificant detail of something bigger that actually exists. Refer to the ending scene of Man in Black for a much dramatized illustration.

[edit] Grammar errors

The sentence "There is controversy over which came first in the universe: matter or energy." Just doesn't seem to fit in. I know it's not the biggest mistake in the world but could someone fix that sentence to be correct?

Uh, could you? You did add the sentence in. Splintercellguy 20:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Universe and Mind Embodiment"?

This section was added by 24.90.214.20. I'm not sure that the Wikipedia "Universe" article is the place for touchy-feely new-age hippy speculation such as this. It throws around a lot of big words but ultimately says very little. It is not scientific or supported by any other articles. I feel that this section should be removed. Any objections? I've read that fringe theories belong in their own articles, so perhaps the person who wrote this would like to create a new article or stub in the future. Bvanderveen 22:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. `'mikka (t) 23:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifying the universe

This should add to better understanding of many aspects of the univese.


Two wrong and harmful assumptions

There are two basic reasons for the mysteries in the standard model of the universe – and they are due to two wrong assumptions that should be corrected in order to really understand our universe.

The first wrong fundamental assumption about our universe is that Newton’s laws and gravitational constant (only derived from observations in our solar system) are also valid at galactic distances outside our solar system.

The second wrong fundamental assumption is that the observed red shifts of stars show that the stars are receding and that the universe is expanding.

It is important that the scientific community take careful consideration of these two basic assumptions in order that many capable scientists do not waste any more of their precious years of research following ideas and trails that will be discarded by future generations.

The consequences of these assumptions (for over seven decades) are that they directed many excellent physicists into beliefs about the universe that are strange, wrong, and not really productive. There now are serious errors in the commonly accepted model of the universe.

GRAVITY AND DARK MATTER

The first wrong assumption is the implicit belief that Newton’s law of gravity is also valid at cosmic distances. There are no observational proofs for this assumption. In fact when used together with early observations of the motion of groups of galaxies (reported by F. Zwicki), and the motion of stars in spiral galaxies (by V. Rubin), these observations according to Newton’s laws need massive amounts of missing matter, now called Dark Matter, to explain the many observations.

The equations describing the rotation of the stars in spiral galaxies, balancing the gravitational and centrifugal force, result in M*G = r*v*v where M is the central force and G is Newton’s gravitational constant.

In regions where the rotation velocity curves are flat (constant) this requires that either M increases linearly with distance r, or that G increases linearly with distance in the region of constant rotation velocity. The usual assumption is that a linear invisible mass is the explanation for the unusual observations thus leading to a need for massive amounts of dark matter.

Actually my simple extension of the gravitational constant G consisting of an additional term linear in distance, A*r, can explain the observations without needing to search for dark matter. (This is different from the interesting MOND theory of M. Milgrom that involves acceleration.) Note that with this extension of the gravitational constant with large distances, Newton’s laws and Einstein’s General Relativity are still valid in our solar system at the smaller distances. The observed gravitational lenses are also explained without needing dark matter.

MEANING OF THE RED SHIFT

The second, and more critical, wrong assumption is that the observed red shifts are only due to the Doppler effect and presumably show that the stars with red shifts are receding.

This wrong assumption concerning the causes and meaning of the red shift has resulted in a number of even more serious errors, including the apparent expansion of the universe, the supposed initial inflation, the apparent acceleration of the expansion, and the need for Dark Energy, the wrong age of the universe based upon the Hubble constant, the big bang, Inflation, and the explanation for the Cosmic Microwave Background and its low temperature. A number of Nobel prizes were awarded based upon excellent works that unfortunately were based upon these wrong assumptions.

The red shift initially termed by Hubble as an “… apparent Doppler effect …” is supposed to measure the apparent receding velocity of remote stars, leading to the conclusion that the universe is expanding. This apparent expansion encouraged Einstein to remove his cosmological constant, which he previously had inserted into his equations to support his belief (wish) for a static universe.

Actually, there are three additional contributions to the red shift and they are only due to gravity. The first is for photons leaving large masses. The results are that massive quasars can appear to have large energy output, and transverse (angular, “proper”) velocities greater than the velocity of light. This is because the apparently large distances determined from the red shift make the quasars appear to be further away. This also explains why galaxies that appear to be connected by streams of stars (H. Arp) also show different red shifts indicating large differences in distance (a massive black hole in the further galaxy adding to the red shift).

The second contribution to the red shift is for photons traveling large interstellar distances and is due to gravitational drag by interstellar dust and gas (without collisions or absorption and reemission that would blur images). This is similar to the gravitational drag by our moon on Earth tides causing the moon to lose energy, without needing blurring effects on the photons.

The third contribution is due to the long-range drag by the extended gravitational constant (related to the apparent dark matter), and adds a new logarithmic term, ln(r) as a contribution to the red shift. The logarithmic term arises from the integration of the force with the inverse r term in the extended gravitational constant with respect to distance to determine the loss of photon energy.

The apparent accelerating expansion of the universe is due to the observations that very remote stars are dimmer (and further away) than predicted from their observed red shifts based upon the Hubble linear relation ship between red shift and distance (S. Perlmutter). The result is the apparent need for Dark Energy to power the acceleration.

For very remote stars, determination of distance from red shift and the Hubble constant is no longer linear and should be corrected by the ln(r) contribution for the extreme distances. This error makes the distance for very remote stars based upon intensity much larger than expected from the assumed linear red shift. The wrong interpretation of distance based upon observed red shifts and distances of very remote stars resulted in the wrong concepts of accelerating expansion, and dark energy to provide the reason for the differences between red shift distance and the light intensity determination.

The cosmic microwave background is caused by the effect of gravity on photons traveling long distances to reduce the photon energy to the microwave range. Gravitational interactions will equilibrate the microwave photon energy to thermal equilibrium with the very low (2.7 K) temperature of interstellar gas and dust.

The loss of photon energy traveling from very remote stars will shift the wavelength out of the visible range – and this explains Olbers paradox (why the sky is black in spite of the vast number of stars).

SUMMARY

A careful, open minded review of the points raised here could be beneficial to the future progress of the scientific community although the results could be upsetting to many intelligent and productive experts working in this field.

If you feel that these explanations have merit, please feel free to send a copy of this document (unchanged) to your friends and colleagues.


Sol Aisenberg, Ph.D. 36 Bradford Road Natick, MA 01760 U.S.A.

508/651-0140 itgplus@earthlink.net To be updated: http://inventing-solutions.com/simplified-universe.htm

[edit] Link leads to disambiguity

Where is Null under See Also fit in? I'd fix it but i can't figure it out.

[edit] When was the density equal to water?

How long after the big-bang did it take for matter in the universe to reach a density equal to that of water? Also, how long until a density equal to that of air at sea-level was achieved? Thanks

[edit] Problem in para - anyone know what this is supposed to mean??

I edited out this rather confused segment, be grateful if someone can (a) explain what it's all about and (b) make some sense of it in the right page context:

"== Hisgalaxy formation theory predict more nearby small galaxies than observed.

passes through the intervening gas clouds. The ionization of these gas clouds is determined by the number of nearby bright galaxies, and if such galaxies are spread around, the ionization level should be constant. It turns out that in galaxies from the period after cosmic reionization there are large fluctuations in this ionization level. The evidence seems to confirm the pre-ionization galaxies were less common and that the post-ionization galaxies have 100 times the mass of the dwarf galaxies. [citation needed] tory of the universe ==" MarkThomas 19:54, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This whole theory is illogical

Question #1: If there is a Big Bang, where did everything come from before that? And the answer that it all shrunk down to some superball only leads to "where did that come from?"

In fact, the entire theory makes absolutely no sense, except to say that we do not understand the core nature of both mathematics and of physics.

Far too much money is wasted on this meaningless research, really, while the pseudo-intellectuals debate the trivialities of Big Bang and other theories, what's really needed on this planet are solutions on this planet, and not idylls of the rich wasted money on what is nothing more than a trick to avoid the needed responsibilities. Not unlike kings and emperors playing darts while large portions of their populations go starving, or worse, are used for another game, genocidal chess.

The reality is that we do not know what the word "infinite" means because we do not know the mathematics and the physics to properly describe the "infinite."

We know this one thing, that the only infinities we accept are those bounded by the circle and the sphere. A repetitive way of measuring something we do not fully understand. If we consider that the universe expands forever, or even to some limit, and then collapses back on itself, then we have admitted that there is something out there bigger than the universe. And in so doing, we have undefined our own universe because the real universe, complete with all matter parts and all void parts, is bigger than our biggest bang universe.

We fumble with Newton's Second Law in propulsion systems and never achieve anything near required speeds approaching the Speed of Light. In fact, by Newton's Second Law and by propulsion we can never exceed one-half the Speed of Light. In short, our approach, propulsion, is entirely unsuited to traveling astronomical distances within meaningful periods of time.

There is, however, a means of travel that does not rely on the simple rocket type of thrust engine. It is, in fact, the same force that the universe and all of its elements themselves use to travel. The alteration of nearby gravitation which is a form of impulsion. Everything in the known universe travels in a curved trajectory. This implies that all motion is curvelinear and that there exists no straight line, particularly in motion, throughout the entire universe. Which again implies and is used by physicists to say that if you travel far enough you will wind up back where you started. The basis of Einstein's famous poem, and in full agreement with all that we observe and all that we are unable to observe.

And there are only two things left to contend with: Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravitation.

Which further demands that the Unified Field Equation must reduce to these two and to these two only.

And how can that be?

For the learned physicist and the learned mathematician alike, they will deny the very evidence presented to them: light and gravitation are merely an interrelated phenomenon. That phenomenon is a simple proportion between the two. First, the Speed of Light is not constant, not throughout our known universe, and most likely zero outside of our known universe. This fits well with the universe being either a disk or a sphere, ellipse, or any form of Klein Bottle or other alleged infinite shape.

And what can be at the base of this proportion? Motion as the first dimension.

If it does not move in the universe, it does not exist within the universe. One cannot find an absolutely stable object within the universe. There are no objects that do not move in the universe. If it does not move, it does not exist within the universe.

That implies, of course, that there is something outside of our known universe and only this concept fits with all of the other known physical observations of the universe, as well as all of the known mathematical models and phenomemna.

What does not exist within our universe exists outside of our universe.

This paradox is the root and edge of our known quantities, including light and gravitation. If the proportion is ever anything other than unitary, then the laws of physics and relativity are exceeded and they no longer apply to anything exhibiting qualities outside of the known constraints of the finite definition.

At the root of all of this is the simple fact of spin; the one completely overlooked by first Newton and later by Einstein, and others.

In fact, everything is spinning. This is the only common denominator of all observations in the known universe. That would make this spin type of motion the primary motion of all things in the universe. And this spin must be a first order proportional equation between electronmagnetic radiation [energy, force, what have you] and gravitation. That is, it must be of the form:

nu=CG

where nu is the proportion, in numbers, C is the Speed of Light constant, and G is the Gravitational constant of the universe. This must therefore define the first dimension of motion, and it must define it for all space, which is curvelinaer.

Thus, the Unified Field Equation is nothing more than a simple proportion of order 1, that is, one with no exponential values with respect to its two constant components, the Speed of Light Constant and the Gravitational Constant.

Therefore, if it spins it is in motion and it exists; otherwise, it does not exist in our universe. And all of this conforms to all known observations.

So, what exactly happens when the spin exceeds the force of gravitation?

The proportion exceeds its bounds and the object literally jumps the space time continuum to another space time continuum where it can resume its existence at some compound value below the proportion. In fact, pi-mesons exhibit just such behavior and have for over 50 years of Particle Physics.

Indeed, there is nothing thus far that contradicts this Unified Field Equation and it can be estimated quite confidently that nothing ever will.

Thus, the Unified Field Equation "nu=CG" stands as reality until it can be disproven, and the fact is that it cannot be disproven because it is the fact.

The benefits derived far outweigh the criticisms of an handful of limited thinking physicists and mathematicians. For example, if spin, as in that of the common gyroscope, defies or alters nearby gravity and gravitation, taking an orthogonal reactive course and exhibiting an othogonal reaction force, then a form of impulsion outside of dependence on Newton's Second Law, indeed outside of all dependence on propulsion type vehicles and science, can be utilized for design of a future vessel which can travel faster than half the Speed of Light and perhaps far beyond that.

Past descriptions and explanations of why a simple spinning top defies or alters nearby gravitation are just that, descriptions and explanations and not physical and mathematical facts; they do not fit the phenomenon under all circumstances, they lack dimensionalities such as Accelerated Frames of References and many other multidimensional and factual observations. This can only mean that our understanding of dimensions and our definitions themselves are either limited or erroneous.

And the fact stands out that if it does not move, it does not exist.

Which makes motion itself the first dimension, and that motion is by default curvelinear; the exact motion inherent in the spinning top.

Everything spins. Atoms, the Earth, the Moon, all the planets, the Sun, the Galaxy, all galaxies, the universe.

It is the only commonality in all of physics.

It took Albert Einstein many years to accommodate this and he arrived nearly at the same conclusion: everything is spin, the primary motion and the primary dimension.

Had he had but a few more years he might have drawn it all down to nu=CG. He was very close in his research. Perhaps too it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for some, even most, physicists and mathematicians to visualize first the entirety of the universe in spin, and then everything in it in spin, and finally to realise that there is only one true motion and that motion is spin itself. From there it is a mere step of simplicity to the derivation of all known physical laws from the simplified equation of spin and the Unified Field Equation: nu=CG.

Even the Big Bang Theory conforms to this single equation, and it must if the equation is the correct one.

Until it is disproven it remains as the true Unified Field Equation and as I said it cannot be disproven.

And that was done without any research funding whatsoever. So much for rewards. The whole thing is a gift to the curious and those seeking the highest education and the truth. Granted free of charge.

Now, can we start spending some money on what's really needed on this planet?

[edit] A Map of the Universe

A recent publication :: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0310/0310571.pdf :: includes a link (on page 50, http://www.astro.princeton.edu/~mjuric/universe ) to the various maps produced by the analysis. The linked-to page includes statements to the effect that the maps may be reproduced for 'classroom wall' display. Could/should they be incorporated into the wiki Universe article, i wonder? ed. (newolder)

[edit] Origin of name, "Universe"?

Kent Hovind said the name, Universe literally means a single spoken sentince. Uni meaning one, and verse meaning a single spoken sentence. As such he insinuates that the word, "universe" comes from the idea of god creating the universe by speaking it in one sentence. Is there any truth to this? Inforazer 14:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I have found two etymologies, but not that one (yet). Most commonly, dictionaries state something like "From Latin universa, unus or uni one + versus from vertere turn Via Old French univers. Originally literally all turned into one." rossnixon 09:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] uni verse = one word or all things accomplished in one word

Also, see this: Special Dispensation for the Big Bang theopsis

--CyberSongs 20:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Seems nonsensical"

My edits to the section "Size of the universe and observable universe" were just reverted with the comment "seems nonsensical". I'm concerned about this, because an encyclopedia article isn't very useful if it reads like nonsense. The fact is, though, that a lot of the old information in this section was just wrong, and it desperately needed rewriting.

The old content of the section was longer and had two references, both of them to poorly researched, inaccurate web articles distributed by general news sources. My revised version is much shorter and has only one reference (to an actual research paper). I deliberately reduced the size to avoid duplicating information that's already on the Observable universe page. I also updated Observable universe to explain why the numbers previously quoted in this section are wrong.

There's an unusually large amount of misinformation about big bang cosmology in the popular press, and I want to impress on people that just because you read in BBC News or Discover magazine that the universe is 156 billion light years wide doesn't mean that it actually is, or even that any cosmologist has claimed that it is. -- BenRG 15:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA on 12/3/06

I'm sorry, but this article has a few issues (and one glaring problem) that need to be corrected before it can become a Good Article. As per WP:WIAGA:

  • 1(a)- well-written/prose: A lot of individual phrases needed to be changed. To wit:
    • From "Expansion": "...the farther away from us galaxies are, the faster they move away from us." Writing should never be done in the first person; in this case, "us" should be "Earth."
    • From "Expansion": "As with most things in physics, that certainly wasn't the end of the story, as attested by the update and reissue of The First Three Minutes in 1993." This is an incredibly unencyclopedic sentence. I certainly do not want to sound condescending, as a lot of hard work has obviously been put into this article, but "that certainly wasn't the end of the story" is simply unacceptable.
    • From "Pre-matter soup": "..the first hundredth of a second was a bit of a mystery." Again, "a bit" should be changed. Ditto to "Fast forwarding to after the existence of matter..." from "First galaxies," "...there is no reason to believe that this bound is anywhere near right" from "Size," and a handful of other phrases that need to be improved in tone.
  • 1(c)- WP:MOS adherence: There are no real style problems, except for there being far too many external links. Please see WP:EL; external links should be kept to a minimum and only added when necessary, which many of these are not. In addition, it would be a good idea to list what source each link comes from, as opposed to simply including the article's title. This is not a big deal (one could simply scroll over the link to see the address), but it's a little touch that can go a long way.
  • 2- factually accurate and verifiable: The big one. The article currently has two {{citation needed}} tags, but there could be many more. For a topic this expansive, having only four references equals not having nearly enough references. I doubt there are any Good Articles within all of Wikipedia that contain so few references.

I know that this article could easily be a GA if a little more work is put into it. There are a lot of things to like about this article- it's very comprehensive, it's got an excellent image, and it's NPOV, touching on many different theories. Best of luck, and feel free to resubmit to WP:GAC when the above issues are addressed. -- Kicking222 16:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../u/n/i/Talk%7EUniverse_1ceb.html"