Talk:United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change

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I understood that a treaty has no legal effect until it is "ratified". I have been told that no major country has ratified the global warming treaty.

Please clarify:

  1. What does "ratify" mean?
  2. Which countries have ratified the global warming treaty, in the sense that they are legally bound to follow it?

Ed Poor

There is no "the global warming treaty". There are two global warming treaties -- the UNFCCC, and the Kyoto Protocol. All major countries, including the US, have ratified the UNFCCC. Only a few minor countries have ratified Kyoto.

The UNFCCC does not set out specific obligations -- it merely sets out a framework, by setting out basic principles and establishing institutions to work towards a solution. The Kyoto Protocol sets out specific obligations. The Kyoto Protocol is a protocol to the UNFCCC (a protocol is a treaty which supplements the provisions in another treaty, and you have to be a party to the other treaty in order to sign the protocol.)

Ratify means becoming legally bound by the treaty. All signature means is there is some intention to become a party, but it does not actually make a state a party -- only ratification does that. Exactly how ratification is done varies from state to state -- in the US, for example, it needs a vote of Congress. Once a country has completed the internal procedures, it deposits instruments of ratification (i.e. a legal document) with the depositary (the body which keeps track of signatures and ratifications, and which keeps the original copies of the treaty). Then, a certain number of days after depositing those instruments (often a month or two; the exact number is contained in the treaty), it becomes a party. Only once it has become a party is it legally bound by the treaty -- SJK

I think I get it. All the US ratified is the "framework" thing, which says global warming merits serious study. It's the Kyoto Protocol which requires emissions reductions, and I guess that's what the US Senate voted 95-0 against, right? Ed Poor
No. The framework doesn't say it merits serous study, it says that all countries should reduce green house gases whether or not there is enough scientific evidence to be absolutely certain (cf. Article II of UNFCCC). So to say "we shouldn't reduce green house gases just yet because we're not sure about the scientific evidence" goes against the framework.--69.212.98.139 22:32, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Also, the US Senate never voted on the Kyoto Protocol. Maybe you were being sarcastic, but if you believe what you say, you've seriously been mislead. --69.212.98.139 19:08, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, basically -- SJK

Okay, I gotta get going. No doubt all my changes will be deleted over the weekend :-( but that's okay. It's apparently the consensus of wikipedians (and politicians) that the "science is settled" -- but like Galileo, I say it still moves, he he. Ed Poor

(copied from Talk:Kyoto Protocol)

[edit] Annex I and Annex II

Signatories to the Kyoto Protocol are split into two groups: Annex I countries (industrialised countries) and Annex II countries (developing countries).

I've heard a lot about this, but the Protocol text[1] does not have references to "Annex II" within itself. There are references to "Annex II of the Convention", but the Convention (UNFCCC[2]) is the parent document. The Protocol only seems to refer to
  • "Annex I" - developed countries
  • "Annex II of the Convention" - another group which includes developed countries
  • "developing countries" - everyone else who signed Protocol

--SEWilco 21:31, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Technically, it's "Annex I to the Convention" (see Article 1) and "Annex II to the convention". Everyone shortens this to "Annex I" and "Annex II". Martin 18:20, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I gave those phrases as hints for searching the documents. My question is about "Annex II" references. Look at Annex I and Annex II [3]; note that Kyoto[4] only has Annex A, so its references to the parent document are apparent. The obvious problem with referring to Annex II as developing countries is that most in I are in II, including the USA. If you look at the references to "Annex" in the entire document, you see references to both Annexes as lists of countries, but the developing countries are referred to as "other countries" or "developing countries". So I'm puzzled why there are so many references to Annex II as if that is a list of developing countries; maybe there was an older Annex II and the number got reused for this newer list. SEWilco 20:51, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)
From a link on the UNFCCC main page, [here's] an example of use of the "Annex I" phrase and not using the "Annex II" phrase. (SEWilco 05:49, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC))

I fixed the Annex II references. SEWilco 18:35, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Full costs

The agreement also confirms the commitment[5] by participating developed countries to pay the developing countries their full costs due to possible or actual climate change.

Firstly, this was originally placed in Kyoto Protocol, when it should have been placed here.

Secondly, they're the "agreed full costs" - note key word there: the developed countries don't have to pay diddly if they don't agree that any costs have been incurred.

Thirdly, they are the costs due to implementing article 12: not the costs due to global warming. Martin 18:26, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)


(SEWilco 05:38, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC))
  • You're right about the commitment. Several paragraphs here belong under UNFCCC. This agreement basically has the numbers which are to be used in the UNFCCC.
  • The "agreed" amount is not between two countries.
  • Read Article 4 (Commitments) Paragraph 3[6] again.
  • The "Article 11" (Financial Mechanism)[7] "international entity" is what the developing country agrees with.
  • The Financial Mechanism was to be defined in the first meeting
  • and under ISSUES'[8] is Financial mechanism[9],
  • which says that the Council of the Global Environment Facility (GEF) is designated as an operating entity. So they deal with the money.
  • Apparently UNFCCC parties get one vote[10], and is open to a [tyranny of the majority] situation.
  • The "agreed full costs" is not only Article 12. Again, in Article 4, Paragraph 3, there is a reference to Paragraph 1, with quite a list, but note 1(e) covers adaptation, protection, and rehabilitation. (and it applies to "climate change", not mere "global warming", so it is not required that global warming be proven)
  • Oops. Full costs of man-made change. In UNFCCC Article 1 [11], "climate change" is defined as having the meaning of climate changed caused by humans. I forgot that words in political documents don't mean what they say. SEWilco 18:32, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] COPs

The article is a tad skeletal. About as bony as a truckload of sardines. I added some COP summaries from a U.S. Congress paper. (SEWilco 08:58, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Map

I'm sorry, with this number of countries, at this scale, I don't find the map very useful. I can see only Brunei, East Timor, Somalia, Iraq, French Guiana, Taiwan, Western Sahara (possibly the West Bank?) as non-signatories - and this can only really be seen in the high definition version, certainly not the thumbnail on the page. In any case most of these are either not fully independent and functioning states or clearly have other priorities. A (short) list of non-signatories would be more useful than the map, IMO. Rd232 21:32, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

So how does one learn if a country is a participant if there is no list? At what number should lists be omitted and the whole world assumed? Do you have a mechanism to ensure that a non-participation list is kept up to date as the existence of countries changes? (SEWilco 03:36, 30 July 2005 (UTC))
Er, what? I didn't say anything about not having lists - just that I don't think the map is very useful. Maybe a negative list has issues, but no more so than other lists. (Countries don't come and go that often.) Rd232 08:09, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Global warming no longer a matter of belief

Hi, I find the language of the first paragraph unbearable: The treaty aimed at reducing emissions of greenhouse gas, pursuant to its supporters' belief in the global warming hypothesis.

Today, this is no longer a "hypothesis" with a however limited number of "supporters", it is a globally accepted scientific explanation of an ongoing measurable climate change. Even hardline industry supporters no longer dare to deny this. Even Bush had to recognize. The only argument is about how serious it is and how best to combat it. --Johannes Rohr 11:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

It is important to be precise. The IPCC is said to represent scientific consensus, and it is certainly the most heavily peer-reviewed document in history. However, it is easily attacked, and lack of precision amongst IPCC proponents opens the door to more criticism from climate change contrarians.

With the emergence of complex ecological problems, such as climate change, there is a need to be more clear about what constitutes science and what constitutes policy, and how we manage the interface between them. It is no longer relevant to cling to old positivist notions of 'science as truth' or 'science as objective'. Decision support tools like the IPCC which seek to straddle the science-policy nexus represent a new form of applied science, created by the urgent need to act in the face of uncertain data.

More recent conceptions of science and science policy recognise that in situations of great uncertainty or great complexity (which are roughly equivalent in pragmatic terms) science can not be evaluated in terms of what is true or what is false. The problem can be resolved by increasing quality assurance through a broad process of participation; this is the realm of post-normal science. The IPCC, through the review process, is attempting to do just that. Using inclusive language, such as 'the belief', can facilitate that process of engagement. Or do we only want to preach to the converted?

It is known that the scientific community has a way of manufacturing a consensus around prevailing paradigms. The peer review process, funding circles and policy frameworks can all lead to the perpetuation of a dominant viewpoint. Whether the science behind the IPCC is good or not, it is highly probable that the consensus is to some extent inflated by the current dominance of the idea.

Given the enormous effort required to open the doors of the scientific community and put climate change on the agenda, it would be unwise to shut those doors behind us. If the history of science has taught us anything, it is that we are frequently very wrong. 203.134.61.65 06:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)Kirstyn Lee

[edit] COP6 and COP7

I'ev proposed merging the COP6 to the section of the same name in this article. Its' only a stub and there's no point keeping it.--NHSavage 14:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC) Ditto COP7.--NHSavage 14:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with World Climate Conference

I OPPOSE this proposal. The first of these conferences was about the science and lead to the formation of the World Climate Programme. The second seems to have been more of a political event but only lead to a ministerial declaration. It was not until the Earth Summit that any treaty was negotiated. I would propose that Earth summit and United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change should include each other in their See also sections but remain seperate.--NHSavage 09:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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