Talk:Ungoliant
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Assessment
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Ungoliant is a very controversial subject. Many people are unsure of what to call her, but in my opinion she cannot be a Maia or any kind of Ainur. Melkor himself fears her. Ungoliant may be darkness incarnate, or another proposition I have put forth both on Council of Elrond and now here. She may be Hades/Sheol incarnate. Many people will be unfamiliar with this term. They may recognize Hades from Greek mythology, but this is a different Hades. It is well known that Tolkien was a Christian. Though his books were not "Christian" books many of the principles he personally believed in worked their way into the book (such as the need for a god of Creation, the polarity of good and evil, etc.) Hades or Sheol is an anthropomorphized object in the Christian Bible. In English translations she is commonly referred to as "the grave." Proverbs 30:15b-16 NIV says, "'There are three things that are never satisfied, four that never say, "Enough!": Sheol, the barren womb, land, which is never satisfied with water, and fire, which never says, "Enough!"'" Notice, it list Sheol at the top of the list of things that are never satisfied. This reminds me so much of Ungoliant. Revelation 6:8 NIV says, "I looked, there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth." One translation says that Hades crawls behind Death. And another says that she devours everything that Death slays. These parts of the Bible and many others make Sheol/Hades appear very much like Ungoliant in my mind. In fact, one passage pairs up Sheol with the Devil. This reminds of the part of the Silmarillion in which Ungoliant and Melkor are teamed together slaying the inhabitants of Arda. I doubt Tolkien was using Ungoliant as a symbol of Sheol/Hades, because Tolkien despised allegory. I choose rather to believe Ungoliant was Sheol incarnate.
--Merond e 12:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Origin of the Name Ungoliant
The article first gives this etymology:
'In the form Ungoliant the name is technically Sindarin, but is a direct loan from Quenya ungwë liantë: "dark spider"'
But at the end of the Origins section:
"The name Ungoliant is partly derived from the root ungol ("spider"), which also occurs in Cirith Ungol, where Shelob resided..."
"Derived from the root..." of what language? And ungwë vs. ungol?
--Johnabdl 18:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- The Quenya form, Ungweliantë was 'Sindarinized' to 'Ungoliant'... Quenya 'Ungwe' becoming Sindarin 'Ungol'. The Quenya was actually more like 'great dark spider' (ungwe meaning both 'gloom' and 'spider'). The 'liant(e)' portion was outdated even in Quenya and doesn't occur in Sindarin at all. The full translation to Sindarin was Delduthling, 'spider of the horror of night', but apparently the Sindarinized 'Ungoliant' was more commonly used. Prior to coming up with 'Cirith Ungol' Tolkien wrote, "ungol darkness, ungor black, dark, gloomy. In N not used except in name Ungoliant, which is really taken from Q." - LROW, Etymologies - UŇG. Note that 'N' was his abbreviation for the language spoken by the exilic Noldor (as opposed to Q for the Quenya of Aman)... which he later determined to actually be Sindarin due to Thingol's decree that Quenya not be spoken. Thus, the usual Sindarin for spider was apparently 'lhing' prior to the arrival of Ungoliant. --CBD 01:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
