Talk:Underground film

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There should be some discussion of Remodernist film here, which seems to be taking underground film in a new direction, at least in America and the UK.

[edit] Johnny Terris

This name keeps getting put back in as a notable underground filmmaker. There are obviously many contemporary underground filmmakers who are know to small groups of people, but the three mentioned -- Craig Baldwin, Bruce La Bruce and Jon Moritsugu -- have a wider and longer-standing reputation than most, and therefore would best serve as examples. The fact that the person(s) who keeps placing Johnny Terris' name back in here seems to ONLY have been writing articles on Johnny Terris seems suspect...


Also, please note that on Johnny Terris's Official site, he describes himself as "a new face in underground cinema." The section under dispute in he underground film wikipedia entry states: "In the early 90s...This spirit defined the early years of underground film festivals (like the New York Underground Film Festival and others), zines like Film Threat, as well as the works of filmmakers like Craig Baldwin, Jon Moritsugu, and Bruce La Bruce." Clearly, if Terris is a "new face in underground cinema" then he could not have been part of the underground cinema of the early 90s. 141.155.136.90 03:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi; I'm here from the request for third opinion. I know nothing about film, underground or otherwise, but maybe my ignorance is balanced by a lack of bias. Doing some research on Google, it looks to me like Johnny Terris does not belong here (yet). In a few years I may regret my lack of prescience, but until then I would rather see listed names that add luster to the article, rather than have the article used to promote an individual. Tom Harrison (talk) 17:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Tom. Well, the user 24.196.30.175, who claims that he/she is *not* Johnny Terris, has re-inserted Terris into this definition yet again. You'll note that 24.196.30.175 has only contributed so far to this entry, barring one addition to the entry on the band Girlschool which -- coincidentally, perhaps -- Johnny Terris is currently doing a documentary about, according to the wikipedia entry on Johnny Terris. What is the wiki protocol at this point to deal with this? 141.155.136.90 23:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

There is the three-revert rule, which I will certainly apply if the page keeps getting reverted against consensus. Another option is locking the page. Both of these are only temporary fixes. The best long-term solution is to get more people involved in working on the page. If you know people who are interested in or have expertise with the subject, encourage them to follow the page and contribute. If there just aren't that many people who want to actively edit, it might be possible to merge this page into another that is more active. Or, it could go the other way; Some related pages might be merged into this one. Feel free to email me if you have any questions that don't belong on this page. Tom Harrison (talk) 13:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Compromise?

Again, I know nothing about film, but I wonder if there is some article on Wikipedia, in which Terris legitimately deserves mention, that could be merged into this article. I see an article on Cinema of Transgression; is this a sub-genre of Underground film? Are there other sub-genres? Or is there maybe room for regional sections like Underground film in the southwest or wherever? This might be a good opportunity to expand the article. It would require the attention of people who know about the subject matter; I can help with merging pages if that would be useful. Tom Harrison (talk) 20:41, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Regional sections might be vaild -- maybe "Underground film in Nova Scotia"? While Terris could be listed under the Transgressive Artists category, Cinema of Transgression is specific to a certain time and place (New York City, late 70s to early 90s), so that's not quite correct.

An argument could be made to merge Underground Film with Cinema of Transgression, although it would take some work. Mabye then more subheaders for more regionallly-known artists like Terris could make sense. The claim has NEVER been that Terris does not deserve some presence on Wikipeida, or that he has no stature whatsoever; it has been that his fame and influence is not great enough to constitute a generally known example of early 90s underground film as Baldwin, La Bruce and Moritsugu do, as googling shows. 141.155.136.90 19:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Text from WP:3O

I moved the following text from Wikipedia:Third opinion, in accordance to the third opinion procedure. If you wish to receive an additional third opinion, you can list the page again. You could also try Wikipedia:Request for comments or Wikipedia:Village pump if you want more people involved in editing. Aapo Laitinen 18:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Underground film: User 24.196.30.175 who appears to also be user 68.113.103.104 has continuously inserted the name of Johnny Terris as an example of a notable underground filmmaker definitive of the early 1990s. I had removed it as a vanity plug, as Johnny Terris does not appear to be a notable filmmaker, or at least not notable enough to serve as an example worthy of an encyclopedia entry. We appear to simply be going back and forth on the issue -- definite needs a third opinion, or even more! 141.155.136.90 03:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
      * Hi, the third opinion provided is being ignored. What to do next? 141.155.136.90 23:21, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Underground Film: User 141.155.136.90 is known for forcing his opinions on various Wikipedia pages. He claims over and over that Terris is a 'vanity plug' although it isn't (I doubt Terris even knows about this website). I am a head jury member of Sidewalk Film Festival in Birmingham, Alabama and Terris has been doing underground film for over 15 years, starting in Halifax, Nova Scotia. It would be wrong to NOT include him in an encyclopedia concerning underground film as his films push the bounderies of mainstream cinema very similar to the Cinema of Transgression and he has worked with such cult greats as Hershell Gordon Lewis and Gunnar Hansen. He was quite popular in Nova Scotia, Canada in the early 1990's with his short films. I believe it to be wrong and ignorant of user 141.155.136.90 to continue to delete this filmmaker solely because HE has never heard of him. Many others have (Terris and his films are widely popular towards the younger demographic, particularly females) and he has a right to be included. Wikipedia is based on fact, not OPINION and user141.155.136.90 has continually forced his opinion on these boards as gospel. It's rude, wrong and extremely unprofessional. I can see from his pages that he is not at all involved with film (or underground film), therefore should not be a editing a page concerning that topic. I have over 20 years experience within the film industry, the majority of which concerns cult/foreign/underground cinema/underground film festivals and I (as well as my peers) know who Terris is and admire his work in bringing undergound/arthouse film back to the surface. Please do something about this. Thank you.
  • You'll have to provide reference to my supposed 'forcing' of opinion on 'various WIkipedia pages' -- its called correcting errors and it is what wikipedia is all about. While I'm sure being the head jury member of the Sidewalk Film Festival of Birmingham Alabama has brought you a great deal of knowledge to the subject, perhaps if you could provide some sort of reference--an outside source, available online or otherwise--that could back up your claim of Terris' fame and importance. Googling Johnny Terris' name does not bring up anything substantial. You needn't be so defensive about this process -- if you can show his importance beyond your personal opinion, then please do so. Also -- please see "compromise" above for a possible solution. 141.155.136.90 19:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


This is Johnny Terris. Have to say this is quite interesting.
First of all, let me say that I’ve never even heard of wikipedia.com before this as I’m hardly ever on the computer these days. The user who has been re-adding me is an intractable (she's going to hit me for that! haha) friend of mine here who informed me of this juvenile back and forth “dispute” this evening when I went to pick her up (I am addressing you at her home right now..just imagine my amusement when I heard about this whole mess). She has since agreed (to my wishes) to give it up but I thought I'd foolishly have my say about it and clear things up.
Let me say for the record that I could give a shit if I’m on this website or not.
It’s not my style to insert myself into encyclopedia pages nor am I the type to engage in “vanity plugging” (trust me, my ego is big enough! haha). In fact I would rather remain unknown but as a filmmaker I also understand that there is some type of so called “fame” to that.
It does seem though Tom (from your pages and replies from people to you on those pages my friend showed me this evening) that you are pretty anal about what goes on here. Lighten up dude, you’ll live longer! You should do something more prolific instead of quarrelling with wikipedia folks about an insert which may (or may not) be each others personal opinions. I recognize that wikipedia may be a site based upon verity and that’s fine, but what is going on here seems to be ‘personal opinion for the sake of arguing’ to me, not necessarily fact. An internet google search is not the end-all-end-all of information. As I’m sure you know as a Christian, google is NOT GOD.
Lighten up man and relax.
Also, I do not run my official website, a friend in Maui, Hawaii runs it for me (which reminds me that he needs to update it).
The truth is I have done quite a few short films in Nova Scotia in the early 1990s but nothing really became of them and I certainly hope they never see the light of day again. They were underground films because they were passed around from college to college and people and they usually played at various parties for shock value. None were for sale, none were promoted or released, I never made a dime off them and I never once called myself a ‘filmmaker’ back then. NOT ONCE. It was all for fun more than anything which is what film is supposed to be about. As far as I’m concerned, when underground/antiestablishment film starts to become popular, accepted and begins to make money, it STOPS being TRUE & AUTHENTIC underground film. Real underground cinema and bona fide underground artists don’t do it for the almighty dollar or fame (or even a spot here on wikipedia for that matter).
Also as far as I was concerned, I was nothing more than a destitute punk rocker living on the streets with a stolen video camera making crazy movies with my friends. It has been other people (the public) that have labeled me an ‘underground filmmaker’ and/or "influential", which often happens when one gets ANY form of notoriety or infamy whatsoever; people make you into whatever they want you to be. It's one aspect of this "industry" I loathe.
After some pretty traumatic events in my life, I am just now stating to get back into film again after a long absence, mostly acting not directing. My films that I do though are much more slated towards the Cinema of Transgression/No Wave fan crowd (particularly the older ones) I have been very popular among some people and circles that is true (still am), but I doubt enough to be put in the caliber of most of the people listed here on the underground film page. Some of them, sure (I even know a couple of them personally and depending on what city/country you’re in, more people know who I am)..but most of them, no. At least not yet and I certainly don’t care to argue or dispute (seems to be the word people around here use) about my validity. I just don’t give a damn.

So with that said, you can leave me here or you can delete me from the page, I could care

less. I’m not particular fond of fame or having my name out there anyway. I do what I do because I enjoy doing it, not because I want to be “influential” or part of an online encyclopedia about underground film. While I'm flattered that someone was nice enough to add me to this website encylopedia, it's not nessesary and it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

Cheers & Beers, Johnny Terris.

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