Talk:Umar
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[edit] Regarding alcohol and Umar's character
Zora, your edit inserted the following Lines:
- "Shi'a Muslims point to these claims as proof of Umar's bad character. Sunni Muslims say that it is unfair to criticize him for following the ways and customs of his people before he converted, given that he regretted and completely abjured his former way of life."
I have not heard of these claims. All pre-Islamic Arabia drank alcohol. Where is it claimed that Shias use this as a mark of bad character? If there is no source, I would like to delete this addition. --AladdinSE 02:25, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think I've read in some Shi'a sources on Umar that his pre-Islamic behavior showed his evil character. The Shi'a contrast Umar's behavior to the behavior of Muhammad and Ali, which they say was pure and Islamic from birth, even before the formal proclamation of Islam. I should also note the insistence of the Shi'a editors on including the bits re infanticide and wine drinking seemed (to me at least) to indicate a concern with blackening his character. Zora 14:59, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree. It's obvious those edits were intended in those veins. I'm deleting the alcohol claim until the source is cited. It's so strangely put. He was not a drunkard, he drank as all Arabia drank before Islam. --AladdinSE 22:45, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reverting blanking of sections
A new user calling himself "Imam Mehdi" blanked chunks of the talk page and inserted some diatribes. I'm restoring the blanked parts, and I'll copy the diatribes here.
[edit] Can we delete the above diatribes?
I conscientiously copied out all the diatribes pasted by "Imam Mehdi" and didn't realize how LONG they were. I don't think they contribute anything to the article. Can they be deleted? Or should I make a special archive for them? Zora 23:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
- really from me umar is not more than dog --217.17.252.126 17:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
i deleted the bit about him being harsh to Hafsa because it was misquoted. (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/009.smt.html#009.3507) 1) It wasnt just a comment out of the blue. because of some reasons Muhammed had completely left his wives and gone into complete seclusion from them, so Umar was incensed by the fact that his daughter might have been instrumental in causing such kind of hurt to Muhammed that he completely leaves all his wives. 2) He had first approached Ayesha, the daughter of Abu Bakr to ask her about what had happened, but she told him that she has nothing to do with him and he has nothing to do with her. Also, I do not see why a person wanting to know who Umar was would be interested in such kind of subjective chatter. i said it before and im saying it again, this aint a forum to publicise your sect.--Blingpling 05:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Zora's recent edits
I've got too many articles on my watchlist and evidently haven't been keeping a close eye on what's happening here. I think we've had vandalism and reverts and edit wars. Some information disappeared, leaving stubs of sentences behind. I tried to rewrite and restore. Zora 08:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Gibbon quote
I reverted a legend that an anon had entered, without any refs, and I also removed the quote from Gibbon "proving" that Umar burned down Ali's house. That is just plain ridiculous. Gibbon wrote in the 18th century, before modern academic scholarship on Islam had really begun, and he was NOT particularly learned in matters Islamic. His opinion has zero, zip, zilch weight. He is still remembered, and read, but for his prose style and as an example of old-fashioned history, not as an authority on matters Islamic. Zora 02:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
regarding shia view of Umar, it is incorrect. Zaidi Shia's still regard Umar, as well as, Abu Bakr Highly. The section title should be either changed or reflect that of the Zaidi Shia's. Aalzaidaalzaid
Than please fix it where it requires fixing and provide references. Salam. --xx-Mohammad Mufti-xx 05:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Introduction
The introduction of this article says nothing about what Umar accomplished as caliph, and thus why he is important in world history. Arguably, he was more important as a political figure than a religious figure, but you don't get any sense of who he was from this article's brief intro. I think at least a paragraph or two about his impact on the course of Middle Eastern history would be appropriate for the intro section. Kaldari 07:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] p.34,35 of Madelung..
.. says the following (p.34,35):
When Umar succeeded to the caliphate, he met Sa'd by chance and asked him whether he still held onto his position. His answer was 'Yes, I do so, since 'this matter [the reign] has devolved on you. Your companion, by God, was preferable in our eyes to you, and I have come to loathe your neighbourhood.' Umar suggested that he leave, and Sa'd went to Syria, where he died in Hawran, probably in the year 15/636. His grandson Abd al-Aziz b. Sa'id reported that the jinn were heard chanting from a well that they had killed the lord of Khazraj. Abd al-Aziz did not speculate whether the jinn were acting at the behest of God or of Umar.
the derive this from the above is a misrepresentation of the source. there is no indication that Umar ordered the assassination of Sa'd, only that Umar had seemingly exiled him. ITAQALLAH 14:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Umar ordered the assassination of the Kazraji leader, the companion of the prophet
Well, this reference as well as the Muslim sources state what is mentioned about the event of Sakifa and the jinn assassination of Sa'd but also the name of the real person who killed Sa'd. It is the golden glow approach as you are trying implement here in order to depict Umar as a combination of saint and hero. Well that is all right as long as it does not contradict with history
Suhrawadi —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Suhrawadi (talk • contribs) .
- you are referencing Madelung, yet it has been proven that Madelung says no such thing, while adding in your own POV. that is deliberate manipulation of the sources, and certainly not welcome here. you do not seem to note the idiom on p. 78 which when read in the correct spirit (and not an advantageous literalism) shows he did not order any assassination and did not even actively work against Sa'd. your contribution violates the wikipedia neutral point of view and verifiability policies. ITAQALLAH 13:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Proven? By whom? Here are the exact extracts that I'm using:
Uthman's wrongdoings, it should be emphasized, must seem trivial from the perspective of later generations. Not a single Muslim was killed on his order, except in punishment for murder or adultery. The arbitrary acts of violence of which he was accused were confined to beatings, imprisonment and deportations. The sanctity of Muslim life enjoined by Muhammad was still respected. Abu Bakr had been forced to declare those refusing to pay the alms-tax to him apostates in order to make war on them. Umar had to call on God and rely on the help of the jinn to get rid of his political enemy Sa'd b. Ubada. Uthman by nature was averse to bloodshed, found it easy to comply with the prophet's injunction.(Madelung, Wilferd, The Succession to Muhammad, p78, Cambridge University Press,1997)
Another reason for Umar censure the Saqifa meeting as a falta was no doubt its turbulent and undignified end, as he and his followers jumped upon the sick Khazraji leader Sa'd b. Ubada in order to teach him a lesson, if not to kill him, for daring to challenge the sole right of Quraysh to rule. This violent break-up of the meeting indicates, moreover, that the Ansar cannot all have been swayed by the wisdom and eloquence of Abu Bakr's speech and have accepted him as the best choice for the succession as suggested by Caetani. There would have been no sense in beating up the Khazraji chief if everybody had come around to swearing allegiance to Umar's candidate. .(Madelung, Wilferd, The Succession to Muhammad, p33, Cambridge University Press, 1997)
Where is the idiom here? You have just been rehashing and recycling tired arguments of Umar’s devout admirers who tend to assess the role of Umar in the golden glow approach. This approach depicts Umar as a combination saint-hero and genius. But as Madelung shows us, as well as to many well-known Muslim references, this approach of your is divorced both from reality and history. At the end of the day, Umar was, as all the companions of the prophet were, just humans like the rest of us and they too vied for power and in the process many crimes were committed in order to reach and protect their interests. So It seems that you my friend is the one, whose your contribution violates the wikipedia neutral point of view and verifiability policies.
--Suhrawardi 22:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- yes, and as demonstrated by the quote provided on page 34-35, it shows that Umar did not literally seek the help of jinn. in the same way one says (for example) 'the traveller had to rely on the stars to navigate', it doesn't mean he literally went and asked the stars, but rather the action of the stars (i.e. positionining, light) was ultimately beneficial for the traveller. similarly, it can be derived that the action of the jinn was politically beneficial for Umar, not that he necessarily had a part to play (and in reality he is vindicated on 34/35). you are focusing on one sentence while neglecting its context: the whole passage is talking about how the caliphs did not order for muslims to be killed, which totally disproves what you are postulating. the second passage only indicates tensions, not any indication of intention to murder then or later. how fallacious then is it that you try to smudge these two phrases together to present a different picture entirely.
- as for your attempted characterising of my stance: keep it to yourself please. i only see misuse of a source on your part to forward your own skew of events. ITAQALLAH 22:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
What a great development, you now saying that the Jinn were indeed responsible Sa'd's murder...that is indeed a remarkable remark. So it is again a question of good faith in Umar, rather than a question of history as you are ready to advance the most flawed argument, just to clear the side of Umar. Still you did not did not speculate whether the jinn were acting at the behest of God or of Umar? --Suhrawardi 07:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- i didn't say the jinn were responsible, this seems to be what Madelung alludes to. she does not say that Umar was behind the death, yet you try to weave unrelated texts to draw this conclusion which is not supported by the texts. you are deliberately inserting misrepresentations of texts and original research, and i will have to ask you to stop. ITAQALLAH 14:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] sandbox
here is something i am working on --Striver 02:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] move
I reverted a move that contradicted previous consensus. --Striver 13:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
