Talk:Ukrainians

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Contents 1 Normanist/Antinormanist debate 2 Ukrainians in Moldova 3 Picture for Infobox 4 Ukrainians in Germany 5 rest of the Russians 6 Yushchenko in the pic 7 Requested move 7.1 Voting 7.2 Discussion 8 Number of Ukrainians 9 Ukrainians in Italy and Portugal 10 Khazars and Goths in Ukraine 11 Add Ruslana in the picture with famous Ukrainians! 12 Ukrainians in Brazil

[edit] Normanist/Antinormanist debate

This article could do with a little polishing... Scandinavian settled and Kyivan Rus was founded way before Christianity was accepted from Constantinople in 988 by Kievan Rus prince Volodymyr. Geraldo

I'd say it needs a lot of polishing, because:

• The foundation by the Scandinavians is only a one from three or more ethnological theories explaining the origin of Kievan Rus and Ukrainians (at least I was tought so in Ukrainian university);
• Like Geraldo says, adopting a Christianity was definitely not a starting point for Kievan Rus statehood. Kiev became a capital of Duchy when still being Pagan, and few Kievan Dukes before Volodymyr are known by their political and military deeds.

So let's go off West-centrical position. I`m looking forward to edit&widen Ukraine`s historical stuff radically, but it would take a lot of time since I don`t specialize in history. --AlexPU 17:33, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainians in Moldova

According to CIA factbook 2005 estimate (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/md.html) out of Moldova's population of 4,455,421 , there are 13.8 % of ethnic Ukrainians. This gives us 614 848 Ukrainins... (The number includes Ukrainians in Transnistria where they make up more than 25 % of the population). (Fisenko 05:01, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC))

Let's use the latest officially available data. For Moldova there's the 2004 census: [1]

• Moldova, excluding Transnistria : 283,000 (8,4%)
• Transnistria: 162,000 (28%)
• Moldova: 445,000

bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 14:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

CIA factbook is a very credible source. In this particular case I would consider CIA to be more neutral than Moldavian government. (Fisenko 04:14, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC))

CIA factbook may be a very credible source, but it still uses the old data from the 1989 census. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 07:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Picture for Infobox

Please note that contrary to a common beleif, Khrushchev is not an ethnical Ukrainian. See his article and his talk page. The picture needs to be modified. --Irpen 00:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Done. Replaced by Korolyov of the same time. --Irpen 03:09, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainians in Germany

I've heard alot of Ukrainians reside in Germany; however no numbers are given for Ukrainians in Germany here.

[edit] rest of the Russians

Ukrainians used to be part of the Old Russian stock up to the 14th century. However, long history of separation and foreign influences have perceptibly reshaped their ethnolinguistic identity splitting them from the rest of Russians.

What does this mean? Should be removed/reworded if noone can explainIlya K 10:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I've improved the wording, but I think it's still over-generalized to the point of inaccuracy. Anyone know more about this? —Michael Z. 2005-11-12 17:09 Z

Actually all the people of former Kievan Rus refered to themselves as Rus'kie and their homeland modern Ukraine, Belarus and Europea Russia as Rus even as late as the 17th century (the term is still in use, name Rossiya (Latin version of Rus) was only popuralized by Peter the Grear). In English language it is called Kievan Russia and Rus' people are called as Russians even in those times in either English or Russian. The only people who are trying to change it recently are often nationalist Ukrainian and Polish academics. Fisenko 20:05, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

In modern English, Rus’ is not the same as Russia, and I think Rus’kie a thousand years ago is not the same asRusskiye or Rossiyskiye today (but I don't speak Russian). I guess your nationalist conspiracy is succeeding, because "Kievan Rus" outnumbers "Kievan Russia" in Google results by a hundred to one. Welcome to the twenty-first century. —Michael Z. 2005-11-12 21:14 Z

The word Rossiyskiye in Russian language applies only to things not to people. The term Rossiyane is only used by politically correct government officials. Majority of Russians always called themselves (and still do) Ruskiye exacly like majoity of Ukrainains called themselves between 11th and 18th centuries. Nobody denies Ukrainians are a separate nation today, however, they didn't existed as a separate nation in the middle-ages. PS I wouldn't call it "conspiracy" but rather a trend or fashion. Fisenko 21:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough; sorry if my reply sounded testy. In this sense, neither Belarusians, Russians nor Ukrainians existed as separate nations a thousand years ago, although I understand there were at least regional linguistic differences by then.

I think the words Russkiye and Rusyny were used in much the same fashion, simply to refer to "our people", and of course were sometimes adopted to support national and political points of view. But as far back as the late 1700s the Austrians used Ruthenen to refer to East Slavs who called themselves Rusyny and were obviously different from Russians. The definition of nationality has more to do with politics and self-identification than it does with genetics or linguistics anyway, and today it's polite not to call Ukrainians Russians, nor Russians Ruthenians. Likewise, we (try to) avoid bad feelings by referring to Kievan Rus, and not Russia. I don't see anything wrong with it, if we can leave it at that and get on with contributing to the Wikipedia. —Michael Z. 2005-11-12 22:43 Z

[edit] Yushchenko in the pic

Looks for me like orange propaganda and POV. It is not politically neutral to place this one-year president among the greatest Ukrainians, since he is highly disputed in the own country and his achievements so far are doubtful. Why was Sergey Korolyov removed?? He is an everywhere respected person and his achievements for the humanity are clear and undisputed.

I suggest to restore the old pic and keep Wikipedia free of political bias and subjecitve preferences. Voyevoda 09:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Yushchenko has the advantage that he is possibly the most-recognized Ukrainian in English-speaking countries today, but I agree that Korolyov is more neutral and probably lasting figure. —Michael Z. 2006-01-17 18:30 Z

I think currently Yushchenko is undoubtedly the most recognizable Ukrainian today (possibly just behind Shevchenko) and despite accusations of his progress that kind of popularity should not go unrewarded. This Wikipedia entry should reflect its current status, not be some museum for old Soviet relics! (unsigned)

We need some balance and diversity here with respect to different times and different fields. The modern concept of the nation was born in the 19th century and it seems reasonable to not go any further back. I also doubt Bohdan Khmelnytsky, a notable figure for wure, would be very recognizable and someof his actions ring unpleasantly to our Western neighbors. Taras Shevchenko tops the list without a doubt. Lesya Ukrainka seems the most notable Ukrainian woman. We need one modern very recognizable person, and Andriy Shevchenko (currently) or Ruslana are the obvious choices. I would think that now Shevchenko is the most recognizable but Ruslana's fans may disagree. Having a scientist as a fourth figure seems a good choice for a complete diversity. Besides, it is a good idea to have a person who attained notability in the 20th century (we have 19th and 21st already). To call Korolyov a Soviet relic is an outright nonsense. There is no need to politicize this. Any president is recognizable. I don't see many presidents in other ethnicities' articles. --Irpen 20:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Number of Ukrainians

Dear User:Lysy 47,425,336 is the number of people living in Ukraine and 77.8 % of them are ethnic Ukrainians (subject of this article) which adds up to about 36,000,000 ethnic Ukrainians living in Ukraine. Reference: CIA -- The World Factbook -- Ukraine Fisenko 02:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainians in Italy and Portugal

Are you serious about 500 000 Ukrainians in Italy and 300 000 in Portugal ?

These numbers seem incredibly high. Obviously there is much bigger Ukrainian communities in Germany, Poland and USA.

If anything these includes all the temprorary guest workers from Ukraine to ever visit these countries (still I doubt the numbers) and defenetly not the numbers of permanent residents of Ukrainian ethnic origin in these countries. Fisenko 05:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This data on labor migration. Probably they aproximate, but their gives "World congress of ukrainians". Askold Lozinskiy, President of the congress, confirms that this numeral (500 000 in Italy and 300 000 in Portugal) Ukrainians in that moment (2003) in these country. I suppose these numbers can be published with note that data is aproximate.

Here is else reference [2]. On calculation Ministry of Labour overseas constantly work more than 3 million people Ukraines. Of them 500,000 legal (Including in Portugals 80,000). --Yakudza 23:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Temprorary workers, especially illegal, are very hard to count let's stick to the numbers of Ukrainian diasporas (permanent residents) abroad. Fisenko 16:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Khazars and Goths in Ukraine

1) Only Khazar upper class and nobility converted to Judaism the majority of population remain pagan or Christian. 2)Khazars did not remain in Ukraine and Jewish Diaspora was virtually no-existent in Ukraine until the Ashkenazi Jews started to settle in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1500s. Fisenko 12:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I find it amusing that Ukrainians are said to be descendants of Goths and Varangians. Even though Ostrogoths settled north of Crimea, they took off long, long before Ukrainians as a distinct nation started to emerge. Varangians were Scandinavian mercinaries in Kievan Rus', and I don't think they arrived in such numbers as to have any effect on the genetic "composition" of present-day Ukrainians. Both these claims need to be supported by some solid evidence rather than someone's imagination. 134.220.203.115 14:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Read the article again. It never said that Ukrainians are descendants of Goths and Varangians. On the opposite it implicidly states that Ukrainian origins are overwhelmingly Slavic while non-Slavic nomads who mostly lived in the steppes of southern Ukraine had little influence on the ancestors of modern Ukrainians Fisenko 14:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is the bit: "Ukrainians are the descendants of several peoples who inhabited the vast area extending from north of the Black Sea to the borders of Russia, Poland, Moldova, Belarus and Slovakia. These people included numerous nomadic tribes such as Persian-speaking Scythians and Sarmatians; Germanic-speaking Goths and Varangians" :-))) By the way, if the Slavs and the non-Slavic nomads lived side by side, how can you be sure they did not inter-marry? 84.67.221.237 02:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Add Ruslana in the picture with famous Ukrainians!

Please add Ruslana in the picture with famous Ukrainians. This is not fair! She deserves it more than the football player!!!!!!!!!!!!

I added Ruslana 2 times in the picture but someone removed it!

Ruslana is much famous than the 4 mens from the picture!! Do you have someting against womans?????

Who thinks that Shevcenko is much famous than Ruslana is crazy!!!!!!!!!!--Alexandru Busa 16:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem may be that putting her in over and over and over again may appear to some to be a bit fanboyish. She's also nowhere near as notable as Shevchenko; believe it or not, she's virtually unknown outside of Europe, and even in Europe she's considered by many to be a one-hit wonder. Wikipedia should be an encyclopedia, not a slave to what's hot in pop culture right this exact minute. It would be a bit like putting Barbi Benton (look her up) as an example of a notable American. --Charlene.fic 09:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainians in Brazil

I've edited the figure for Ukrainians in Brazil to 550,000 per the reference given. There is no evidence for a figure of 1,050,000. --Charlene.fic 04:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)