Portal talk:Ukraine/New article announcements

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I notice that User:AndriyK seems for some reason particularly nervous about Chernigov spelling, totally ignoring other un-orthodox spellings, like Czernichow or Lwow. See his edits on Vsevolod Svyatoslavich for corroboration. Cannot we finally reach some decision concerning Chernigov/Chernihiv row, something on the lines of Talk:Gdansk/Vote, which could be implemented accordingly? --Ghirlandajo 12:11, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Whatever decision we reach, it should not contradict the Wikipedia policies (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)). Encyclopædia Britannica uses "Chernihiv" as the title of the article and applies this name to all periods of the history, strating from the first mentioning of the city. Britannica refers to Chernigov or Cernigov as Russian names of the city. Therefore it has nothing to do with the traditional English spelling. Britannica uses traditional English spelling in the titles of the articles. Please compare to [Kiev].

I have a CD copy of Britannica 2004, and it uses Chernihiv in articles on modern politics and Ukrainian state and Chernigov in all the articles on pre-1917 history, usually specifying in blankets that it is (now Chernihiv, Ukraine). Anyway, Britannica is not an ultimate authority on Slavic subjects. It proclaims "Poor Lisa" one of the finest Russian novels, lists Ivan Krylov as a short-story writer, and derives Dolgorukov family from Yury Dolgoruky. Currently, your behaviour may be compared to that of an Irish fundamentalist who frantically and unilaterally changes Dublin to Baile Átha Cliath in every article he can find. This is a far cry from the Wikipedia Guidelines you pretend to defend. --Ghirlandajo 13:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I have to point out once more: in the article Chernihiv this name is applied to all periods of the history. Britannika can contain mistakes concerning some subtle points, but I hardly believe they do not know what are the correct English names of the geographic objects.--AndriyK 13:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

The spelling "Chernigov" is indeed in use. We can mention this in article. But there is no reason to use the Russian name instead of the English one everywhere in the text.

Note that Chernihiv has been never renamed. (It's not like Tsaritsyn->Staligrad->Volgograd). Therefore there is no reason consider the spelling "Chernihiv" as anachronizm.

Conclussion: the accepted English spelling Chernihiv should be used everywhere in the Wikipedia articles.--AndriyK 13:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

It is funny to argue that the name Chernigov does not exist using querry http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9023842?query=Chernigov&ct=. But anyway there was no city named Chernihiv (or Chernigov) before 1918, there is no city officialy named Chernigov since 1991, the city had two names in between 1918. Thus, no Chernihivs for the pre-1918 events, no Chernigov for after-1991, discretion of the article's author inbetween. abakharev 14:01, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal voiced by Alex. It is similar to the naming policies accepted for Constantinople/Istanbul, to cite one example only. --Ghirlandajo 14:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Constantinople/Istanbul is not the appropriate example. It's like Tsaritsyn->Stalingrad->Volgograd, i.e. the city was renamed. Chernihiv has been never renamed. Please compare

Istanbul Turkish Istanbul , formerly Constantinople , ancient Byzantium [1]

and

Chernihiv Russian Chernigov, or Cernigov [2] Two quite different words: "formerly" and "Russian", aren't they?--AndriyK 11:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

You lie again. Istanbul has been known by its Greek name until the 20th century, and that name is still used in most article on pre-20th century history. And you lie that Chernigov never was renamed. In fact, it has never been known officially as Chernihiv until 1918, at least. And the town is still Russophone, if you've been there recently. Its inhabitants still call it Chernigov, whatever you Halychyans have to say. --Ghirlandajo 11:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Did somebody here claime that "the name Chernigov does not exist"? Please read carefully what I wrote.

If you have any prove that the city was renamed in 1918 or in 1991, please provide the references.--AndriyK 14:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

First you should provide a *single* pre-1918 English-language source alluding to the town as Chernihiv. Look at your favourite 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, for instance. It is available online. --Ghirlandajo 14:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

We have to use modern English. "Pre-1918" English is irrelevant to Wikipedia.

As I have shown above Chernihiv is used in modern English for all periods of it's history.--AndriyK 11:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

It is worth noting that, like every subtle vandal, you start to pretend discussing your actions only after having vandalized today 60 pages or more. First rename several dozens of pages, and then start discussing your changes - very smart... Do you think other editors have the time to clean up the mess you keep introducing? --Ghirlandajo 11:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A comment

Dear russian friends, you try to keep using russified names of cities in english. USSR was known in whole world as “Russia” and russian language was defacto state-language of USSR. Names of all soviet cities was spelled from Russian versions. Examples: Chernigov/Chernihiv; Kiev/Kyiv; Kishinev/Chişinău; Kanev/Kaniv; Vitebsk/Vitsebsk; Gomel/Homyel; Grodno/Hrodna (do you need more?). I have take a look at Talk pages of pages of these cities. Interesting picture – russian lobby... Now take a look at the Ukraine’s map published by US National Geographic Society. You will find Chernihiv there. --Gutsul 11:02, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Gutsul, I know that you were summoned here by AndriyK to advance his cause, but please respect the truth. Uke wiki may be a propaganda machine, just like the Polish wiki is. But in this English wiki, you have to respect its international status. Noone objects that Chernihiv is the spelling preferred by the Uke government now in power. But it doesn;t mean that every mention of the town in the historical articles imported from EB1911 should be changed to tally with the current spelling promoted by the Kievan regime. --Ghirlandajo 11:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo, try not to use such phrases as Kievan regime it have nothing to do with our discussion. Ok? Today is 28.10.2005 and you tell me that EB1911 the only true source? In 1911 russian government was in power... And that is why we are having all these discussions. --Gutsul 15:04, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't say it is the only source. Perhaps you don't know that many articles here are imported from an 1911 edition, just like many Russian wikipedians pillage Brockhaus-Efron. I say it is foolish to change Chernigov in the imported articles to Chernihiv, as if the latter name would be more familiar to English readers. --Ghirlandajo 17:45, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Usefulness of Correct Spelling

If one looks at the bigboards with driving directions in Ukraine, as a rule the latin names of cities are brought to correspondence with their Ukrainian spelling/prononciation (not Russian), also international travel agencies operating in Ukraine are officially encouraged to use the standard latin spellings derived from Ukrainian names of cities and places. Since the main purpose of Wikipedia is to provide the up-to-date information, it is much more important to ensure an English speaking traveller can easily look up the data from the names she reads on the big boards, maps, various signs in Ukraine instead of making her jump through the hoops searching for some old-style equivalents. We can hardly expect from an average foreigner to be aware of all sorts of transformations the naming policies underwent over the years. Please, please, please, let's not sacrifice user-friendliness and usability of Wikipedia in favor of undue academism. Let's use the most current and officially accepted names for the Ukrainian geography at least. --ashapochka 15:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for my rudeness, but who you are? Did you come also here from the Uke wiki to make this one remark and disappear? It is always suspicious when one-edit contributors start advising on proper English usage. No offence intended. --Ghirlandajo 17:49, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

My dear Sir, I beg you to accept my sincere apologies, for not introducing myself properly. You can think about my voice as that of a long-time en:Wikipedia user, who enjoys finding the desired information quickly. Therefore would you please consider my opinion as a sort of user's feedback. In addition, I believe, a reasonable comment has its value by itself even in case it is not backed up by the iron-clad authority of the contributor, isn't it? And yes, I am definitely from Ukraine and this is also why my comment in question is founded on the facts that should certainly be taken into account if we talk about making en:Wikipedia helpful to those users interested in modern Ukraine. Respectfully yours --ashapochka 19:33, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New articles bot

Please support my request at Wikipedia:Bot requests#New articles bot. This will save all reporters much time.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)