Template talk:UKFormation
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[edit] Statute of Rhuddlan
I'm not sure the Statute of Rhuddlan should be included in this template. It was basically a law dealing with the internal arrangement of Wales. The Acts of Union 1536-1543 joined England and Wales together, which was really the first step in the creation of the UK. --JW1805 (Talk) 22:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
- I think you mean the Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542 :) The 1535 Act refers constantly to the new shires in the Marches being created to a similar model as "the three Shires of North Wales". Those three having been created by the Statute of Rhuddlan. It also makes reference to towns being annexed to other existing shires such as Glamorgan, Carmarthen, Cardigan and Pembroke. The 1535 Act is merely to do with laws in an existing English dominion — a dominion which was created by the Statue of Rhuddlan. Owain 10:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
- My understanding is that Rhuddlan created Wales as a personal feif of the King's. This is not the same thing as uniting the two kingdoms. For example, the Kingdom of Ireland also shared the same monarch as England, but they were two separate kingdoms, not united until the Act of Union 1800.--JW1805 (Talk) 15:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
- There was no "Act of Union" between England and Wales. The area of Wales was gradually conquered by the Anglo-Normans in the same way as England was. The conquest began in 1066 and was finally complete by 1282. Hence the Statue of Rhuddlan confirming that all the lands were now part of the same realm: "The Divine Providence, which is unerring in its own Government, among the Gifts of its dispensation, wherewith it hath vouchsafed to distinguish us and our Realm of England, hath now of its Favour, wholly and entirely transferred under our proper Dominion, the Land of Wales, with its Inhabitants, heretofore subject unto us, in feudal right, all Obstacles whatsoever ceasing; and hath annexed and united the same unto the Crown of the aforesaid Realm, as a Member of the same body." Owain 09:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
- Look, when I say "Acts of Union", I mean the "Acts of Union 1536-1543", even though they weren't called that at the time, that's what they are called now. Your quote says that Wales is "under our proper Dominion....subject to us, in feudal right" and "annexed and united the same unto the Crown". This seems to indicate what I'm saying (and what is said in the various Wikipedia articles) that Rhuddlan put Wales under the English Monarch as a personal feif, but did not quite merge Wales into the Kingdom of England. Just because the same King ruled England and Wales doesn't mean that England and Wales were the same state (see Personal union). The so-called "Acts of Union" had the overall effect of joining England and Wales together, and creating a new state (or legal entity) England and Wales, where Wales now had representatives in the English Parliament. Thus, these acts are the counterparts of the later Act of Union 1707 (which joined England and Scotland), and the Act of Union 1800 (which joined Great Britain and Ireland).--JW1805 (Talk) 16:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
- I don't care what you like to call them, they are not Acts of Union. The Acts of Union of 1707 and 1800 were passed by both the Scottish and Irish Parliaments respectively, as well as that of England. That is what is meant by "union". The Laws in Wales Act 1535 was only passed by the English Parliament to extend English law into a dominion that was already part of England. That is not a union. The correct titles of the Acts are "Laws in Wales", irrespective of what you think. Why you insist on renaming the article is beyond me. Why not have a go renaming some other Acts while you're at it? How about renaming the Licensing Act 2003 the Binge-drinking Act 2004? You are in danger of violating the Three-revert rule - I think we need someone else to mediate here... Owain 19:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
- I think we are off-topic here anyway. Discussions about whether the Wikipedia article should be "Acts of Union" or "Laws in Wales Acts" should be discussed at Talk:Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542. I put in a Request for Move on that, so hopefully others will contribute to the discussion, and it will be settled one way or the other.--JW1805 (Talk) 23:51, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
- I don't care what you like to call them, they are not Acts of Union. The Acts of Union of 1707 and 1800 were passed by both the Scottish and Irish Parliaments respectively, as well as that of England. That is what is meant by "union". The Laws in Wales Act 1535 was only passed by the English Parliament to extend English law into a dominion that was already part of England. That is not a union. The correct titles of the Acts are "Laws in Wales", irrespective of what you think. Why you insist on renaming the article is beyond me. Why not have a go renaming some other Acts while you're at it? How about renaming the Licensing Act 2003 the Binge-drinking Act 2004? You are in danger of violating the Three-revert rule - I think we need someone else to mediate here... Owain 19:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
- Look, when I say "Acts of Union", I mean the "Acts of Union 1536-1543", even though they weren't called that at the time, that's what they are called now. Your quote says that Wales is "under our proper Dominion....subject to us, in feudal right" and "annexed and united the same unto the Crown". This seems to indicate what I'm saying (and what is said in the various Wikipedia articles) that Rhuddlan put Wales under the English Monarch as a personal feif, but did not quite merge Wales into the Kingdom of England. Just because the same King ruled England and Wales doesn't mean that England and Wales were the same state (see Personal union). The so-called "Acts of Union" had the overall effect of joining England and Wales together, and creating a new state (or legal entity) England and Wales, where Wales now had representatives in the English Parliament. Thus, these acts are the counterparts of the later Act of Union 1707 (which joined England and Scotland), and the Act of Union 1800 (which joined Great Britain and Ireland).--JW1805 (Talk) 16:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
- There was no "Act of Union" between England and Wales. The area of Wales was gradually conquered by the Anglo-Normans in the same way as England was. The conquest began in 1066 and was finally complete by 1282. Hence the Statue of Rhuddlan confirming that all the lands were now part of the same realm: "The Divine Providence, which is unerring in its own Government, among the Gifts of its dispensation, wherewith it hath vouchsafed to distinguish us and our Realm of England, hath now of its Favour, wholly and entirely transferred under our proper Dominion, the Land of Wales, with its Inhabitants, heretofore subject unto us, in feudal right, all Obstacles whatsoever ceasing; and hath annexed and united the same unto the Crown of the aforesaid Realm, as a Member of the same body." Owain 09:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
- My understanding is that Rhuddlan created Wales as a personal feif of the King's. This is not the same thing as uniting the two kingdoms. For example, the Kingdom of Ireland also shared the same monarch as England, but they were two separate kingdoms, not united until the Act of Union 1800.--JW1805 (Talk) 15:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] 1920 Government of Ireland Act
This didnt essentially change the title of the United Kingdom as it remained The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland until the Anglo-Irish Treaty. I understand the importance of it in terms of dividing Ireland into North and South but is it important enough to be in this template? --Horses In The Sky 12:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
