Talk:Tyrannosaurus rex

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All the internet refs need to be footnotes. User:SEWilcoBot The text refs for the books need to be IDed somehow, perhaps in parenthesis. Write article "T-rex's image in popular culture" and summerise in article. :Thought for a long time to be the biggest dinosour. <= No it wasn't! T-rex the rock band Films and literature Kids Figure out status of the image Image:Sue'sBrain.jpg. Take out questions. Don't refrence to Jurassic (movie). Please be bold in editting the article and in editing/adding/strikeing out items from this list.

Contents 1 Old peer review at... 2 Contentious but Unreferenced Stuff 3 Predator vs scavenger 4 Doubts about T. rex? 5 Images and templates 6 More predator vs. scavenger stuff 7 Mary Higby Schweitzer 8 Walking, running or hopping? 9 "Dethroned as the Largest Therapod"? 10 Manospondylus gigas 11 My edit summary 12 Trivia 13 Baseless Assertions 14 Assorted queries 15 Rare? 16 Tyrant lizard king or King tyrant lizard? 17 Nimba Creations Model pic 18 Guanlong

[edit] Old peer review at...

Wikipedia:Peer review/Tyrannosaurus rex/Archive1

[edit] Contentious but Unreferenced Stuff

As the article currently stands, the third paragraph under "Predator, Scavenger or Both?" contradicts factual material presented in the first two paragraphs under that section, but does not cite any references. Also, the third paragraph doesn't seem to be aware of the existence of the preceding material, since the question the third paragraph raises ("But why be so well armed if T-rex was a scavenger?") is already answered (because breaking bones is handy for extracting marrow).

There are similar but less severe problems for the last paragraph under the section "Adapted for running?" A citation for the consensus walking speed of T. Rex is provided, but no citation is provided that supports the claim that chickens and crocodilians are an inaccurate model for T. Rex locomotion. No information is supplied to suggest wind resistance is a significant source of resistance to movement for T. Rex, or chickens. It is unclear what a carnivorous diet has to do with locomotion in this context. And the point about muscle structure and the resultant uncertainty is taken, but it is certainly true that as a result of examination of bone processes a lot is known (as opposed to inferred or guessed) about the musculature of T. Rex.

Much of the aforementioned stuff is repeated under "Discussion of Horner's Claims." And the last two paragraphs under that section are redundant.

In short, this article needs some specific cleaning up and quite a bit more citation for the predator model of T. Rex lifestyle. I know something about the subject, but I don't know the literature, so I'm not sure I should be the one to do this. I'll give it a week or two and if nobody else steps forward, I'll do some surgery myself. --Jeff Medkeff | Talk 17:06, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Predator vs scavenger

much as modern-day lions often take the kills of hyenas and other smaller predators.

This example is not good since it's usually the hyenas who steal from the lions.

http://www.wildwatch.com/resources/mammals/lions.asp and http://www.geocities.com/lions_of_safrica/scavenger.htm say otherwise. Actually, the theft ratio is highest for lions stealing from cheetahs and leopards. --user:Belltower

OK, I'll agree that both lions and hyenas are thieves of each other, but it's not clear which does most. There's no doubt that both will steal from the smaller cats. Eclecticology

What real difference does it make if Tyrannosaures Rex stole kills from other animals. Yes a lion my steal a kill from time to time but the bulk of their diet and indeed their morphology is exquisitely suited for bringing down prey. The same can be said of T. Rex

Most predators of which I am aware are not above stooping to eat someone else's kill if it is readily available

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What other pictures of parts of the T Rex to upload. I have the front arms/claws, the feet, the backbone and tail, and more (bigger) pictures of the skull. Any bigger pictures of the skull will show the armature which is holding up the fossil bones. Any requests? As you can see, the Field Museum has the holiday decorations up. I can't get rid of those til later, and it will take a trip to Chicago to get more pictures. There are pictures with people in them to get an idea of the size. Also, I have to shrink the images because they can be huge. Is there a use for the huge pictures. Ancheta Wis 01:24, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)

---

[edit] Doubts about T. rex?

I was watching a discovery program which questioned the widely held belief that T. Rex was a mighty predator. As evidence the small useless arms, the ratio of its leg bones (making it a slow runner) and poor vision is presented. This combined with good smelling leads paleontolgist Jack Horner to think that T. rex was not a predator but instead a scavenger. Has anyone heard about this, do the ideas have any support in the science community, and could someone write a section about it?

A google search turns up a few interesting hits[1].

This image, taken at the Field Museum of Natural History, shows the size of the right arm. Bear in mind that the arms of this T. rex are as large as a man's arms, and that T.rex could definitely do damage with them. Note the claws; they are as large as a man's hand. Ancheta Wis 06:43, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC) Also, note the wishbone between the clavicles of T.rex. This is the first wishbone of T.rex to be found.

[edit] Images and templates

At Polish Wikipedia there are some images, that ilustrate everything about T. rex. That's all my pictures you can download them, they are under GFDL license. I prepare them for international use so there are, no texts on images (generaly, when I could do that). The word is: Tyranozaur.
I can cooperate with exchanging infos and images about dinos (write any questions on my discusion page in English).

You can make comparisons between human and dinos using my templates, at Media Wiki- Commons there are more informations, images plased at Commons are directly accessible at your language Wiki, like it was placed at your language Wiki file repository. But you must be sure that, file with the some name doesn't exist on your language Wiki file repository! -PioM

[edit] More predator vs. scavenger stuff

I don't have a reference for this on-hand, but I've heard it argued that the number of calories an animal as large as T. rex would require in order to survive would've prevented it from breing able to subsist on carcasses alone. In other words, it needed to eat too much and too often to just wait around for things to die.

I'm not a paleontologist, but I know enough to say with some certainty that the metabolism of T-Rex and dinosaurs in general can only be speculated in.

Another theory is that the tyrannosaurs as a group evolved in response to the enlarging, slower-moving and heavily armored prey animals that coincided with their own evolution. This parallel alone would, at least on the surface, seem to indicate predator-prey coevolution between the tyrannosaurs and the herbivores of their time. Under this hypothesis, the tyrannosaurs' "scavenger" adaptations actually served to help them prey on large, slow, well-armored prey such as the ankylosaurs, and so as a group they would not be expected to have evolved the features of smaller, more agile curosrial predators, but would have done fine with larger versions of otherwise scavenger-like features. Even vultures sometimes prey on defenseless and slow-moving animals, and when opposed by a tyrannosaur, very few contemporary species could've defended themselves adequately. A good solid bite from a Tyrannosaurus rex would probably be lethal to any land animal that ever existed, unless either heavily armored (allowing it more time to escape) or large enough to fight back and prevent recieving such a solid bite to begin with (such as Edmontosaurus and Triceratops) -- thus giving the animal some hope of surviving the encounter.

Wouldn't the large brain of Tyrannosaurus rex be a possible indicator of a scavenging lifestyle? Hominids were thought to have first begun evolving high intelligence while scavenging in the savannah, and Crows (also scavengers) are the most intelligent group of birds. It's also interesting to note that both Hominids and Crows are generalists, and many of the features of Tyrannosaurus rex seem adapted for any of a variety of functions, indicating that it too might have been a generalist (possibly leading to the theory above, that it would have to hunt and scavange in order to intake enough calories). --Corvun 09:42, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mary Higby Schweitzer

When one of us wikipedian get time, we need an article on Mary Higby Schweitzer. I thought she had to be really lucky from this article. [2]

[edit] Walking, running or hopping?

When dicussing the way the T-Rex walked, why is it that people always get the idea that the T-Rex walked or ran? Isn' it more likely that it hopped around, since it had legs, arms and a tail like a Kangoroo ? Maybe it even killed its pray by hopping on top of them? seriously - ever thought of that? Anonymous

The T-rex wasn't built like a kangaroo. It doesn't look like a hopper to me. Alexander 007 05:30, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, the "sliping" article isn't from my keyboard - maybe the author even meant "sleeping"? :-) actually I must say that my question was rather serious - and your explanation hasn't yet convinced me. What does the T-Rex have, that the kangaroo has not? Anonymous 17 June 2005

You seem to be looking only at the superficial outline of a T-rex's body---but the T-rex is not built like a kangaroo, nor is it the size or weight of a kangaroo---and it could not hop like a kangaroo. Case closed. Alexander 007 7 July 2005 03:00 (UTC)

Or sliping? 81.63.79.237 12:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, not a hopping or a slipping (?) creature. What verb do you want to try next. Alexander 007 08:06, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hopping is terribly inefficient for larger animals. Remember that the relative energy expenditure is a function of the absolute height of the jump. Or: a larger hopping animal makes higher jumps, but this isn't compensated by the fact it's larger.--MWAK 21:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a reaonable explanation (better than just 'case closed' :-) ) - can you show this also by the physiognomie of the T-Rex? Does this reflect somewhere in the skeleton? -- Anonymous, 4 Dec 2005

Well, the hopping adaptations of kangaroos reside mainly in the tendon system. It would be difficult to translate that to a theropod skeleton, in order to see whether or not some smaller species hopped. But you weren't the first to think of this possibility, see e.g. http://dml.cmnh.org/2002Apr/msg00082.html. Also consider that none of the many small theropod foot prints found show a hopping animal. For a giant like Tyrannosaurus even running is suspect: the main reason Hutchinson thinks T. rex couldn't run fast (maximum 25mph) is that the leg would likely collapse by the impact of a larger vertical movement. Gregory S. Paul is presently working on a model showing that T. rex could still run if only it used a running mode that minimised that vertical movement. Still this would reduce speed, so the old 45mph estimates are definitely abandoned, I fear: about 35mph is the best we may hope for.--MWAK 19:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I’m removing the unsupported claim “T. rex also had very large legs compared to body length, suggesting it could have run long distances.” Frankly, saying T. rex could run long distances simply because it had relatively long legs is like saying a car is fast simply by looking at it without seeing what’s under the hood. Further, the leg structure (shin to thigh length) in T. rex is the exact opposite of what should occur in long-distance runners. As far as I know, long legs simply provide long-distance strides. This, however, only suggests that T. rex could be relatively fast while walking. Long-distance running has more to do with the efficiency of the heart than it has with long legs. If anyone insists on keeping the deleted assertion, at least please provide sources showing correlation between long legs and long-distance running. Thanks. --Every1blowz 13:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Good work. Even if it were a logical inference, unless there's a scientific paper that suggests T.rex could run long distances because it had long legs, or that it could hop, etc., any mention of such things would be original research and thus against the rules. People, if you don't have a cite for a claim, don't put it in the article.Dinoguy2 14:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Dethroned as the Largest Therapod"?

"New finds have dethroned it as the largest theropod, but T. rex will very likely remain a point of ongoing scientific research and popular culture."

This is highly debatable. The two or three therapods now considered to be larger than Tyrannosaurus are known from very scant remains, and their size estimates overlap with those of Tyrannosaurus. Also, the Dinosauricon website's entry on Tyrannosaurus states that new fossils have been found in Asia of a T. rex (or possibly another Tyrannosaurid) that are so large, compared to those of more complete finds, that they suggest a Tyrannosaur much, much larger than the new finds which have supposedly "dethroned" T. rex as the largest therapod.

It also bears mentioning that even a layman's glance at the reconstructed fossils shows a Tyrannosaurus far more athletic and agile than any of the other (comparatively clumsy) animals that are anywhere near its size. Even the smaller and more lightly built Spinosaurus looks as if it could hardly rear up on its hind legs, let alone run on them. --Corvun 17:33, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

I've also heard that the few therapods that could be considered "larger" than T.rex (Giganotosaurus and Spinosaurus) were only centimeters longer, and significantly lighter. So if we're going on overall size icluding weight, T.rex is still the largest therapod.--Rob117 01:15, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Two points:

1. It is theropod :o).
2. The remains of Spinosaurus found by Stromer are very difficult to interpret; it's possible they indicate an individual that was a third longer than Sue. This individual was a subadult; later found fragmentary remains indicate specimens that are again over a third longer (not larger) than the Stromer one. For some mind-boggling details, consult http://dml.cmnh.org and search for "largest theropod". Especially http://dml.cmnh.org/2003Dec/msg00216.html might be very interesting--MWAK 21:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Manospondylus gigas

A few years ago there was talk about having to change T.rex to Manospondylus gigas, because a vertabra found and named in 1892 as M. gigas is now recognized as belonging to T.rex, which was not named until 1905. In 2000 this was solved by the ICZN making a new rule, so the name T.rex stayed valid. Should we put this in?

See http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/dino/faq/s-class/priority/

--Rob117 23:51, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes Lengis 20:45, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My edit summary

My edit summary from (02:46, 22 November 2005) stated: "Copyedit. The checkpoint is still 'frequently' manned according to sources, if not permanently. Please no not remove my edits, but add to them. Also, please add source. That's how NPOV is achieved." All I meant to type was "Copyedit", and the browser cache apparently filled out the space with an earlier edit summary that also began with "copyedit" for a completely unrelated article that I edited before. I just noticed this today. I'm sorry for any confusion this may have caused. Ramallite ^(talk) 22:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

LOL! I was wondering about that! Banana04131 03:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Dinosaur Comics contains a T-rex as a main character. Lots and lots of comics, movies, TV shows, etc use T.rex as a character. While I'm not opposed to a pop culture section entirely (though preferably as a seperate entry), on its own this is pretty useless. Dinoguy2 21:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Baseless Assertions

From the most recent batch of edits by 83.131.61.72:
One would expect that scavenger might not need the advanced depth perception that stereoscopic vision affords, but rather a wide area of sight generated by sideways-pointing eyes. However, this is hardly a convincing evidence, since many modern-day scavangers, such as jackals and hyenas, in fact have binocular vision like their predatory cousins. Terms like "one would expect" are weasely (Wikipedia:Weasel_words).
"Hardly convincing" for who, the author? Provide a cite which supports or does not support the assertion. Do not clutter Wikipedia with personal opinions or observations.

Also, some theropod dinosaurs which definetely classify as skilled hunters had eyes positioned sideways, not gaining benefits of binocular vision (Deinonychus, an active predator if there ever was one among dinosaurs, is perhaps the best example
First of all, there is no source to back this up. I would not expect there to be, since Deinonychus is notorious for having strongly binocular vision! The statement is not only terribly misleading, it is flat-out wrong.

However, it also suggest that this particular Edomontosaurus managed to escape, which shows that even if it was an active predator, T. rex was sometimes unable to catch his prey.
While true, I think this statement is so obvious ('predators sometimes fail') that it is unnecessary.

Comparassion with modern birds, the closest living relatives of theropod dinosaurs, speaks in favor of such hypothesis; most of the largest birds of prey (vultures & condors) are scavangers, while the smaller ones (hawks and falcons) are active hunters.
Again, a statement which lacks scientific evidence. Either provide a cite to the paper that reports this statistic, or don't include it.
I'm including this text here in case the author wants to modify it and return it. For now, I'm reverting this stuff. Dinoguy2 21:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Another one-

Some scientists, including noted hadrosaur expert Jack Horner, claim that T. rex was unable to run quickly and was primarily a scavenger. Others insist that T. rex was a fast runner and primarily a predator.
This approaches weasel language unless anybody can point to a scientist besides Horner who thinks T.rex was an exclusive scavenger, which is Horner's contention (as opposed to the stated 'primary' scavenger). I'd venture to say all scientists think T.rex was a scavenger to some degree, so this whole statement is misleading. I'm fixing it, this is just fyi. Dinoguy2 03:40, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Assorted queries

1. The article gives the size differently at two points, 12m long and 6m tall (was actually "Over 40 feet tall, 20.4 feet in length", but that's clearly a transposition error or overlooked past vandalism), and 13m long and 5m tall (on the scale image) - are both correct (i.e., within the range of variation of measured fossils according to modern ideas of its gait) or is the former based on older, outdated ideas of a more upright body carriage?

In the absence of any comment, I've matched the size in the text to that on the scale image - MPF 16:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

1. Feathers - I remember reading somewhere some evidence (or speculation) that T. rex juveniles had feathers (i.e., down, like a modern bird nestling) but that adults didn't: anyone know anything about this?
2. No mention of the recent discovery that T. rex skeletons can be sexed on the structure of a bone which is used as a calcium store (for egg-laying) in females, but not so used in males (matching modern bird bone anatomy). This should go in, if anyone has the details. - MPF 17:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

1. 13m is probably a little on the high-end of size estimates, but not that far off base (most T. rex would have probably been smaller than this). Keeping the text in line with the diagram is ok by me.

2. The ancestors of tyrannosaurids (i.e. Dilong paradoxus) had feathers. Therefore it would be reasonable to assume T. rex had them too, if not for the fact that small portions of preserved T. rex skin exist and show a pebbly pattern (not sure if these are actual scales or just bumpy skin as in some birds). So a few folks (like National Geographic) have speculated that maybe T. rex lost its feahters as it grew, but had them as juviniles (their reasoning being that smaller animals would need the extra insulation). This is all just speculation, so I can't see much justification for including it in the article, really.

3. The gender discovery you refer to was published by Schweitzer and Wittmeyer, 2005. Very interesting, and maybe someone who has the actual paper can write up a paragraph on it. IIRC it came from the same specimen that yielded preserved blood vessels.Dinoguy2 21:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! After posting these queries I noticed the medullary bone does get a mention in Dinosaur#Feathered dinosaurs and the bird connection (Reproductive biology para) - MPF 21:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rare?

"Its fossil remains are relatively rare; as of 2005 only 30 specimens had been found"

Isn't that actually rather a lot? For a large predator that is. John.Conway 11:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll say, most dinosaurs are only known from one!Dinoguy2 13:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Unless someone objects, I'm going to change it. John.Conway 14:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree, that's a surprisingly large number for a top predator that one would expect to have had a very low population density - MPF 01:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tyrant lizard king or King tyrant lizard?

I was under the impression that species names were usually adjectives modifying the species name. For example, Microraptor gui means "Gui's small thief" not "small thief Gui", Struthiomimus altus means "tall ostrich mimic" not "ostrich mimic tall", etc. Thus shouldn't the species name come first in the translation? Shouldn't it be "king tyrant lizard" instead of "tyrant lizard king"?Dinoguy2 03:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC) Agreed, change it. John.Conway 03:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

You seem to have forgotten that the translation, when seen as a coherent whole, must also make sense in English. Now that language is not my native tongue, but it seems to me that there can be a king that is a "tyrant lizard", but not a lizard that can be a "king tyrant". However, as the species name is rex and not regalis, perhaps we should not see it as a coherent whole: the creature is then simply "tyrant lizard" and "king" :o). Or do you interprete it as a title: King "tyrant lizard"? --MWAK 14:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I've always assumed it was like "emperor penguin". Maybe a better translation to English would be "king tyrant-lizard"? John is better with the etymology stuff than I am, so I won't change it myself.Dinoguy2 14:44, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nimba Creations Model pic

I think including this pic on this page is decidedly stretching the limits of 'fair use'. Note the rather explicit copyright notice on the pic. On the page about the company, maybe fair use, but not here as well. Suggest removal. - MPF 01:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Yep, remove it. I don't like it much anyhow. - John.Conway 01:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guanlong

I added a quick note on Guanlong. Personally, I think we should add a section on evolution/ancestry/relatives. -- Writtenonsand 23:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that sort of thing would be more appropriate on the Tyrannosauroidea page.Dinoguy2 03:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

"Appropriate", perhaps. But every news article on Guanlong has mentioned Tyrannosaurus (or T. rex), so the lay folks will be expecting to see a mention on this page (and very few if any popular-press articles have mentioned the Tyrannosauroidea.  :-) )
IMHO Guanlong would have to be linked from Tyrannosauroidea, as you say, but should also get a mention on Tyrannosaurus/Tyrannosaurus rex. -- 201.51.230.198 12:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but if its going to be here, I recommend putting it down with the Other Tyrannosaurs section. There's no reason to include Guanlong in the top paragraph aside from the fact that it happens to be in the news this week. There was a similar flare of public interest in early tyrannosaurs when Eotyrannus and Dilong was found, and i don't see those dinosaurs mentioned anywhere in this article, so I hope the need to mention Guanlong isn't due to the paleo equievelent of a fad...Dinoguy2 14:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)