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[edit] Links

Retrograde is a redirect page to an article about astronomy. Invariance is a page that lists various mathematical and physical concepts. Where those links should go instead, if anywhere, is something that those who care about this page should think about. Michael Hardy 17:55, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The retrograde page did, however, include a link to Musical terminology, which previously discussed retrograde. I just changed that link to Counterpoint, which discusses "Contrapuntal derivations" including retrograde. Invariance (which redirects to Invariant), also discusses invariance as it relates to twelve tone music. Hyacinth 18:22, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Outline

My proposed outline for this article:

1. Intro
2. Antecedents (Scriabin & others using transposed pitch class sets such as the magic chord)
3. Schoenberg's invention, rules, and suggestions; Hauer's system
4. Description of basic techniques
   1. Integer notation of row
   2. Mod 12
   3. Matrices: An I-Matrix shows the prime form from left to right, retrograde from right to left, inverse from top to bottom, and retrograde-inverse from bottom to top, being named for the integer on the top or left rows.
5. Historical summary of Schoenberg's and others uses including more advanced techniques
   1. Derivation
      1. trichord
      2. tetrachord
   2. Partitioning
   3. Combinatoriality
      1. Semi-combinatorial sets are sets whose hexachords are capable of forming an aggregate with one of its basic transformations transposed.
      2. All-combinatorial sets, Six basic hexachordally all-combinatorial sets
   4. Invariance
6. Final

Hyacinth

[edit] music

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[edit] Disambiguity

We should create a page called "dodecaphonism" that redirects to this article. --Pat 02:30, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Only if we think readers are really going to look for this subject under that term. Hyacinth 01:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additions to the outline

The combinatoriality section should also include first, second, third, and sixth order all-combinatorial hexachords. In addition to the definition of these orders, there applications to various theorems could be included. (For example, the pattern of M5-symmetrical and TnM5, TnM7 mappings in first order all-combinatorial hexachords.) In order to arrive at a complete explanation of basic combinatoriality, aspects such as complementation, Tn, TnI operations, and most of Rahn's common-tone theorem should be used as a primer. Inclusion of the combinatorial matrix would also be a good introduction to the topic. I would also include a section on the use of the set-complex to construct a 12-tone row. For this to be effectively achieved, perhaps a seperate article that covers the second part of Forte's "The Structure of Atonal Music" is needed. For a strong introduction to combinatoriality, the section would basically summarize chapter 5.6 of Rahn's "Basic Atonal Theory," as well as some of Perle's text and Babbitt's articles in "Perspectives of New Music." 65.9.15.143 04:28, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

See Combinatoriality. Hyacinth 01:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

I removed the following:

• "In modern music, noted electronic innovator, Tobi Love, used the technique applied to dance music and classical, allowing songs of either genre to switch back in genre comfortably."

I couldn't find mention of Love on AllMusicGuide. Hyacinth 10:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC) Hyacinth 10:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A confusing topic

The twelve-tone technique is a confusing topic, but that doesn't mean the article needs to be confusing. I think that there's some language in the article that would make it impossible to decipher for someone who isn't educated in the subject, so I added the template at the top of this talk page. Smedley Hirkum 18:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Which language is confusing? Hyacinth 01:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The title of this article is a travesty

"Twelve-Tone System", as a musical term, is flawed and misleading. The compositional system invented by Schoenberg is correctly termed "Twelve-Note System", and this is the phrase that is most often used in Britain. "Twelve-Tone" is a direct translation of the German “zwölf Töne” or “zwölftönig”, and musical Germanisms such as this have been infecting English, especially American English, for over a hundred years, and should be purged from the language.

The terminology may be acceptable in German, but it is not in English. We are really dealing with "notes" here, and not "tones", and it should not be necessary to explain the difference to anyone with a modicum of musical knowledge.

I strogely urge that this article be re-titled.

Cbrodersen 12:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I have seen the term "twelve-tone" used extensively throughout english writing. I have encountered "twelve-note", but only as a rarity. Perhaps this is a matter or regional dialect, but I think you'll find the majority of English speakers use "twelve-tone" (offhand, it wins by a landslide in a googlefight). Also, if you want to look at the music of Schoenberg, the 12-thing groups are only sometimes twelve notes in length, they often stretch on as he repeats small cycles of pitches within the row, but they always have the twelve pitches. I'm not sure where you're going with "infection" of "Germanisms", but whatever their means of introduction into the English lanaugage, the article should reflect the terms people actually use, not one person's personal ethics about what belongs in the English language. I've added a small note at the top about the use of this alternative name for the technique. - Rainwarrior 19:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)