Talk:Twee pop

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[edit] Initial talk

I still have my copy of C81, the C86 predessor cassette the NME gave away in 1981!! quercus robur

Suggestion: for the rest of the world who do not speak the British dialect of English, could someone add a definition of what "twee" means? I think it means "sweetly cute to the point of being disgusting", but since (1) I speak the other major dialect of English, & (2) I only know of the meaning of "twee" from people who are very hostile to the concept of "twee", someone who can provide a NPOV definition of twee should add it here. Thanks. -- llywrch 20:41 Mar 9, 2003 (UTC)

What are jangling lyrics? I've reworded the first sentence; hopefully this is what the author intended. Quincy 22:13, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)


[edit] No other twee

This article has been moved from Twee pop to Twee on the grounds "that there is no other twee". Yes there is, the word 'Twee' itself which can be applied to many things other than pop. For example, the village of Bourton on the Water is described by many as "twee", as is anything knowingly or overly cute. Of course WP isn't a dictionary, but I think the artcile move was a bit premature. Graham 04:53, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

  • What I meant was (and maybe I am wrong) but there aren't any other noun definitions for twee. Other definitions are adjectives. Kingturtle 04:59, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm not convinced by your definition of 'twee'. You make it sound like it means cute which I think is not the case. Dictionary.com gives us "affectedly dainty or refined" and "Overly precious or nice." That emphasis - 'dainty' 'precious' 'refined' is more to the normal meaning of 'twee' than 'cute'. An example Americans can relate to - almost everything sold by Martha Stewart is twee. Picture postcard quaintness rather than Hello Kitty. Harry R 18:37, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd always heard that C86 was the beginning of indiepop, which evolved into twee when Sarah came along. Pre-sarah music didn't contain so much of a childlike element as that which came after.--Tinyfolk 04:22, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is this catagorization of bands as "twee" -ish objective? ...Or are there bands that are only kind of "twee"? ...And is there thought to a list, perhaps on this page, of bands that have been removed from this list? ...just curious. David Gale 03:25, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Question, isn't twee under the umbrella of indie pop? I know a lot of acts with K records is considered indie pop but not twee. Mirah would be an example of that.

i added 'park ave.' under the band listings.

  • Yes, twee pop is a subgenre of indiepop that started, from what I can tell, with Sarah Records.--149.159.85.99 17:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Band lists

I've moved all of these here until we WP:CITE sources to WP:V that they are twee. - brenneman(t)(c) 14:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Is this really needed? Lists of example bands to illustrate a genre are very common, as well as assigning a genre to a band on the appropriate page. Wouldn't a better policy be to leave the list on the page and let people take or add bands individually? If you object to having the list on this page, the list can be moved to a page of it's own, and discussed there. Putting the list on a discussion page decreases it's visibility and thus the chance of it actually being worked on. Arturus 09:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
On an additional note, after re-reading policy pages, I'm increasingly convinced that assigning genres to a band is not stopped by No Original Research, and is probably not stopped by a need for citation, being inherently verifiable, although this is on shakier ground. Basically such a verification is possible by anyone from their own experience, given knowledge of two things: the sounds the classification describes, and the sound the band possesses. A list such as this is given to give examples of the sound being discussed so that a reader can, if interested, find their music and listen to it for a better understanding, or so a reader can find additional bands in a genre they are interested in. This process, combined with a well written article, provides knowledge of what the genre sounds like. Listening to a band provides knowledge of what the band sounds like. External citations are still possible and useful, but this seems to me to be a case where it's not needed to include the information. Should you have any objections to any individual bands being on the list, by all means bring them up. Arturus 10:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Arturus
There is almost nothing that is inherently verifiable. This is actually an issue about Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, supported two levels down by WP:CITE. The WP:NPOV states that "[W]e should state facts and not opinions." Please have a look at Green Day to see that what genre or subgenre a band is in can be quite contentious. - brenneman(t)(c) 14:07, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Alright, that's fair. Let's see what I can do for this list. Because of the nature of the topic, can we agree to accept reviews on music oriented websites as at least verification that the opinion a band is a twee exists? If we're not going to accept that much, I'm not sure where to start here. I'll build a list of sources assuming we can agree to accept that for now. Arturus 21:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I think it could be agreed that bands listed in bold type on twee.net's band list would be solid examples of the genre, so I have attached to the page the list of those bands.--Tinyfolk 17:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of the Television Personalities on this page? Surely they invented 'Twee pop'? Baba Alex 13:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

  • The Television Personalities are often cited as a proto-indiepop band as well as Josef K, Orange Juice, The Go-Betweens, Dolly Mixture and even some of Jonathan Richman's solo work. Bands are not usually declared indiepop until the era of the C-86 tape. See above discussion for difference between twee pop and indiepop.--Tinyfolk 17:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] page title

I note that twee pop has been at twee for some time, on the ground that there's no other twee — indeed, an article about "twee" would just be a dicdef. But is twee pop actually ever described as simply "twee"? I don't think it is. Surely this article would be better at twee pop, with a redir from twee? fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 14:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Agree. I was suprised by this article's content, which is never a good thing. - brenneman(t)(c) 14:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I third that, I was expecting some kind of description of twee as in the English English sense of the word. I'm going to remove the redirect. - FrancisTyers 03:44, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cuddlecore

Cuddlecore only exists as an American genre and I edited the entry to reflect that as well as adding the two most undisputed examples of cuddlecore I know. Cub, for instance, has the slogan "Cuddlecore '94" printed on the inside liner notes of their second album, "Come Out, Come Out".--Tinyfolk 17:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] punk?

Regarding the removal of various punk catagories, I think that it is the case that twee legitimately traces it's origin to punk, as a part of indiepop. As such, I'd like to retain at least the punk genres catagory. For that matter, I notice it's not on the indiepop article either. I'd definitely like to add it there, even if it stays off of twee, as it as a much more direct relationship to punk. Anyone object? Arturus 09:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'd still like to see it as a punk sub-genre as well as in indie-pop.
—Ragdoll 22:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I added them to both articles. Arturus 22:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

All alternative rock genres have roots in punk rock. So it's redundant. WesleyDodds 03:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Except for the fact that all accounts of the start of Indiepop describe it directly as a :response to and an assimilation of values with regard to the then also fairly new punk :movement. For simplicity's sake, I'll reference the most readily available account, the :pitchfork feature:
Let's say it's 1977. You live in London. And with punk going full-steam-- in this new scene :that's abandoned sophistication and chops, this scene that insists anyone can start a band-- :you start thinking: Why not me?
Only there's a problem. Punks act certain ways: They're loud and angry, or else they're arty :and clever. They yell and make unpleasant noises and put safety pins through their bodies and :belongings. And you...well, sorry, but you're actually pretty normal. You have a schoolboy :voice and you'd feel stupid spiking your hair or pulling on bondage trousers. The punks sneer :at most everything that came before them, but you don't sneer much at all, and you certainly :don't see any reason to stop loving the Kinks and Syd Barrett. Truth is, you make a terrible :punk-- so what are you going to do?
If you're Dan Treacy, you and your friends rename yourselves after talk-show hosts and start :self-releasing your songs as the Television Personalities.
Indiepop, and it's subvariety Twee, are not just influenced by punk because they're alternative. They were there at the begining of it all. That's why it's relevant to call indiepop a punk genre. Twee is a weaker case on these grounds, admitedly, but I'd still contend it works.Arturus 03:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Gothic rock was also there pretty early on (1979 at the latest when Bauhaus (band) released "Bela Lugosi's Dead", earlier if you count Joy Division), but it's labeled as alternative rock. Most sources I have seen do not label indie pop or twee pop as punk rock unless they consider all descendants of the genre as punk rock.
Twee pop in a way is a prime exmaple of alternative rock in that it utilized aspects of the punk movment (musical amatuerism, DIY ethics and dsitribution) towards a completely different sound. WesleyDodds 04:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
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