User talk:Tvoz

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[edit] Phil Ochs

Howdy Tvoz,

So far am pleased with the edits on the Phil Ochs Wiki entry. I'll be sure to stay tuned and see how it evolves over time.

Peace,

Geneisner 06:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - I think it's shaping up now too, and things are in better proportion. (The prominence of hat AFTRA note was bothering me!) Tvoz 06:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

	Thank you for contributing to Wikipedia! You recently added an external link to fansite in an article. It has been removed because the link pointed to a non-encyclopedic source. Please refer to Wikipedia's policy on external links for more information. --Veinor (ヴエノル^(talk)) 04:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

my response: Whoa, wait a second - I didn't add that item, I reverted an arbitrary edit made by an anonymous editor, who then went in and posted an inane reason for deleting it. Why are you coming in 2 seconds after I reinstated it with this? Did you even look at that source? Also, how about discussion on the talk page before coming in with a hammer? I'm reinstating it. Tvoz 04:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC

It's a myspace fansite, two things that WP:EL forbids. Veinor (ヴエノル^(talk)) 04:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I removed a level 3 warning template here per [[User:Birgitte|Birgitte§β]]'s suggestions on my talkpage that I had previously inserted. Veinor (ヴエノル^(talk)) 06:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, cool it - I'd like an admin to come in here please - I'm asking for this to be discussed, and this editor is just ripping off an item (not a very important one, by the way) that has been standing on the page for a while. Tvoz 05:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

If you want an admin opinion, you should probably post at the Aministrator's noticeboard. {{helpme}} doesn't bring in an admin. Other options you could explore are filing an WP:RFC and further steps in Dispute resolution. Honestly however that external link does not belong, and I don't think any admin or RFC will give you a more favorable opinion. --Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 05:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome. Feel free to ask me if you need any other dorections around here. It can be very confusing about where is the right place for answers. Alot of the people doing cleanup work, like removing improper links, work off long lists and tend to get impersonal as they continully leave the same messages again and again. It is really hard to stay fresh and not get short with people when continually getting negative reactions for doing unexciting but very necessary grunt work. I am sorry that you had a bad experience today. I've personally been on both ends of these things in my time here so I am a little more philosophical about it now. It is generally best to assume the cleanup person knows something you don't and ask about the policy backing up what they did, which in this case is WP:EL. I understand that the warning about blocking you while answering your question doesn't really help things, but I always try cut people doing that kind of work extra slack. --Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 05:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, let me see how clearly I can explain this. At Wikipedia, fansites and links to Myspace sites are generally not allowed. There are exceptions to the fansite rule that this could possibly fall under, given its popularity, but the MySpace rule still covers it. It states that links to social networking sites (which MySpace is) are not allowed unless "mandated by the article itself." Basically, they're only allowed if they need to be mentioned specifically (e.g., for criticism). Therefore, the link was viewed as inappropriate. I apologize if i came off as impersonal; after a while, you just start to run on autopilot when you're cleaning up articles. Veinor (ヴエノル^(talk)) 06:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You're welcome!

Sometimes I think there's too many help pages to be helpful. There's just so much to learn here!

Where do you live that you don't observe DST? I live in Indiana, and we just switched over this year. I hate it. -- Merope 02:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Murray the K

Great job on the Murray the K article! I didn't know his son but we went to the same high school, McBurney School, and I did get to meet Murry the K once when he visited the lunchroom. That would have been pre-Beatles, say 1962, but he was already a big name in New York, and I especially remember the collecctions of oldies - meaning 1950's hits - he had on LP records - great at dances. Revmoran 19:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe his name was Neil Kaufman - he was several years younger and I only really knew he was a student because of the time his father came to school - which was quite an event. Revmoran 17:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cat Stevens

Good work : ) Mrtea (talk) 03:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bronx Zoo

Hello Tvoz,

Regarding Bronx Zoo and the Yankees; For non-Yankee fans/anybody whose unfamiliar with NY Yankees, "for the book about the Yankees, see Sparky Lyle", it's seems not in a right place/unclear, since Bronx Zoo and Yankees has no relation beside both in Bronx, New York. You cleared the problem, by adding the book's name in last edit. I thought it was a joke, my apology.--Stavenn 11:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] re:Email

From what I can remember you had put {{subst:promophoto}} instead of {{promophoto}} which had the effect of copying the entire template including the bits that should be included (wrapped in <noinclude> </noinclude>) in the image page. The upshot of all this was that the images were included in a number of categories that they don't belong in i.e. "Unfree image templates". If you have a question about a specific image, please drop a note at my User talk page. Megapixie 11:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem - I've been here over a year and I still come across things that are confusing... Megapixie 22:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] License tagging for Image:Clockers book.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Clockers book.jpg. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 05:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Science Nobel Ranking

Tvoz,

I figured that I'd respond to your question on the Bx Sci talk page so any of the curious could see the answer, but here's what I posted there:

According to the table on the Nobel Laureates by country page, 7 laureates is the number shared by India and Spain, which are tied for 21st. I'm assuming that 10th was inaccurate in 2003, but I don't know what source. I figured that there would be at least some curiosity about this, which is why I included the reference when I made the change.

Feel free to drop a line if there's any questions, or just post them there, I'll keep watching.

--Prainog 02:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unspecified source for images

archived: Image:Reggiejackson.jpg, Image:Lou Gehrig.jpg, Image:Yogi larsen.jpg, Image:Mickeymantle.jpg, Image:Rogermaris.jpg, Image:Thurman Munson.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:MurrayWINS.jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be a justification explaining why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the file also doesn't have a copyright tag, then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Fair use, use a tag such as {{fairusein|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 14:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit

Hi TVOZ, I edited your comment header (In BX Science). I know that's not the nicest thing, but something seemed very uncool/unfair about you using the name of a discussee in a heading. I don't want an edit war, but you are coming across as the self-ordained "keeper of". I realize you are just trying to maintain order - I've done it myself - but I also want to mention how it looks from my side. 65.57.106.28 02:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I responded to this on User talk:65.57.106.28. It's not "not the nicest thing" - editing someone else's comment on a Talk page is out of line. Tvoz 06:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nomination for candidacy

Hi Tvoz,

The Science article is probably not ready, not yet developed to the level, to be nominated for featured article candidate. See Bronx Sience discussion.Bxsstudent 19:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

yes, I agree totally - I was not the one who nominated it, and I don't think it's ready to be a featured article either. Tvoz 19:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cat name piping

_ _ Two errors! In two months? You're going exhaust your quota in, um, ... uh, .... How many years does 10,000 months make? [Smile]
_ _ The Cat pipes are a bit obscure, as wiki markup goes, and bios are where it most often pinches. If you run out of interesting places to screw things up [wink], you might consider patrolling Col... names and/or Joy... ones for uninverted or unpiped names ... now that you're one of the initiates! But on the other hand, don't let suggestions like mine interfere with the instructions of your assignment editor. Keep up the good work!
--Jerzy•t 03:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
That technique (or, in tricky cases that someone else has already dealt with thoroly, checking the hdgs on the bio's talk page) is sometimes necessary, tho common sense is often sufficient, and in fact see Talk:Hu Ge for a pathological case! However, IMO the single most important factor (should have mentioned earlier; i think you're the first to whom i've offered the thot that has led us to this discussion) is described in something i wrote; finding it yourself may amuse and edify you, but feel free to say "cut the bullshit", and i will take a very short break to provide you the lk (which i should save somewhere anyway, for use until i can rewrite the contrib as part of the non-talk pg i was commenting about).

Click to my user page (but open a new window, so you have the rest of the directions in front of you.
Click on "User contributions" from the built-in "toolbox" on that page.

(If you're using the WP Pop-up Tools, as i eventually realized i should, you know how to achieve the effect of those two steps without displaying my user page.)
In the "Namespace:" selector, choose "Wikipedia talk", and click "Go".
Use your browser's Find function to locate my last (i'm almost certain) contribution to any page in that namespace that has "Categ" in its title.
Altho that now removed contrib also exists in an Archive of that page (where it is addressable by section via wiki-lk that i'll place here if you ask), at the moment the quickest way to find it is to
1. note the date of my contrib,
2. click on "history" for the page i edited,
3. find the entry for my edit by time-stamp sequence, and
4. click on that time-stamp to see the page exactly as i left it.
Click on the first entry of the ToC on that old version (to get just past the end of the probably long ToC).
Scroll up slightly to see the end of the ToC.
Click on the last entry, which should be the hdg of my contrib.
Sit in Full Lotus position for five minutes to achieve a state of alert calm.
Dig into some experimental observations i recorded, which will save you some confusion re various editors' treatments and mistreatments of CJK names, and maybe be more specifically helpful.

As i say, don't hesitate to ask for the shortcut (which, on reflection, probably would have been quicker to find and pass you than to write these instructions [Shrug]).
--Jerzy•t 17:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, here: Wikipedia talk:Categorization#Alphabetization of articles within a Category. (Actually, i wasted time trying to find the Archive page in question; maybe i was thinking of something else, or maybe it got removed from the Archive in order to revive it on the talk page: it got a comment i had not seen, which also means it's probably premature (rather than overdue) for going onto Wikipedia:Categorization.) I'm going to comment further in that section (probably irrelevantly to the purposes i raised it with you for), but (hopefully) i'll restrain myself for the next 36 hours.
--Jerzy•t 18:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Responses to two of yours:

Yeah, i was wrong about "my last contrib".
Be scared. Be very scared.

--Jerzy•t 18:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Answer to your question.

Not easily. You can request a checkuser, but you have to have a pretty good justification for doing so. Sorry I'm not more helpful! -- Merope 20:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Support for Bronx Science GA collaboration

The Bronx Science article had been nominated for Good Article Collaboration of the Week by another editor. This should a significant step toward its collaborative development as asserted by Ross. Please add your suppport at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_Article_Collaboration_of_the_week.Bxsstudent 00:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bronx Science

Hi, thank you for notifying me. The article was delisted from WP:GA page. However, what is strange for me is User:Qazws11 nominated the article for the collaboration of the week after (s)he passed the article for GA. The GA COTW is used to drive an article to get a GA status. So it's useless if an article is nominated for GA COTW after it gets GA status. Furthermore, since I re-listed the article at WP:GAC, I raised question at WP:GACo#Bronx_High_School_of_Science. Do you want to nominate at WP:GAC or as GA COTW? Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 09:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, I was wrong. Another GA reviewer has explained in the GA COTW page. Let's see if the article passes GA, then the nomination can continue. Sorry. — Indon (reply) — 18:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, ok - the reason I raised it is I saw no point in pursuing GACo of the week if it was going to be shot down because the GA status was removed. So I think where we stand now is that the article is nominated for Good Article status, awaiting reviews, and we'll take it from there. ThanksTvoz 18:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ISBN formats

I'm not sure about this - I've seen them on Wikipedia with and without the hyphens. John Lennon is the one you changed tonight. Tvoz 05:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, this is the ISBN standard way of displaying them. Rich Farmbrough 07:22 23 November 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Ochs again

Answered at Talk:Phil Ochs. - Jmabel | Talk 00:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

"…grew up on the same music you did…": I grew up on such a variety of music! My father was the one into folk—I'm a second-generation red diaper baby, he had the Almanac Singers & Paul Robeson 78s from his teen years, for example, which I heard as a child—but he was also into outside jazz (one of the few people of Coltrane's own generation who thought Trane got better and better as he got more avant garde) and was one of the older Beatles' fans (he traveled a lot, and brought Beatles & Stones records back from the UK when they were still a bit of a novelty). He and my mom both liked Broadway show tunes, and she liked mainstream jazz-influenced pop (Sinatra, Andrews Sisters) but also listened to WBAI and might have been one of the few people who thought early synthesizer music ("of the computers, by the computers, and for the computers") was listenable. And starting in about 1964 I discovered WMCA, which was mostly Top 40 at the time, but also went way deeper into garage rock than most stations of the time: when Lenny Kaye brought out Nuggets, I already knew half of what was on it. And then I went to college and wanted to work at the radio station, and the only opening was the classical show. - Jmabel | Talk 00:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

"…So come all you good travelers / And fellow travelers, too…"

So, I take that we are not only the same age and similar backgrounds but also grew up near one another & listened to the same radio stations? I don't remember B. Mitchell Reed (before my time?), but I was certainly listening to WMCA before Alex Bennett got there (and well into his tenure, and even when they first went talk radio). Actually, I probably remember their one talk show from the mid-60s—Barry Gray—better than any of the DJs. Gray had an amazing selection of guests, everyone from the editors of Screw to Herman Badillo. Bennett was certainly the best WMCA DJ I remember but I'm thinking before his time, "Home of the Good Guys", playing the Count Five next to Staff Sgt. Barry Sadler and Johnny Cash next to the Stones, where a "Golden Oldie" often meant six months ago. Top 25 radio—not even Top 40. Other DJs I remember were Harry Harrison and Gary Stevens. Does that date it pretty precisely? - Jmabel | Talk 07:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Alex Bennett: Anyone who played Terry Riley's "Rainbow in Curved Air" on a rock station is alright by me, poser politics notwithstanding. - Jmabel | Talk 20:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Century: Several have the year only in the title. Two leap to mind: the Bee Gees "New York Mining Disaster, 1941" and "Aladdin Sane (1913-1938-197?)", which I used for 1938. And there are some instrumentals. - Jmabel | Talk 20:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cat Stephens

The Cat Stephens quote consists of him just talking while he's thinking about what to say, annd he finally finds it and says it: Christians have all this stuff in their religious books too. By including the whole quote, it make it less likely that people actually read what he finally got around to saying. I think the rest of the section makes it clear that his opinion is mixed and flexible (yes to killing Rushdie, no to vigilantism, maybe to non-leathal vigilantism, etc). This quote clearly does not contain a retraction, but it does ask christians to think about his position in their own terms. So that what I thought was the important part. I'm not sure why I even left those first two sentences there the first time. JeffBurdges 04:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'll just be happy with the fact that the sentence I are about is the last line in the quote. JeffBurdges 04:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gibb brothers

Thank you - the "he was 53 years old" had to go, and I feel honoured. Of all the edits I've seen recently, it is one of my favourites. On the bright side it didn't say "unfortunately he was only 53 years old". I've never seen the "unfortunately" and the "only" used in one sentence and my head will surely explode if ever I do. I thought I'd take a peek at the Andy Gibb article, and sure enough, my worst fears were confirmed, so I decided to match your edit with this one. Very satisfying! :-) Rossrs 07:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Blame me, that's fine. I've been told by a few editors that we should remember not everyone is good at math, to which I asked, "does that mean we should be intentionally aiming Wikipedia at people who are not good at math?", and the answer I got was "yes, we should." I was a little surprised. Then I said "a lot of people can't read but we keep writing articles", and nobody replied to that one. I suspect that by then only the people who can't read were still hanging around, probably hoping that I would upload a picture, and the people who aren't good at math had gone, which was unlucky because apparently they can read, and they could have commented. It would have been nice. I get the impression that you can read, plus you're good at math. That's an unusual combination. Let's see how quickly you get reverted. I commend your fortitude, even if you are planning on offering me up to the angry mob! Cheers! Rossrs 11:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, however a day is made is not important. I'm pleased you like it. :-) Cheers Rossrs 07:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Amish vandal

I decided not to block that IP. This is a difficult case, but I decided it was pointless to block an IP several hours after it last vandalizes. I am sure that it will be blocked for an even longer period if it vandalizes again. Academic Challenger 04:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

For good humour and excellence in editing, I present this barnstar to the multitalented and admirably coherent Tvoz. Rossrs 06:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Hi Tvoz, well I don't agree entirely with all of Wikipedia's uberrestrictive policies either, despite my recent spats with some other editors, but I think that the way to change a policy is to discuss it, not simply disregard it - I understand our policy errs on the side of caution rather than applying fair use doctrine to the letter. Anyhow I think the big question with promo photos is this - can the image be replaced with a free alternative that would provide the same information? Often the answer is yes, especially with a living celebrity because it is theoretically possible to get a free image (not necessarily easy, but possible). The difference with a dead celebrity is that the number of photos in existence is finite and if a free image doesn't exist already it's too late to create it. Lately a school of thought has emerged here that contends images of dead celebrities are more allowable and less likely to be challenged than images of living celebrities. I think the image you've found is therefore as acceptable as many other images that are regarded as acceptable. I would upload it, ensure you link to source, but most importantly provide a fair use rationale. Then .... double check that a "replaceable tag" has not automatically been applied to the image. Something has been changed recently in the upload process that automatically adds the tag, but I don't know under what circumstances it's added. I think if you choose a licence it doesn't like, it automatically tags it. If the tag is added, you should remove it because it wouldn't apply. I've been adding generic fair use rationales to previously existing images of dead celebrities. A couple of examples are Image:Fredginger.jpg (Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers - I got a bit specific with this image because I wanted it to cover use in both articles), and Image:Gloria3.jpg (Gloria Swanson - this is more generic and I've applied this to numerous similar images of various people.) Let me know if there's anything you need a hand with. As for Commons - I've uploaded some screenshots from public domain films on there. I haven't spent much time there and I'm not as familiar with how it all works - I find it a little scary to tell the truth! Happy uploading. You could really be mischievous and choose the Witch Hazell image instead. It's very .... ummmm.... nice? No? Cheers Rossrs 05:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

PS. I've also seen some discussions that suggest we should extend this idea to include living celebrities if we're looking for an image that represents a person at their period of fame. The example given was Bettie Page an 80+ year old woman who was a popular pinup 50 years ago. The question there is - do we want a picture of 80+ year Bettie (preferably with her clothes on) to show what she looks like, or do we want 25 year old Bettie in a bikini to show what she looked like when she was famous? No decision on that one, but it's interesting isn't it? Rossrs 05:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ryan d.---senior at Bronx Science

I added some clarification in the 'collaborations section' like you asked. Thanks for the words of advice! I'm waiting for the Early Decision word back from a 'large name' school. I am nervous and excited, and most of the stress comes from not knowing where I will be going for the next four years of my life. I rest in the fact that I'm going somewhere, and I will make the best of wherever I am. I will certainly miss Science, though. I've been involved in so many amazing things, and have met so many amazing people------for me, I will never forget the opportunity that Bronx Science gave me. I'm sure you feel the same.

--ryan

PS. i'm still crossing my fingers that the edleville murders "surface". ha!

[edit] User:WeinsteinWarWolf

Regarding your request at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism User:WeinsteinWarWolf was blocked (see: [1]). However blocked users can continue to edit their talkpage, which is what he or she has been doing since. Rockpocket 09:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. He or she has been blocked indefinitely, but will probably return under another account. They usually do. Rockpocket 09:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Warning template - specification

Glad to help - put the usual {{subst:test4}} for example, but after the test4 put a vertical line - | - and the page name without a Wiki link (it does that itself). Giving you, {{subst:test4|John Lennon}} which will include in the warning, ...as you did to John Lennon.... or similar. Kev Liverpool Scouse 15:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes I saw the suggestion on Talk:John Lennon, and see that it's been given protection, which is welcome news - God knows how much reverting would be getting done otherwise! Liverpool Scouse 20:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Yep, I did have a check earlier today and expected to see loads of reverts on the history so I was pleasantly suprised! I think it hasn't really attracted as much media attention this year as last year, with it being the 25th anniversary last year and all. But indeed - a toast John, 26 years on and still as influential as ever. Liverpool Scouse 20:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
  - It's sad that he got killed over there when he loved it so much due to the freedom he had to wander the streets without being harrassed by fans too much. Having said that, Chapman was so obsessed he more than likely would have travelled to any other city had Lennon chosen to live there. New York has done him proud though - The Strawberry Fields park and Imagine memorial are perfect ways to remember him. Liverpool Scouse 20:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: WP:AIV

On closer review, I've decided to block the IP. Thanks for your time. :) Luna Santin 20:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TNG

Thanks. Shooting self not needed. All stuff added to that article was from the Companion and the Gene Roddenberry authorised biography, which I cited. Plan to add an awful lot more stuff in future : the problem is where to start! Morwen - Talk 21:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] warning: Systematic repeated violation of Wiki rules WP: Living

One more violation of Wiki rules and you will be reported as a repeat violator. 23:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The user who added the above threat, User:Rjensen, has been blocked by User:Khoikhoi for 31 hours for WP:3RR. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 10:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm attempting mediation -- Talk:Nelson Rockefeller -- Merope 15:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

This threat is unfounded. Tvoz 19:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Megan Marshak

Hey, Tvoz, you might also be interested to learn that Rjensen has censored the Megan Marshak article as well. Granted, the revious text needed a lot of work, but we've got 31 hours... Regards, ProhibitOnions ^(T) 11:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Be that as it may, the model here is bold, revert, discuss. Take it to Talk, please, and achieve consensus. Your wording, if nothing else, needs work. Guy (Help!) 18:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Since you seem unclear, Nelson Rockefeller. Guy (Help!) 19:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

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