Talk:Tupac Shakur

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To-do list for Tupac Shakur:

 edit - history - watch - refresh
  • Re-submitted as a FAC. See the reviewers' notes on the FAC nomination page to see a list of recommended changes.
  • Clarify Lesane Parish Crooks misconception.
  • Add section on music per Featured music:
    • Pictures: Needs fair use rationales
    • Audio: Three (but see #Audio for a discussion)
    • References: Ongoing, but no cite needed tags, and most everything up to snuff
    • Format/Style: Cleanup (ongoing)
    • Influences/Artists influenced
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Chubdub (talk • contribs • email), Mysekurity (talk • contribs • email), Jaranda (talk • contribs • email), KillerChihuahua (talk • contribs • email), Tutmosis (talk • contribs • email)
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Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived.

Previous discussions:


Despite what others have herd Tupac Shakur has never played guitar.y

Contents

[edit] Released Studio Albums Section

The Makaveli the Don album is in the wrong section. It should be in the posthumously released section because it was released after his death. Although he recorded the material before his death the album was released posthumously. Having this album in the released studio section is misleading.

Fixed License2Kill 03:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The makaveli album still appears in the studio albums section. Either add a footnote that it was released posthumously or place it in the posthumously released section.

The titles of the sections were changed License2Kill 23:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HELP

I'm trying to redirect "Tupac" here because when someone says tupac they mean 2pac Makaveli the Don Killuminati Shakur. But I'm having trouble with the header and keeping the disambiguation page a disambiguation page hahahahahha. HELP PlZ!?!

Looks like it's fixed now License2Kill 03:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Lawsuit against Suge/Death Row/Kenner

The text of this lawsuit is online somewhere, I don't remember where, but it maintains (and the court agreed) that the money alleged by Knight to have been for Tupac's bail (1.4 million), was not paid in full by Knight or Death Row, but by Interscope Records, with a 300 thousand dollar payment and the potential earning power of Shakur as collateral. Knight's assertations that he or Death Row bailed Tupac out of jail in return for the 3 album deal were and are the beginning of the basis of the lawsuit the estate filed.

LoganRage 11:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)LoganRage Oct.12 4:05AM

[edit] Tupac's birth name

I think your idea is ridiculous and dis-repectfull to his mother, yes Tupac was not born with such a cool name but his mother changed it and you are no-one to suggest that we revert back, are you his mother ? I think that is the only person with the authority on making a decison on what the world called Tupac was Afeni. I see it as a inherent right of a mother to name her child and no-one has the right to change it, including that person. 07-22-2006 Mizpac

I agree completely—it's up to his mother to say what the right answer is. What do you propose? Do you think an e-mail to Afeni or 2Pac Legacy would be useful? -Mysekurity 03:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

"It has been rumored that Shakur's birth name was Lesane Parish Crooks, but this has been proven false."

Should that statement be removed? The source is "Holler If You Hear Me" but in that book I do not remember them mentioning "Lesane Parish Crooks". Has this been proven false or has it just not been proven true?

Rephrase, not remove. So far as I know there are no reliable sources supporting this but it has not been proven false. KillerChihuahua?!? 10:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I found some sources. answers.com seems to be the best one though. I think it's true
http://www.answers.com/topic/tupac-shakur
http://www.secondhandsongs.com/artist/11224.html
http://www.nndb.com/people/548/000024476/
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/entertainers/music/tupac-shakur/
http://www.studentcentral.co.uk/unsolved_murder_lesane_parish_crooks_more_widely_4318/
http://www.popstarsplus.com/music_tupac.htm
Jowan2005

Althought that would have been great a few months ago, it has already been confirmed and included License2Kill 21:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

TUPAC NEVER PLAYED GUITAR

It has not been included. I added it and it was taken out by Mysekurity. I did a quick few-minute google search and quickly I am able to find 7 sites all saying that Lesane Parish Crooks was his true birth name. and Mysekurity says "very few websitesm, and even fewer notable sources, list Lesane or Parish as his name" OK well I proved that wrong. If I can find 7 sources before going onto page two of google then it's not "very few website" I'm sure I could probably find hundreds. The only thing I made a mistake one was how to cite the source, that does not mean it should be removed, that means someone should fix it. --Jowan2005

I changed it back and sourced it correctly. I think it should just say "Name" instead of "Birth name" because that could confuse some people into thinking "Tupac Shakur" was only his stage name. His real name was Parish Lesane Crooks and that is confirmed in Tupac Shakur Legacy an official book a much better source then some fansite that is probably making a mistake that they found on some other site License2Kill 03:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Either it read Parish, Lesane Crooks, signifying Parish being his middle name, or the book was mistaken. Yes, books make mistakes to, even official ones. I read an interview with his mother saying that it is Lesane Parish Crooks.

Anyone know how you could change the "Birth name" to "Given name"?

One would have to change the template, which would affect every article the template is used on. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Would it be possible for one to create a new template? License2Kill 05:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It would be deleted as duplicate effort, a type of fork. KillerChihuahua?!? 14:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say, but seven sites is not a substantial number to back up a fact like this. I've got nothing against the name, it's just I would like a little proof. Is anyone who has Tupac Shakur Legacy willing to look this up? and perhaps cite the book properly (page number, etc.) with {{cite book}}? The reason I'm skeptical of those unnoficial sources is that his official website mentions nothing of the names Lesane, Parish, or Crooks (click 2Pac in the main window). Anyone else have any thoughts to add? -Mysekurity 03:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Not entirely sure on the best method to resolve this, but as it stands something is listed as fact, but the page doesnt provide anything to convince me that it's the case, in fact im decidedly sceptical. The referenced source is a book without an ISBN or page number, and even if this is stated in the book referenced, are biographies by fans sufficient sources to reference, if they dont cite a source themselves? Dont want to edit, because im not too sure what's better, but "Out of fear of someone hurting her son Afeni Shakur put the name Parish Lesane Crooks on the birth certificate, but changed his name one year later" need to change. Provider uk 17:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not a fan made biography, it's an official biography License2Kill 19:05, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Please cite it correctly, then. And if possible, show where in the text it says this. Until it has been corroberated by an outside source (maybe try e-mailing Afeni?), the dubious tag will stay up. -Mysekurity 01:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
That's a little dubious. I think emailing Afeni would constitute Original Research... It seems like Wikipedia is limited to waiting for Afeni to say something specifically on the subject in a national publication or something... which seems a little unlikely, but hey...SqlPac 00:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the citation. It's on page 9. License2Kill 02:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The Las Vegas Police Department report of the shooting lists Lesane Parish Crooks as one of Tupac's aliases. I propose adding that "Lesane Parish Crooks" is a confirmed alias and citing the LVPD police report. Whether or not it was his "birth name", however, would still be up in the air until someone finds something substantial to back up that claim.

It's not an alias, I yet to hear a single person refer to him as Lesane Parish Crooks besides a few sites that are probably basing the statement on a rumor. Tupac's family is the better source on the subject of his name License2Kill 19:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

As Winston Churchill once said, "Don't let the 'better' get in the way of the 'good'." The 'best' source on the subject would be Tupac himself, but obviously that's not going to happen. How likely is it that his family will come out and say something on this issue to a "verifiable" source out of the blue? Seems highly unlikely. So if you don't consider official public-record police reports to be "verifiable" sources (in which case plenty of other content from this page and Wikipedia in general needs to be removed immediately), then maybe you could find out where the LVPD got their information from and cite that as a "verifiable" source. It's hard to imagine some beat cop just pulled that "alternate name" (since you don't like the word "alias") out of his rear end to put on an official incident report.

His family is obviously the better source License2Kill 20:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia obviously doesn't limit its content to the "better source". Last I read, it had to be a "verifiable source". And by Wikipedia's own policies, a "verifiable source" doesn't have to be abandoned because there is a theoretical "better source". Assuming you did take the initiative and were able to contact Tupac's family, and they did tell you personally one way or the other, how would I and thousands of other Wikipedia readers "verify" that information with the source? Are you planning to publish their phone number as well so curious readers can verify it?
BTW, speaking of the "BETTER SOURCE", Tupac's *BIRTH CERTIFICATE* says his birth-name is "Tupac Amaru Shakur". If the "BETTER SOURCE" is your criteria, I'd say a Birth Certificate trumps a posthumous biography any day of the week.

Who ever said I contacted Tupac's family? Did you even look at the citation? It is from an official biography License2Kill 06:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Who ever said you contacted Tupac's family?! I proposed a theoretical situation in which you might "take the initiative" to contact them. After all, you're the one proposing that they are the better source. Now you propose what? That readers should use their psychic powers to read Tupac's family's minds? Did you look at the second paragraph above? To hell with your posthumous biography; his birth certificate is a much "BETTER SOURCE". Deal with it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.116.249.76 (talk • contribs) 00:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

69.116:

  1. contacting Tupac's family is original research and against Wikipedia policy.
  2. Where is your source which has a birth certificate reproduced, or the name on the birth certificate given?
  3. Please read WP:CIVIL and abide by it. I will not hesitate to block for incivility. KillerChihuahua?!? 00:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  4. And sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) KillerChihuahua?!? 00:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I never contacted Tupac's family and when someone changes their name a new birth certificate is issued License2Kill 00:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Yes, contacting his family is original research; therefore unless his family is published in a verifiable source stating that he was born "Lesane Parish Crooks", then his family is not a usable source per Wikipedia policy original research.
2. The book Tupac Resurrection, ISBN 0743474341, page 9, on the left side of the page right next to the picture of Tupac as a child. It clearly states his birth name.
3. What's uncivil about this conversation? I'm just trying to get more information about this Wikipedia policy stating that information must be sourced from the "better source", and what constitutes the "better source". It appears that official government documents are not as good a source as a posthumous biography written by some guy trying to make a few bucks...
4. ~~~~
So your source states that Lesane Parish Crook's original birth certificate was destroyed and replaced in its entirety with the current one, with no reference to the original being maintained? I'm surprised; usually government agencies aren't that thorough. ~~~~

Look at the source! I never said I contacted anybody, you said that! That fact comes from the book, Tupac Shakur Legacy which is an official book. I never said his birth certificate was destroyed, I am saying the one in the book was a birth certificate from after his name was changed. License2Kill 03:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I never said you "contacted anybody". Please re-read for further guidance. I'm just wondering what your plan is exactly to use the "family" as a source, as you keep stating that they are the "better source"? Please explain. I see that the information about his name being "P.L. Crooks" has been added, and that part of it was sourced (no source on "He was named this because Afeni was fearful...") As long as you can source it from the "official book" that Afeni was fearful, and that she changed his name "a year later", it's good enough for Wikipedia. BTW, is "official book" a Wikipedia rating for a book that meets certain criteria, per some official Wikipedia policy?~~~~

[edit] Tupac's birth name, part II

Section break, this is getting ridiculous. Please sign your name with four tildes, without the nowiki tags, ok? Otherwise we just see four tildes. See WP:SIGN, thanks. Ok, what is the issue on the name? Is there a source for the LPS name at all, what is it, and what precisely does it say? Thanks much. KillerChihuahua?!? 01:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow dude, been a while. I see you all have added a lot of good info to the Pac article. Very nice work. What's up with this old LPS argument again? I thought that was settled like six months ago? SqlPac 00:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no argument over his birth name. It has been confirmed in the latest book released by the estate of Tupac Shakur, Tupac Shakur Legacy License2Kill 03:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spreading Tupac's ashes in South Africa (again)

This discussion is continued from the archive because apparently we haven't finished it.

I deleted, for a third time, the unverified and unsourced statement that "Family and friends plan to spread the remaining ashes during a ceremony in Soweto, South Africa, where Nelson Mandela will be attending." There is absolutely no evidence to support the statement that Nelson Mandela will be attending the ceremony. User License2Kill has added the statement about Mandela back three times now and has not provided a reliable source for the statement. The user has given this as a source: http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=6135. Yet a reading of the source reveals that there is nothing to support this statement. The source states "During the eight-day trip, Afeni Shakur was scheduled to meet with leaders like Nelson Mandela, Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, Miriam Makeba and others." That says nothing about Mandela being at the spreading of Tupac's ashes in 2007. I have surveyed the South African media and have found no evidence to support the assertion. I suggest that the statement read: "Family and friends plan to spread the remaining ashes in Soweto, South Africa, on June 16, 2007 which is Shakur's 36th birthday" which is verifiable with the source provided. Can others please add their thoughts on this here so that we can resolve this issue. Thank you. Lionchow 20:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Keep it deleted. L2K, find a source and post it here on TALK for discussion, or drop it. Edit warring over this is not helping the article. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/arts/articulate/200609/s1739745.htm License2Kill 23:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a post from a public user - anything under the "articulate" header is like a blog. Not a RS. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Hey, what about Pretoria News? Anyone know anything about this source? [1] KillerChihuahua?!? 23:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

"during a ceremony attended by the country's former president, Nelson Mandela." http://www.smh.com.au/news/music/his-life-after-death/2006/09/12/1157826940955.html License2Kill 23:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok we now have the Sydney Morning Herald and Pretoria News. IMHO we add it, and add both references. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

If you read the Sydney Morning Herald closely it says "That new reputation will be reinforced today when his remaining ashes are scattered at a sacred site in Soweto, during a ceremony attended by the country's former president, Nelson Mandela." The 'today' that it refers to is the date of the article, Sept 13, 2006. As we now know, this did not happen. There is no article that says anything about Mandela being there in 2007. We should not assume that he will be there in 2007 from this one article, this is an encyclopedia, and we should have pretty strict standards. If you read the Pretoria News article, it says nothing about Mandela. Also, why is it that only one Australian newspaper has this mention of Mandela being present, and not a single South African newspaper does, or any newspaper anywhere else for that matter? I live in South Africa and have been following this in the media, and there has been no mention of the Mandela being at the event. Below are 8 different articles from South African newspapers, none of which mention Mandela. When doing research and writing a summary of that research, one should not get an idea in one's head of what should or shouldn't be included and then seek out sources to confirm one's own belief, but should rather survey a wide variety of sources and summarize the overall findings. Again, I suggest that the statement read: "Family and friends plan to spread the remaining ashes in Soweto, South Africa, on June 16, 2007 which is Shakur's 36th birthday" which is verifiable by multiple sources. Lionchow 07:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


http://www.capetimes.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3428027 http://capeargus.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=49&fArticleId=3427833 http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3427783 http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=283305&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/ http://www.pretorianews.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3427610 http://www.dispatch.co.za/2006/09/07/SouthAfrica/atupac.html http://www.tonight.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3354561&fSectionId=431&fSetId=251 http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?from=rss_South%20Africa&set_id=1&click_id=&art_id=vn20060907093729790C168915

Concur, the statement in the article must reflect what the sources say. KillerChihuahua?!? 09:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I edited the Mandela thing out until we can source it, also changing the postponed date from 1996 to 2006. --Guinnog 09:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Nicely done, also appreciate the date fixes. KillerChihuahua?!? 09:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Makaveli clothes

I'm surprised there isn't at least a mention of the Makaveli line of clothes Afeni released. I'll have to do some further investigation. As a side note; I have a Makaveli hoodie that's black with a gray carpeted Makaveli M on the front, covered in red, white, and blue paint. The first day I wore that to school, a friend commented that it looked like someone had thrown up the flag on me. That was the last day I wore that to school. --Mysekurity 03:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Forget what your friend says, Makaveli Branded clothing is top stuff.--Easy duz it 10:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a great idea. There should definitely be a section for Makaveli Branded. I wear a lot of MB clothing. I'm interested in helping develop this article, so I'll do some studying and we can make this section. Jacon Himself 12:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2Pac and Biggie share same lyrics

"2 of Americas Most Wanted" by 2Pac has a lyric "if you got it better flaunt it" this is interesting because Notorious B.I.G used the same set of lyrics in his Hit song "Hypnotize." I find this interesting because these Rap/HipHop succeses did not llke each other, but by "chance" they used this same idea around the same time. Any thoughts?

It's a simple phrase License2Kill 13:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

^^ He means common. It's a common phrase. I wouldn't look to deeply into it myself. --King Bee 14:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Not that it really matter, but they were indeed friends at one time. Lots of rappers use lines other rappers have used. That phrase is common in quite a few raps by quite a few rappers. That is basically the main idea behind rapping. You are always trying to out do the rapper before you. Rap is all about flauting what you have, or in most cases what you want people to believe you have. You might be surprised to find out that a lot of rappers don't actually own the cars and other things they show in their videos.The Real Stucco 15:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stretch

There should be a section on Tupac's relationship with Stretch (from the Live Squad).

He was a great friend before and during the Thug Life-time. He was also friends with The Notorious B.I.G.

Stretch was at the sceene the first time Tupac got shot and robbed. 2pac said that Anthony Stretch Walker was involved in planning this backstab-move, while Biggie and Puffy defended their friend.

Pac said in the song Against All Odds: "And that nigga that was down for me, restin dead Switch sides, guess his new friends wanted him dead"

I've read this in a lot of places, that Stretch was brutally killed by multiple Shotgun-shots exactly, on the day, one year after the 2pac-robery.

There is no reason for the section, you can't make a section for everyone of his friends License2Kill 22:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

And definitely couldn't make a section for every one of his enemies!

Come on, it wasn't just any friend. He was accused by Tupac himself to be involved in his first shooting. And he was killed exactly one year after the shooting. Also he had a big role in all albums before, and including, the Thug Life-album. Liquid Corpse 17:06 24 September 2006 (CET)

So was Jimmy Henchman and Walter "King Tut" Johnson but we don't have sections on them License2Kill 16:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

That is a correct identification. You should do something about that. It's an online dictionary, if you know anything about it you should put it out there. /LiQ

Keep this artical we need as much information about Tupac's life we can get.--Easy duz it 10:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tupac's 1995 mugshot

In the picture here of pac's 95 mug shot, on his left cheek, theres a noticable streak going down the side of his face. Is this a scar?

I think it's just the photo. License2Kill 04:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

It has to be fake. He never has any scars like that in any other picture seen of him. And make-up couldn't even cover that up. --Ted87 22:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you never seen Resurrection?? He talks about those scars and shows them in an interview with a lady. They are from when he got into a scuffle with the off-duty atlanta cops, and they slammed him on the ground.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.97.229.193 (talk • contribs).

No it's not. That happened 4 years before the photo as taken License2Kill 20:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair Use on Album Covers

We can use them solely to illustrate the album in question. That is, it's okay to display them here, on the Tupac Shakur discography page, and on the album's page itself. It is not fair use to display them on your user page, say. As such, I will remove them from the "to do" list. --King Bee 15:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Well the album covers for "All Eyez on Me" and "2Pacalypse Now" are being used to illustrate the the album(s) in question, because they are both used in the sections were it talks about the respective albums. --Ted87 06:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religious beliefs?

I wonder why this article doesn't mention his religious beliefs? He often mentioned Jesus in his lyrics, and he even had Tattoo of a huge cross on his back. Doesn't that count for anything? EliasAlucard|Talk 17:38, 30 Sept, 2006 (UTC)

I think the reason his religous beliefs aren't included n the artice is because it isn't that relevent to the article. Plus there is some confusion by some people has to what his religon/religoius beliefs were (which may actually be good reason to include it in the article). In his songs and other places he talks about God all the time, but in one or two he down plays religon all together. --Ted87 01:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
He did a song called "Hail Mary", does that make him Catholic? If you want to add it, I'd recommend researching his religious beliefs (you might have to dig a little deeper than one tattoo) and writing it up.

Not really worth mentioning in the article, but he believed in God but not the church or a religion License2Kill 19:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual assault trial

Is there any source (other than an interested one) for this:

"There is much controversy to the ruling of the case, the judge said that he did not think Tupac was guilty but sentenced him because of all of Shakur's recent run-ins with the law."

Instead, in the February 8, 1995 newspapers:

The New York Times reported that:

Justice Daniel P. Fitzgerald said, "This was an act of brutal violence against a helpless woman." He said that Mr. Shakur had been the "instigator" of an "arrogant abuse of the victim" which culminated an escalating display of arrogance as he pursued his career.

The Washington Post reported that:

A New York judge characterized the crime as "an act of violence against a helpless woman," Reuter reported, and added that the rapper "must bear full responsibility for the assault.

The LA Times reported that:

Fitzgerald turned down requests to allow the two men to remain free on bail pending appeals. In pronouncing sentence, he said Shakur's "arrogant abuse of his victim follows a pattern of escalating violence as his career progressed."

I didn't see anything suggesting that the judge did not think Tupac was guilty; I am going to (try to) change the article. If there is a news or other original source for the current version, we can revise. Cka3n

Although the prior version referred to a book, it did not have a page cite and it somewhat implausible (a trial judge sentenced a defendant in a high profile case while publicly admitting he did not think the defendant was guilty?).

I will add all three full newspaper citations to the article. Anyone who has a contradicting source, please feel free to provide a citation and a quote (and if the source's source is not apparent, please provide any citations given by the source itself) and then we can resolve any actual conflicts. Cka3n 23:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

My sources say "arrogant abuse of his victim follows a pattern of escalating violence as his career progressed." It's from a documentary, not a book.License2Kill 00:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That quote you have just provided does not say what you claim the judge said in the article. That quote says just what I said the NY Times reported. The judge thought that Tupac was guilty. The documentary you refer to is available on youtube, etc. I just watched the portion linked on the prior discussion of this section here. It did not say anything remotely like "The judge thought Tupac was not guilty." Indeed, Tupac's attorney spoke at length about the possibility of a government informant, but never suggested any such wild error on the part of the judge. Please, then, provide the part and the time of the documentary so that this can be verified.Cka3n 00:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That video is for another thing I mentioned in the thing. That's just a video clip on YouTube, not the full thing. I don't know what section of the documentary it is, but just watch the DVD and it's on there License2Kill 00:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to buy and watch a whole DVD just on the off chance that the judge said something I know he didn't say. This is true especially where the DVD was produced by his mother and it (allegedly) directly contradicts three major newspaper accounts written at the time.

I am not going to revert the article back to the newspaper version right now, and I hope that someone other than you and I can offer an opinion. However, if you have the time and/or the inclination, it would be great to know what was actually said on the DVD and who said it (e.g., was it a video clip of the judge himself, was it an eyewitness report, etc.?). Also, the business about forensic evidence is probably not needed - if the article says he disputed the claims, that is probably enough. This is an article about him, not about the sufficiency of the evidence standard for criminal charges (especially since the lack of forensic evidence marks many, many such cases everywhere except on CSI).Cka3n 00:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't matter anyway, documentaries can't be used as sources on Wikipedia License2Kill 01:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Murder: Government conspiracy

One conspiracy about the murder of Tupac is that the Government played a large role into the assassination of Tupac Skakur. His Mom, Dad and Aunt were all Black Panthers and were being hunted down by the CIA. His Aunt currently lives in exile in Cuda due to "apparently" killing a cop(s). Tupac was in the mist of it all, an emerging artist that spoke the truth. He was investigating the Freemasons and the Illuminati in his younger years and even colaberated with The Notorious B.I.G. to open the worlds eyes about The New World Order. The CIA began investigating Tupac Shakur and planned for his murder. Tupac stated in many of his songs that he was under surveillance by the government

The CIA had a program called COINTELPRO which was apparently only active from 1956-1971 but are said to be still active today. They targeted radical organisations such as the Black Panthers, KKK and American Nazi Party.

The CIA divised a plan to turn The Notorious B.I.G. and Tupac Shakur against each other. Their plan succeeded and was known as sparked the "The East West Beef". Various members of Tupac's ontourrahj said they could identify the killers but again were murdered a few days later.

Tupac was murdered on Septemember 7th 2006 returning from the MGM Grand in Las Vegas by a unknown assailant who may have been hired by the government. The car which housed the murderers amazingly vanished in the a city that was surrounded by a desert.

The Las Vegas police did quite a shoddy job in finding Tupac's assailant but managed to blame a crip who goes by the name of "Baby Lane", he later died in a unrelated shooting. Instead of closing off the crime scene they followed the black BMW which contained Deathrow CEO and Tupac that was heading for the hospital. Some accounts state that Tupac was air lifted to hospital by helicopter.

This story can be related to such figures as Martin Luthur King Jr., President JFK and Malcom X which some claim may have been murdered by the Government.

--Easy duz it 10:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but before inserting this into the article, could we please get a look at those reliable sources, in keeping with WP:V? It's important that everybody be able to see these sources for their own research. Thanks in advance. Luna Santin 19:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
It definately should be added, since a lot of people believe it License2Kill 01:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
A lot of people believe in a lot of shit, L2K, you know that. Its no reason to clutter up this article with unfounded rumours and urban legends. KillerChihuahua?!? 03:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
A lot of people believe the above theory so why not include it. You are obviously so narrow minded that you can't believe anything other than what you see in the papers and on tv.

[edit] Songs/albums/lyrics relating to conspiracy

  • "Killuminati" - before Tupacs death he wrote this song where he raps about the Illuminati
  • Tupac made an album known as "The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory" which means "I'm The Don, I Will Kill The Illuminati" or something similar. "The 7 Day Theory" relates to how long it took to make the album.

Amazon.com: The Don Killuminati

--Easy duz it 10:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC) Watch the documentary by Nick Broomfield. He proposes a very compelling argument that Suge Knight orchestrated the killings of both Biggie and Tupac, which was ultimately carried out by LAPD officers. However farfetched this may seem, check out the documentary to see for yourself.

[edit] Sources:

--Easy duz it 10:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Alleyezone.com, aka 2Pac online, is a poorly sourced fan site. They also have an article titled "Tupac is alive"[2] so please don't suggest using that site as a source. They do not meet Wikipedia criteria for reliable sources. KillerChihuahua?!? 03:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh and i suppose you know exactly what sites fall into Wikipeida's "reliable sources" do you. You never seem to make an artical of your own but choose to criticise others for making a contribution. Your a complete waste of space, get off Wiki. --Easy duz it 11:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Change the name of "2pac tba"

to "pac's life" which is tha name of the new album


That is not confirmed License2Kill 04:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dead or Alive?

Is Tupac Shakur dead or alive? It says that Tupac Shakur died in Friday the 13th September 2006. But they say that he is still alive though because there are songs by Tupac Shakur that came out after he died. Like Elton John's song Ghetto Gospel featuring 2pac- SCB '92 15:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

He's dead. Due to the miracles of modern recording, an artist's work can be released after death, or incorporated into new works (such as Natalie Cole's duet with her long deceased father, Unforgettable.) There are a number of people who persist in the rumour that he is alive. There is no rational reason to believe such a claim. KillerChihuahua?!? 11:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
You may want to have a section about theories that he may be alive, which aren't all completely far-fetched. There is indeed some rationale behind such claims. For example, he was conveniently cremated before the public actually saw him dead. There is other evidence to support this. I dun know. Just my idea.Jigsaw Jimmy 15:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
We have discussed this and consensus is that the far-fetched conspiracy theorists who subscribe to these "theories" are in an extremely small minority, and there is no credible evidence to support them. Unless you have a compelling new reason to reconsider, then we will keep the status quo and not give any more webspace to these notions. KillerChihuahua?!? 18:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Calm down dude. I was just making a suggestion. Chill, aight? Jigsaw Jimmy 17:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry... I've reverted Tupac is alive! type crap, including poorly written bits about the "theories" from this page about a million times. I am a little touchy. Apologies. KillerChihuahua?!? 00:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
haha i gotcha. no problem. i understandJigsaw Jimmy 01:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a second article? We do have one for Paul is dead. Avalon Bound 23:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this deserves inclusion, if not the theories themselves, then at least about the hype surrounding these theories... may not need an entire article though. Sfacets 23:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
At the end of the day you don't know if he's dead or alive and if we can expand this section it would could become very conclusive. Unlike KillerChihuahua some of us don't believe everything that we read in the newspapers or see on the tv.--Easy duz it 11:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
You don't know what I believe. It does not matter what I believe. It does not matter what you believe. All that matters for the purpose of this article is what is verifiable from reliable (not blogs, fansites, or cruftsites) sources. Anyone's personal beliefs here would constitute original research, which is against Wikipedia policy. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that it DOES MATTER WHAT PEOPLE THINK! If a lot of people believe that this artical should be included it will be, it has f all to do with you and your sh*i*e remarks. It's good that someone took the time to make an artical to contribute to Wikipedia. I don't think you have actually ever put anything positive into this artical. Why are you here? --Easy duz it 16:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
It matters, of course - but not to the content of this article. Wikipedia requires a source. That is a policy, and it is not negotiable. If I was unclear, I apologise - but without a source, it is original research and it cannot be included.
As it happens, I did a major overhaul of the article about a year ago. I went to the library and checked out books for sources. I worked with other editors to find sources for questionable content. And I blocked about 100 people who vandalized this article. I also, as you can see, patiently and repeatedly explain Wikipedia policy on this talk page. I trust this answers the "what do I do here" question. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


There is a whole page on the Seven Day Theory License2Kill 00:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I beleave that tupac died but that his family and friends paid off the investigators to hustle the cremation to keep his killers from getting the satisfaction of seeing him dead.

Does it really matter? As far as the gov't is concerned, Tupac was capped so they can no longer collect taxes from him.

[edit] RIAA

Did you know that All Eyez on Me sold 7 million copies (Found this info in Source)? Meaning it would be 14 times Platinum (Diamond) if the RIAA updated it. That means that it would be the best selling rap album ever if the RIAA updated the sales. Is there a way this can be mentioned? I can get the exact page for the sourcing. License2Kill 03:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Is platinum not 1 million records? There is a wiki article on this somewhere. Which makes 2pac 7x platinum on All Eyez on Me. I think eminem is the best selling rap artist ever with over 10 million sold of The Marshall Mathers LP - Neilz - 19th October 2006
Platinum does equal 1 miliion unless you release a double disc album. The RIAA counts that has 2 albums, so techincally it would be 500,000. As for selling 7 million copies, we need to tred carfully on this. If we can find a reliable source (and possibily a back up source) then it should definalty be put in. At the same time you should mention that technically it is neither diamond nor 14 times platinum since the RIAA has to certify it. --Ted87 19:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
License2Kill, tupac has over 9million sold. All Eyez On Me is at least 18x Platnum and defintely a Diamond album. but that has nothing to do with any of us, the only way that can change is if Deathrow files and pay 500 dollars or something for another an update validation. User:Rise2pac 01:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it is not about what Death Row is suppose to do. The RIAA has not certified it Diamond so it is still 9x Platinum. License2Kill 02:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory did NOT sell 28 million.

The citation is completely unreliable. It estimates around that, and like I said, unreliable. If it was RIAA certified 7x platinum and sold in total 4x that worldwide, that would be a record. This would also make this one of the best selling albums of all time, which has never been indicated by any record company, nor by any certification. I am removing worldwide sales until proper citation used.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leethal (talk • contribs) 12:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you look it up on RIAA and put in the correct figures? Also, please remember to sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~). KillerChihuahua?!? 12:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The source is from the official court documents from back in 2000. It is a reliable source that was used in court. The RIAA just doesn't update sales after a certain amount of time unless the label pays for it License2Kill 19:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

What court documents? KillerChihuahua?!? 18:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The court documents used in a case against Jacques "Haitian Jack" Agnant License2Kill

Is there a link to this source? --Ted87 19:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.hitemup.com/tupac/lawsuit-agnant.html License2Kill 20:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I have removed the followingsection because it lacked sources

It was believed by many listeners that in the first few seconds of the song "Intro/Bomb First (My Second Reply) on the album The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory, a muffled Shakur can be heard saying but multiple audio tests and confirmation from a member of The Outlawz proved that it was indeed "Shoulda shot me". Many people believed the voice said "Suge shot me" or "Suge shot 'em". This, along with reports of Knight's strong-arm tactics with artists and other illegal business tactics including involvement with the Mob Piru Bloods street gang gave rise to a theory that Knight was complicit in Shakur's murder, as it was reported that Suge Knight owed Tupac up to seventeen million dollars in back royalties, but no evidence has been provided to support this theory.

It should be put back only if and when reliable sources can be found to support the claims made. JDoorjam Talk 20:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a fact. It was confirmed by some of The Outlawz and on MTV's Big Urban Myths. This can also be confirmed by a simple audio test License2Kill 21:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well this is a controvercial audio clip considering its very hard to hear exactly what he says and all the conspiracy theorists claiming it was "Suge". So a source would definetely be nice considering how many people argue about this. - Tutmosis 14:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The source has already been added. License2Kill 19:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1st/3rd Paragraphs

The First and Third Paragraphs at the beginning of the article seem to have a lot of the same stuff in them; When the third paragraph talks about his songs being about growing up in the ghetto, racial equality, etc, it is merely the same information as the first paragraph, restated. Mnpeter 00:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2Face

there is another "2Pac album" comin out. Its a Scarface/Tupac Album called '2Face' it is due late 2006 and is co-produced by Suge Knight and J-Prince (of rap-a-lot). It is on page 122 of October 2006 issue of XXL. "JULY" Marcus 13:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To repair

  • under the label,with his fifth album

[edit] mergefrom

Well I can't put up the tag myself because of the protection but I would like to suggest merging Tupac Shakur timeline into this main article. Maybe some admin can put the tag in there for me. Thanks, Pascal.Tesson 17:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eazy-e featured?

In the song by Tupac Shakur: I Don't give a Fuck, in the album: 2pacalypse, realeased 1992, in the middle part of the song, the voice changes and it sounds like Eazy-e, but it doesn't say it is featured anyone else in the song. If you heard it, you'll know what I'm talking about- SCB '92 15:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not Eazy-E License2Kill 20:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is. SCB '92 11:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No it's not, just because it sounds like him doesn't mean it is. License2Kill 03:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, guys? this is like watching ping-pong, here. The only question we need to ask is, is there a reliable source for this? and if not, hey, it doesn't go into the article. KillerChihuahua?!? 02:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, what I meant with the "just because it sounds like him doesn't mean it is" License2Kill 02:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It was said that tupac didn't like eazy-e but from what I see tupac never even mentioned Easy once. and trust me i've seen just about every interview and videos on tupac. The voice in the song is an artist named Pogo.

[edit] Tattoos and what significance they have

I have written a four paragraph paper on 2Pac's tattoos. Can I/When/How post it up? Thank You

H ramos36 06:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, H ramos36 - I've posted a welcome message on your talk page. That has some links which will help you figure out how to do things around Wikipedia. On the subject of tattoos, we can approach this several ways. First, do you have sources, or is it original research? By original research, that means you looked at pictures and figured it out. KillerChihuahua?!? 11:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe I'm just white..., but isn't his legend the important part?

I would have assumed the big thing he's known for and therefore a dominant part of this article would be his legend, i.e. how much more prolific he has been in death than in life, how much money his owners & family have made since his death from releasing music that obviously Tupac didn't consider worthy of release, and how ubiquitous his posters are within certain regions and demographics. I mean, none of the universally accepted greats, those with 100x the listenership--Elvis, the Beatles, Marley--have released that many official albums after the end of their band. So to me he's a little more like Selena--not necessarily as important musically or politically as he just fit the right niche at the right week, and in a business sense, that floors me much more than his music. The cult of personality, the demagoguery, that there are people who think he's still alive--that's what he's famous for in most of the nation. Shouldn't we mention that? --19:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, 2Pac was the top hiphop/rap artist at the time of his death. Selena was beginning a career which may or may not have ever been particularly successful. Without the talent and the success, there would be no legend. Finally, as interesting as all this might be for casual conversation, unless a reputable music commentator stated that precise thing in a highly reliable source, it is all original research - specifically excluded from use on Wikipedia. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

He made 3 albums during his life that are considered classic. License2Kill 04:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly --Easy duz it 21:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro is too long

I think the Intro is way too long as all the information about his life and career is already mentioned in each of the separate sections that follow. May I suggest we cut it down. Shakirfan 23:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The intro is perfect in my opinion License2Kill 06:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Lead section, the intro shouldn't be longer then 5 sentences and should just introduce the topic at hand. Most the info in this article is already/should be stated below. Although many well written wikipedia articles violate this rule, I still think the intro needs to be slimmed down a little. --Ted87 21:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the intro would be better off looking like this. Most the info is already explained in later paragraphs anyways. If it is not, then it should be added. --Ted87 21:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Tupac Amaru Shakur (June 16, 1971 – September 13, 1996) was an American rap artist, actor, activist, and poet. He is known by various alias such as: 2Pac, Makaveli and Pac. He is known in the Guinness Book of World Records as the top-selling hip-hop artist, having sold over 73 million albums worldwide.[1] This includes over 44.5 million sales in the United States alone.[2] Most of Shakur's songs are about growing up around violence and hardship in ghettos, racism, problems in society, and sometimes his feuds with fellow rappers. Shakur is known for the political, economic, and messages of racial equality found in much of his work. He has been ranked by many fans, critics, and industry insiders as the greatest rapper ever.[3][4]

Born in New York City, Tupac frequently found his family changing place of residence. In 1988, his family moved to California, where he would reside for the rest of his life. In 1990, he was hired as a backup dancer for the alternative rap group Digital Underground. Tupac's debut album, 2Pacalypse Now, gained critical recognition and backlash for its controversial lyrics. Shakur became the target of various lawsuits, and experienced legal troubles. Most notably, he was convicted of sexually assaulting a woman in 1993 (although he vigorously denied the claims). The day before the guilty verdict was issued, Shakur was shot five times in a recording studio lobby in Manhattan, wounding him. Following the incident, Shakur grew suspicious that other figures in the rap industry had prior knowledge of the shooting and did not warn him; the controversy would help spark the later East Coast-West Coast feud. After serving eleven months of his sentence, Shakur was released from prison on bail by Marion "Suge" Knight, the CEO of Death Row Records. In exchange, Shakur would release three records under the label, with his fifth album, the first ever double-disc album in hip hop history All Eyez on Me counting as two albums. On September 7, 1996, Tupac was shot four times in a drive-by shooting in Las Vegas, Nevada. On September 13, 1996, six days after the shooting, Tupac died of respiratory failure and cardiac arrest at University Medical Center, Las Vegas.

Tupac's music addresses such topics as the hardships of growing up around violence in United States ghettos, poverty, racism, and his feuds with fellow rappers. During his life his music has attracted a large amount of controversy and was showcased in the media a number of times.

--Ted87 21:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I would support this trimming. Anyone else have a comment? KillerChihuahua?!? 12:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It's already been trimmed down a few days ago License2Kill 20:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

Tupac was a true legend. He will forever be one of the realist and truest MCs ever. I still love his 2pacalypse Now CD! Tupac was a "real" musician because he talked about poverty, and racism. He wasn't like these other loser rappers today talking about cars and clothes, he was an epic rapper. When Tupac said Thug life, he meant it as a meaning to improve the impoverished community and have people rise up against their own problems in life. Basically, he meant it as a positive thing. But the Media, and all those nutheads like Bob Dole and Dan Quayle, kept making Tupac to be negative. They kept trying to portray him as this evil person, wherelse he was exactly opposite. Tupac to me, represented the intelligence of the black race that the society tries to hinder and destroy. He represented the unheard of voices and the consciousness rarely seen in a lot of rappers. That's why the media and the society kept bothering him, because they knew that he was telling the truth. As Tupac said in the "Rebel of the Underground": "The world's most dangerous weapon is the educated black man"! Apparently, he was right, and that is why they feared him. Sadly, the media and the press alike were not going to quick untill Pac no longer existed, but you know what, his legacy will last forever, and as much as the ignorant society may whine and act stupid, I will always remember him as a big brother-RIP Tupac FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!

what the f*ck has that have to do with imporving this damn article? PS. SIGN YOUR COMMENT Apo2Pac 01:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up

Paragraphs 1 and 3 need to be combined, two of the sentances are almost exactly the same Bigbadbyte 07:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

dont you thinl that the rose volume 1 and 2 should be under other albums? or atleast mentioned in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.114.3.235 (talk • contribs) 02:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Done License2Kill 04:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

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