Talk:Tungsten

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Article changed over to new Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements format by maveric149. Elementbox converted 11:12, 14 July 2005 by Femto (previous revision was that of 15:26, 12 July 2005).

Contents

[edit] Information Sources

Some of the text in this entry was rewritten from Los Alamos National Laboratory - Magnesium. Additional text was taken directly from USGS Tungsten Statistics and Information, from the Elements database 20001107 (via dict.org), Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (via dict.org) and WordNet (r) 1.7 (via dict.org). Data for the table was obtained from the sources listed on the subject page and Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements but was reformatted and converted into SI units.

[edit] Talk

Are +2, +3, +4, +5 common oxidation states?

I also question this. By far the most common oxidation state is +6, as found in WO3, WO4-2, H2W12O40-6 , etc
I have modified the page to reflect this. Humanist

There were minimum oxidation state -2. Replaced it with +2, because metals do not have negative oxidation states. --Yyy 08:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. The minimum should be -2. A real example is the compound Na2W(CO)5 (sodium pentacarbonyltungstate), where assigning CO as a neutral ligand gives you a tungsten oxidation state of -2! I think there also may be a [W(CO)4]4- salt also. John Ellis and his group at the Univ. of Minnesota were very active in these low oxidation state compounds. habrahamson 08:55 CDT 2006-10-25

[edit] Wolfram is German word, right?

I thought Wolfram was a German word, and so the "W" symbol was the only chemical element symbol to come from a language other than Latin. But the article claims a Latin form. Isn't it more likely that the Latin form is modern, taken from the German?

Likely, I heard that the word comes from an archaic german form of "wolf-rust" or similar... Maybe we should add "New Latin" or something.
Chlorine comes from the Greek χλωρóς chloros, meaning "pale green". Do you mean the only chemical element symbol to consist of a letter that was not used in the ancient Latin alphabet? Booshank 14:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not latin: don't be misled by the "ium" in "Wolframium" My understanding of the naming is:

  • The mineral Wolframite (origin of name unknown)
    • Extracted from this was a metal named Wolfram after the mineral

Malcolm Farmer 23:06, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Here are some references and suggestions. Somebody else may put it into a useful edit of the article.

This [1] includes the etymology of Wolframite \Wol"fram*ite\, n. [G., wolframit, wolfram; wolf wolf + rahm cream, soot; cf. G. wolfsruss wolfram, lit., wolf's soot.] (Min.)

[2] (also contains other reference data): Tungsten - (Swedish, tung sten, heavy stone); also known as wolfram (from wolframite, said to be named from wolf rahm or spumi lupi, because the ore interfered with the smelting of tin and was supposed to devour the tin)

http://www.tungsten.com/tunghist.html however gives a more detailed etymology than most dictionaries and it appears that the origin of the word wolfram is more or less obscure.

The name "wolframium" seems to be only of historical interest (but definitely label it New Latin). It shouldn't be mentioned in the lead paragraph (the W symbol is already explained with wolfram), but in the history section where there is more room for writing things out and explaining, together with "spumi lupi".

>> wolframite (which was later named for Woulfe)

I removed it until somebody can provide a cite for it. It seems that "wolf-rahm" was used well before Woulfe, and I couldn't find any connection to the common convention (introduced 1820 by A. Breithaupt) to give the name "wolframite" to the mineral.

>> In 1781 Carl Wilhelm Scheele ascertained that a new acid could be made from tungstenite

I believe Scheele worked on "tung sten", later named "scheelite" after him, which would be calcium tungstate (the 'compound of tungstic acid and lime'). However, tungstenite is tungsten sulfide in modern use. Could somebody check this?

Femto 20:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

---

I don't see why it should necessarily have to come from German? Anyhow, "everybody else" doesen't ignore the name Wolfram, as a matter of fact, most languages still retain it over Tungsten.--TVPR 07:08, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, all Germanic languagues that I know of apart from English use Wolfram or similar form rather than Tungsten. So do most Central and Eastern European languages and some others such as Turkish. Booshank 14:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tungsten Oxide

I thought tungsten oxide is a volatile oxide (hence not protective), which is why light bulbs need to be evacuated or filled with inert gas - to prevent the oxidation of the tungsten at elevated temperatures.

It depends on the temperature: "Forms a protective oxide in air and can be oxidized at high temperature." [3] (added to article) Femto 20:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Most bulbs are filled with Argon to preven oxidation, and although Tungsten is a self protective metal, consider this.

The oxide would tend to crumble due to repeated expansion and contractions from dramatic heating and cooling of a light bulb filament as the light is repeatedly turned on and off. Even some air would get through at the super hot temperatures of the filament. The oxide would tend to block the light given off.

[edit] Edited applications list regarding hastelloy, stellite, tool steel, high speed steel

I moved the hastelloy and stellite links from "high speed steel" to "superalloy" since neither are steels. Stellite is cobalt-based and hastelloy is primarily nickel. I also removed tool steel from the superalloy line since it is not a superalloy and rarely contains tungsten. Tungsten's added heat-resistance is what differentiates high speed steel from plain tool steel. Ryanrs 08:03, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Melting point

How about rewording this -

(also for the fact that it has a higher melting point then any other non alloy in existence)

to this -

(also for the fact that it has the highest melting point of any metal, and the highest of any element except carbon)

[edit] Isotopes

Why is there a sentance stating the "resistance" of tungsten at the bottom of this paragraph? The material properties column already lists the resistivity of tungsten which is a much more fundamental material property.

[edit] wrong info here

The isotope stability information on this page is wrong [4]

[edit] Heavy Stone?

Why is called "Heavy Stone" in english? isnt that ilogical when the sign for it is W, and that the one who discovered it called it wolfram?

Because tung sten (Swedish) means heavy stone in English.

[edit] Melting temperature

On other wiki's the melting temp is mentioned to be 3407, also searching on G00gle for wolfraam 3407 shows me enough resources to believe that 3407 is correct. Do we use the wrong temp on the en:wiki ?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 57.67.146.66 (talk • contribs) .

High Google counts don't say anything about correctness. There are a lot of collections on the Web that just copy some outdated and unsourced data from each other, including many Wikis.
This temperature is a secondary fixed point on the International Temperature Scale of 1990 and thus exact by definition—though there have been going on some redefinitions in the past years. Until someone can dig up the most recent specifications, I'd say the value from the CRC handbook is reliable (reference is melting points of the elements (data page)). Femto 11:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm more interested in the wokability and physical characteristics of Tungsten

Wednesday 9-27-06 Portland, OR 3:31pm Pacific Coast Time

Who on the discussion page would be the expert on pure tungsten metal? Considering my extremely low income level, What is the best, lowest price, retail source of this metal? There are plenty of websites that sell both scrap tungsten and new tungsten; but unfortunately the purity of these various forms can vary from website to website. The purist form that I found on one particular website is 99.95% in foil form(apparently pure tungsten is quite difficult to extract.). (It's unfortunate that no one has ever experimented with more cost effective "Sci-Fi" methods of producing tungsten - such as attempting to artificially produce tungsten from simpler metals - similar to how artificially produced diamonds are manufactured. But artificial tungsten is another story and for a PHd - which I'm not!) Does anyone in the discussion page have any physical work experience with tungsten? Is the metal compatible with common workshop tools such as tin-snips, powerdrills, saws, etc. ? I wish to design my own storage/ holding container for "Dry Ice"; This is for a personal, experimental science project that I'm cogitating; Is tungsten tough and strong enough to tolerate physical contact with "Dry Ice" for an indefinite duration of time, or does tungsten undergo any adverse chemical reaction with "dry ice"?

From: MyPresentCPUisTooSlow, registered User (I know, I need to shorten my user name - eventually)

Thanks for your message on my talk page, though I don't have any experience on working with tungsten, and have to pass on these questions. I can only remark that artificial diamond is just a different allotrope of the same element, carbon, while creating tungsten from other materials would involve nuclear transmutation which is rather unfeasible. Note also that this page is primarily for the discussion of the tungsten article. For practical advice, you might try asking at the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science. Femto 20:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


Pure tungsten is too hard (roughly 3000 Brinell, compared to common construction steel which is around 250 Brinell) to cut with most tools. It is much harder then, for example High-speed steel, commonly used in drills. Tungsten is mostly worked by sintering and grinding with diamonds.

[edit] Amorphous tungsten alloy?

Does anyone know anything about this substance, and would it be a good addition to the article? Someone please answer. I heard that it is just like depleted uranium in that it is self-sharpening and pyrophoric, but not radioactive. DebateKid 20:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing history

The history section needs some work, and has some contradictory information. The first paragraph (which shouldn't be the first paragraph) gives the etymology of the name "Wolfram", with a 1747 date for Wallerius' denomination thereof. But then the next paragraph says it was first hypothesized to exist in 1779. I imagine there's something about it existing as an element in 1779, but I'm unsure just what's being said there. We probably need something more along the lines of Niobium#History, since they have similar naming issues. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

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