Talk:Tulse Hill

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[edit] Which Hill is Tulse Hill?

I have noticed that the railway station named "Tulse Hill" is on a different hill from the road of the same name. Which hill is the real "Tulse Hill" ; the one with the road, the one with the station or another one again ???

[edit] Page Move

I have put this page back at Tulse Hill. If Knights Hill deserves an article then it should get its own one. If there is a reason for the move, can I suggest you put it on the talk page with reasons first? Thanks, Regan123 00:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split

I Alec - U.K. propose a split into:

  • Tulse Hill & Effra Road
  • Tulse Hill & Knights Hill
  • Tulse Hill & West Dulwich

Alec - U.K. 01:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Why? West Dulwich is already covered in Dulwich, Knights Hill and Effra Road are either sub areas or simply roads. Unless there is something particularly notable about them, then I don't see why Brixton, Dulwich, Tulse Hill (which is about the area, not the road) and West Norwood cannot cover the relevant facts.
These splits seem totally illogical to me. MRSC • Talk 07:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
West Dulwich is not covered in Dulwich. The Croxted Road is the traditional dividing line between Dulwich & West Dulwich (the station being another station that is outside the area it takes its name from). Croxted Road is also a borough boundry. The Dulwich article says nothing of West Dulwich and it states that Dulwich is in the London Borough of Southwark.
Knights' Hill is another hill with its peak on the other side of the south circular. The road of the same name leads towards it in a straight line from Crown Point down to the one way system at West Norwood. The road was renamed having been previously called Knights' Hill Road or Knights' Hill Street and I regard it as being at the other end of the West Norwood area.
"Tulse Hill" and "Effra Road" are the names of road leading towards Knights' Hill from the High Street and Town Centre at Brixton. The one named Tulse Hill has been abreviated from "Tulse Hill Road" and traverses another hill. The church on the same hill is said to be on "Trinity Rise". N.B. not Tulse Hill
Tulse Hill and West Dulwich both have areas of housing with links to charitable organisations.
Tulse Hill and Knights hill were both built in the second millenium A.D. , are right next to each other and should be regarded as historic places. (not that anyone living should be there)
The article seems to surgest that Jean Charles De Menezes may have died because he was a troglodyte. Alec - U.K. 02:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
This is from the Dulwich article -
Duliwich is a generally prosperous settlement in the London Borough of Southwark. There are number of recognised districts in Dulwich. These include:
* North Dulwich which borders Herne Hill
* Dulwich Village which includes the traditional village centre, and is the home of the world famous Dulwich Picture Gallery together with Alleyn's School, James Allen's Girls' School, Dulwich College and Dulwich Park
* Dulwich Wood in the south bordering Crystal Palace
* East Dulwich which bounds Peckham and includes the best restaurants in the area.
* West Dulwich which is a mainly residential area in the London Borough of Lambeth bordering West Norwood and Tulse Hill.
West Dulwich is part of Dulwich and should be dealt with there. If needed the opening statement should be chnaged to cover the fact that it is also in Lambeth,
On the Ordnance Survey maps Knights Hill is shown as being in Tulse Hill. The Ordnance Survey maps are the definitive UK mapping source. Also it is surely not notable enough.
This article is not about roads but is about an area. If there are other definitions of Tulse Hill they should be covered in the Tulse Hill article. Knights Hill is nothing unique as a housing estate (unless there is somehting unusual that happened there) and can be covered in the Tulse Hill article. Splitting them just divides the information up when it is not required.Regan123 08:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Regan123 - Tulse Hill is an area, not a road, and there's no need for a split. Vashti 19:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Tulse Hill is the name of;
  • 1 A hill - next to Knights' Hill.
  • 2 The area on the hill - Which adjoins West Dulwich in Lambeth.
  • 3 The railway station - on the aforesaid neighbouring hill.
  • 4 An A-road - formerly named "Tulse Hill Road" on another neighbouring hill which Menezes caught a bus on on the last day that he lived also giving that hill (the one with the schools mentioned on it), a place in history as well (The other 2 were already historic). Alec - U.K. 00:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
See getamap for the Ordnance Survey map which shows it as an area. This article is not about a hill, it is about a place, that is centred in a dip on a one way system on the South Circular - see the OS map just linked to. The same also shows Knight's Hill is a district within the area of Tulse Hill.
Also I have a Phillips Road Atlas (based on OS data) that shows Tulse Hill in SW2. Several other editors have also put it into that area. The dividing line runs along the South Circular to the west. A Postcode search in the area shows eg. SW2 3**).
If a seperate article is needed to cover Tulse Hill (road) then that can be created, however where Charles de Menezes was living on that sad morning does not make it automatically notable. Shooters Hill, Primrose Hill are notable (eg. being the highest in London), but the hills around Tulse Hill are not, in my opinion, notable.
This article needs to be changed back the article to reflect its original focus on the area. If there needs to be information on the "hills" then we could have a Topography section
Finally some of the recent changes have added sections like Areas not so near which don't seem to add anything. As there is no consesus I would ask that no further edits be made until these matters are resolved. Regan123 01:38, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I have had a look at the map and it has the hill that the name Tulse Hill was created for labelled as "Knights' Hill". It is a mistake that it has in common with at least on other map that I have seen. It is an understandable mistake. I think I can expain it. I have seen a centuraries old map showing Knights' Hill but not Tulse Hill. Tulse Hill is the larger of the 2 hills. Any map showing just showing one of the 2 hills but not the other might be reasonably be assumed to be showing the larger of the 2, that is unless you consider that one hill might have existed before the other did. Both hills were made in historic times are their construction was related to historical events in history. Both hills are hundreds of years old. It would seem to me that the map showing the one hill without the other had been drawn up after Knights' Hill was build, but before the construction of the relatively large, Tulse Hill.

I would draw your attention to evidence that I think might be said to be of an archeiologically intresting nature but I think it is also of a nature that I suspect would be seen as unpolitique for me too mention here, especialy on a Sunday, as it is right now in the U.K. Alec - U.K. 02:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Alec, I think you are missing the point. This is not an article about a hill it is an article about a place. The map cited is from the Ordnance Survey which is the official UK government map - it generally doesn't get any better than this! I don't understand how you can construct a hill. Living in this part of London, i have to say that your deifinition of Tulse differs from everyone else I know. I have asked a member of WP:Lon for some guidance and would ask - again - that you make no further edits to this page until a consensus has been reached. 02:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)Regan123
The map you mentioned is wrong. It is not unknown for British governments to be wrong so why should a nationalised or privatised company be assumed to be any different?? Is it the word "Hill" that you do not like? If you pile lots of earth into a big pile and you keep on piling on more and more earth until the top of it until at the top it, you are at a similar height as the top of a nearby hill, what else would you call it if not a hill: a pile??? Alec - U.K. 04:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately it doesn't matter if the map is wrong, or if the hill is mislabelled, so long as the WP article corresponds to the maps. Ordnance Survey maps are reliable sources, and what is required for WP articles is that they are verifiable. If you have documentation demonstrating that the map is wrong, then by all means bring it to the table so that it can be considered and cited. Vashti 14:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The map is correct. The hill shown by OS as "Knights Hill" at TQ315735 - which now has the Peabody estatea on its slopes - is not the hill historically called Tulse Hill, even though many local people use this name. Confusion has been rife for many years:

"The history of this district, and of the rest of Norwood lying in Lambeth parish is greatly complicated by the existence of two areas both called Knight's Hill. The southerly Knight's Hill formed part of Lambeth Manor and lies to the south of St Lukes Church, while the other comprised the detached portion of the Manor of Leigham Court and of the parish of Streatham ... and lies between Norwood Road and Croxted Road." [1] --Lang rabbie 17:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

  1. ^ Survey of London Volume XXVI The Parish of St Mary Lambeth (Part II: Southern Area) pp167-168 The Athlone Press, London 1956, reprinted in facsimile AMS Press New York 1979

[edit] Places that are not so near

I will remove this section. It is very odd addition and to be honest, Cairo could be within its scope. MRSC • Talk 07:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed tag

What exactly is being disputed? MRSC • Talk 18:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I've just looked at the page history, and was somewhat surprised to see that the disputed tag was inerted by Alec - U.K. - I had assumed it was posted by another contributor commenting on Alec's own contributions. So far looking only at one reputable printed source, I can find more than half a dozen issues to dispute with Alec - U.K. which justify keeping a disputed tag on this article, although not for his reasons:
(i) Knight's Hill (see reference above) and Tulse Hill are not the same place.
(ii) The area generally known as Tulse Hill is not a separate hill. It is an area of development on one slope of a larger ridge, and takes its name from the principal road.
(iii) Part of the area was developed before the arrival of the railways. Tulse Hill and Upper Tulse Hill roads were laid out before 1821 and substantial numbers of houses existed by the 1840s.
(iv)The area is named Tulse Hill after a family called Tulse, who were local landowners during the period of the Commonwealth, not for "the word Tulse"?
(v) In sixteen years living in Lambeth, I have never heard of Trinity Hill.
(vi)Surely the hill referred to with regard to St Martin in the Fields School is Tulse Hill (the road)?
(vii)All Saint's Church is undoubtedly in West Dulwich, rather than Tulse Hill.
(viii) Surely neither Knight's Hill nor Trinity Rise qualify as "places" under the Wikipedia London project?
--Lang rabbie 18:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I think everyone except Alec would agree with you. The page should be about Tulse Hill as a place - all this talk of hills is confusing. Claret 19:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Lang rabbie for the full response. Let's edit those problems out now rather than re-tag the article. It appears Alec - U.K.'s alternative views are entirely without support. MRSC • Talk

[edit] MERGE Section:Trinity Hill into Brixton Hill

  • {{{propose}}} The Trinity Hill section should be merged into the Brixton Hill article. The schools mentioned are all SW2 schools on the same [[hill] as Brixton Hill 87.194.35.230 17:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Trinity Hill (I've never heard of it either) - is that Trinity Rise? There's no way that should be merged; it's in Tulse Hill and Brixton Hill is, well, not. Those schools are all in Tulse Hill and *not* in Brixton. Vashti 18:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose Agree with Vashti above for the same reasons. Regan123 11:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no valid reason to do this. MRSC • Talk 13:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MERGE Section:Norwood Road / The South Circular section into Norwood Road article

  • {{{propose}}} This part of the article seems to be about the area central to Norwood Road. It is not a hill. 87.194.35.230 17:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

If you have any references to show Trinity Hill is a common term, please cite them - I have never heard of Trinity Hill. Tulse Hill is used generally as a district of south London, not to refer to a physical feature. It is distinct from Brixton Hill which is a mile or two to the west. Claret 18:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

As mentioned elsewhere on this page, we are talking about a place, not a hill. Tulse Hill is a district of South London which covers much more than one lump of soil.Regan123 11:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tulse Hill is a hill

Tulse Hill is a hill or mound.

There is no district called Tulse Hill District.

Tulse Hill is not a district.

Tulse Hill Estate is not a district.

There is no sub-divsion of the London Borough of Lambeth that local people call Tulse Hill.

Tulse hill is the name of the hill with the railway tunnel through it that can be seen from Tulse Hill Station. 87.194.35.230 19:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you google Tulse Hill, you will see plenty of sites talking about it as an area; eg 'pubs and bars in Tulse Hill'. On sites such as Craigslist you can see people describe a 'flat in Tulse Hill' etc. Claret 20:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It would appear that other people do call it Tulse Hill as in an area: see here, here, here, these people are talking about Tulse Hill as a place, the Church is calling it a parish and so on and so forth. Regan123 21:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
More of this rubbish. Ordnance Survey have is as a location. MRSC • Talk 13:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The church on Knights Hill - Green steeple, near the station"

Does this mean the former St Cuthbert's Presbyterian Church on Thurlow Park Road - which has a short copper spire?--Lang rabbie 23:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

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