Talk:Tsinghua University

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[edit] Title

Has Wikipedia standardized on pinyin? If so this article needs to be moved to "Xinghua University". --Fritzlein

Not even so. That would be "Qinghua". But the traditional name of the University, still widely used is "Tsinghua". olivier 14:34 Nov 11, 2002 (UTC)
The university still calls itself "Tsinghua University." See the official site at http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/eng/. —Lowellian (talk) 14:13, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Unlike most Chinese names, some historic ones keep the traditional spelling to avoid confusion, or just because the standardized pinyin does not sounds/looks cool. Tsinghua is a good example for this.--Manchurian Tiger 22:01, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

There has never been a "Qinghua University" in this world. --Manchurian Tiger 15:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Please follow the Wikipedia's convention: "Historical names and titles Convention: In general, use the most common form of the name used in English (not necessarily the name translated into English)..."

Tsinghua is not a translation, it has been the OFFICIAL name in English and all other werstern languages since day one. I'll fight any attempts trying to alter the school's name.--Manchurian Tiger 18:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Qinghua University vs. Tsinghua University

The debate over Qinghua University vs. Tsinghua University is interesting, as is Beijing University vs. Peking University.

Regardless of the legitimacy of these names, 6.7% of the googled entries of Tsinghua/Qinghua University used Qinghua, and a staggering 28% of googled entries of Peking/Beijing University used Beijing.

Perhaps more dramatic is the results you get when you search the internationally influential The New York Times as of 2005-10-11. Since 1981, there are 99 entries of Qinghua University as opposed to 31 of Tsinghua University; and there are 392 of Beijing University as opposed to 53 of Peking University.

Apparently, by the time Tsinghua University was established, the Wade-Giles system had not quite become popular. So someone used a combination of the Roman letters to approximate the vocal values of the two Chinese characters 清华. Yes, I suppose Tsinghua is the transliteration of 清华, but not an independent English name, and Tsinghua itself is not an English word. This is not like the English name, John, chosen by a Chinese guy named Jianhua. Just as Peking in the name Peking University has been intended to mean 北京.

In other words, they had no choice at that time but were forced to coin up a combination to express the name of the university in the English context. The same is apparently true of the word Peking for the city.

We know that pinyin was developed by the Chinese government in 1958. And since 1977, it had been the official romanization system for Chinese at the UN, and it got the official standard in 1979. On August 1, 1981 it also became an ISO standard (ISO 7098: Information and documentation -- Romanization of Chinese).

Based on this system, Tsinghua is Qinghua, and Peking is Beijing. Nevertheless, the two universities worried that their glorious histories would be buried in the dust, and they would not be recognized internationally if they wrote their names as Qinghua University and Beijing University.

But the city of Beijing has never had such worry, and the use of Beijing soon became universal, and Peking, as a consequence, literally fell to disuse.

Interestingly, the now fairly frequently used Beijing University, as opposed to Peking University, in the Western media, was not originated from the authority of the university, but from Western journalists.

Although Tsinghua is not a place name as is Beijing, but it corresponds to the Chinese characters 清华.

The statement "There has never been a Qinghua University in this world" is an emotionally charged one. Apparently, it is used to refer to Tsinghua University. A similar statement could have been made about the city: "There has never been a Beijing in this world. Only Peking.'"

The state of the matter is kind of lugubrious, as only the university authorities and their alumni, as it were, like these old fashioned spellings. Other folks get their Qinghua and Beijing when they derive these spellings from the Chinese names of these universities, or they simply slip to the pinyin version in an unguarded moment.

In my opinion, it is to the best of their interest if the two universities slowly shift to Qinghua University and Beijing University. They may first include both names in their official websites with the old ones in parentheses, and in time, they can completely get rid of the old ones. Otherwise, the confusion and two different spellings will continue, as the pinyin version of these names is the linguistically legitimate verion and a natural extension for those people who know the Chinese language and pinyin. The terms, Tsinghua and Peking, as of now, are technically/linguistically illegitimate words, and it is an anachronism to insist on their continued use. And it requires extra and unnecessary effort to learn them. As in the case of the city that shifted from Peking to Bejing, the two great Chinese universities will not lose their glorious histories. Those who remain clueless forever about Qinghua University and Beijing University are perhaps not worth knowing them at all.

Or the two universities will engage in a perpetual task to dispel the confusion and to right the wrong, or more aptly, to wrong the right, spellings as one generation of young people after another grow up in the years to come as Chinese and pinyin become more and more popular. --Roland 06:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC) --Roland 23:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

This is all very interesting, but it's not for Wikipedia to make history. 清华大学 calls itself Tsinghua University - there's no ambiguity about that - so this debate seems rather moot to me. --pfctdayelise 12:43, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Well said, sistah! By the way, what does "moot" mean? Is it an Aussie slang?--Manchurian Tiger 21:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Indeed it is not. See [1] adj - sense 2. It's an interesting debate -- maybe it is an anachronism to keep using "Tsinghua" -- but it is rendered irrelevant by Wikipedia policy. - pfctdayelise 00:15, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

When he compared the use of "Tsinghua" to "Peking," Roland ingored the fact that Tsinghua University has never accepted the spelling of "Qinghua", while Beijing officially adopted the use of "Beijing." Pfctdayelise is cool by telling the common sense "it's not for Wikipedia to make history. 清华大学 calls itself Tsinghua University - there's no ambiguity about that". I think the school's own will for her own name should be respected just as we respect a person's choice of his/her own name. Is there any problem for this?--Manchurian Tiger 22:05, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ranking

I removed 'In 2001, Tsinghua University was ranked as the best university in China (simultaneously with Beijing University).' until someone can tell us the source of this ranking. --Kaihsu Tai 15:17, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Boxer indemnity

Is "was funded by an indemnity which China paid the United States after the Boxer Rebellion" correct? China paid the US, and then the US actually established the university on China's behalf? —Lowellian (talk) 14:09, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

I asked a bunch of Chinese students in Beijing and they all say that Americans founded Tsinghua, so I guess it's true, I was surprised myself. --220.245.178.135 12:49, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

As a Tsinghua graduate, I confirm that the school indeed was created using the fund from the US government which is the part of the Boxer Indemnity that was considered over paid. The early faculty members were recruited from US by YMCA.--Manchurian Tiger 22:06, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I would say that the ranking of 2001 came from netbig.

In which Tsinghua U and Peking U both ranked 1st.

That Netbig ranking is extremely questionable, but I think it's safe to safe that Peking and Tsinghua are tied for first, especially considering that those two have the highest entry standards in the Chinese university admissions test every year. --220.245.178.135 12:51, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No need for "one of the two .. in BJ"

The words "one of the most .... in China" are alreay there, "one of the two most famous .. in BJ" is really unneccessary.--Manchurian Tiger 22:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

It is totally unneccessary to mention about "Beijing University" here as "the other most famous universities in BJ". If you have to mention BeiDa while talking about Tsinghua, then why not mention BeiHang, or BeiGang here as well? You might say, oh they are not good enough. Then who says BeiDa is good enough? Remember, this is not a place to keep these type of judgmental claims.--Manchurian Tiger 15:17, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
No one says they are not good enough, merely in terms of fame, like Cambridge and Oxford, these are usually the two most well known in Beijing. Fame is not a judgmental quality. Furthermore fame and prestige are not synonymous. [2] If you want to be more accurate you might as add "multi-disciplinary"; I'm not even sure there are other multidisciplinary universities in Beijing.
Also, please don't keep removing the pinyin transliteration without reason. Prestigious references like the Columbia Encyclopedia and Britannica uses both transliterations [3] [4]. There are 76,200 websites using this pinyin name according to Google. You may not like pinyin, but Wikipedia is not titrated to your personal preference. Mandel 07:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Please take note: this article's title is "Tsinghua University" but not "most famous universities in BJ". Why one has to mention BeiDa in the opening statement about "Tsinghua"? The spelling "Qinghua" is just a mistake, no matter how many you can find on Google. Once again, there is no "Qinghua" University in this world. It is not for my own taste as you claimed. Please respect the way a school and its alumni spell their school's name.--Manchurian Tiger 01:55, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] anachronism

Although the university authority is the ultimate arbitor over what spelling to use, it is technically an anachronism to insist on the old Peking in its name. As long as the university uses this outdated spelling, confusions will continue to arise. As of now, 28% percent of the googled entries of Peking/Beijing University used Beijing instead of Peking.

If the city of Beijing has successfully shifted to the new spelling from Peking in a short period of time, so can the two universities. --Roland 00:42, 11 October 2005 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hunterdong (talk • contribs) 20:59, 28 December 2005.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Peking_University"

Please read #Qinghua University vs. Tsinghua University above. And please sign your own posts by typing four tildes like this: ~~~~. Thanks. pfctdayelise 13:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Alma mater"

"Alma mater" should not be used to mean "school song" for the avoidance of confusion.

It may be that the song was written by an American, or indeed the University was "American", or that the University may still call it an "alma mater". However, while all of this leads to the song being called the "Alma mater", the use of the term "alma mater" as a non-proper noun to mean university songs in general is inappropriate.

Why? Because, shock and horror, there are actually people in the world who speak English and aren't American! And they occasionally read Wikipedia, too! Isn't that amazing?

And to these people, "alma mater" does not mean a school song, it means simply a university/school. For example, the Oxford English Dictionary, regarded as an authority on the (non-American) English language, states as the meaning of "Alma mater":

A title given by the Romans to several goddesses, especially to Ceres and Cybele, and transferred in Eng. to Universities and schools regarded as ‘fostering mothers’ to their alumni.

By the Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English, especially the point about common expressions, regionalisms such as the use of "alma mater" to mean a song should be avoided if a substitute has the same meaning across varieties. Here, that would mean something like a "university song" or "anthem".

Still on the subject of regionalisms, "university" as a "school" is also American. In Commonwealth English "school" means an educational institution lesser in status or a constitutent part of a university. Again, this is the English Wikipedia not the American Wikipedia, and articles should be written to cause the least amount of confusion for all readers, not just Americans.


Hello, I responded on your user page, but I replicate part of the response here. If the school itself used the term Alma Mater, we should use Alma Mater. If that is confusing, we should possibly add a explanatory text like this: Alma Mater (University Anthem).
On your point that we should use "common terms" in English, I agree with you in principle. However, let me remind you that the Chicago manual of style which is referred to, is an American manual, which differs with British English in some respects.
Furthermore, if we backtrack a bit, in the case of ROC/Taiwan, it seemed that common terms was strongly opposed from many quartes, regardless of what people in the English speaking world actually call the government of that island. In that debate, it was argued that the commonly used term "Taiwan" was not advisable, since the ROC did call itself Taiwan in its constitution. Even the term ROC (Taiwan) was deemed inappropriate. So if you want to be consistent, it should be Alma Mater.--Niohe 00:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Ah, the inefficiencies of cross-posting... I replicate below part of my post on your talk page as well >.<
Taiwan is a different issue: that was "common terms" in the sense of the commonly used term. This is "common terms" in the sense of terms common to different varieties of English. I have no problem with identifying the university's anthem as the "Alma mater", if that is indeed how it is called. I object to the use of "alma mater" to identify university songs in general. And yes, a bracketed explanation could be acceptable.
I very much doubt the university still identifies the university song officially as the "alma mater", given that the song is in Chinese, and given the restructuring along Soviet models in the 1950s, and given that it is run by a bunch of Communists. Nonetheless, I am willing to listen to evidence. --Sumple (Talk) 00:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Just For your information from Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Main Entry: al·ma ma·ter Pronunciation: "al-m&-'mä-t&r Function: noun Etymology: Latin, fostering mother 1 : a school, college, or university which one has attended or from which one has graduated 2 : the song or hymn of a school, college, or university

As many traditions for Tsinghua, the one, the Alma Mater, is stemmed from its early history with American influence. As indicated in the article, surprisingly for you maybe, the first Alma Mater was called Alma Mater. I don't understand why you're bitching around about it. If an Alma Mater for a school in England or a school established by Brits is called "university song" in their English, then be it. But it's absolutely not the case for Tsinghua.--Manchurian Tiger 03:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ergh look, it's very simple. Read to the end of this post before replying.
  1. Alma mater means a "school song" in American English, but not in Commonwealth English.
  2. Tsinghua university's song, according to you, is called "the Alma Mater", which is fine. I have no problems with it.
  3. The paragraph currently says:
The school's Alma Mater with Chinese lyrics (by Mr. Wang Luanxiang) was composed by Mrs. Zhang Huizhen around 1923 and became the school's official Alma Mater.
which is confusing as to whether "alma mater" here means that particular song, or university songs in general.
  1. As a result, to a non-American English speaker, the paragraph means something like "The school's original university ... was composed by ... and became the school's official original university", which does not make sense at all, because alma mater does not mean "a university's song/anthem" to a non-American English speaker.
I hope that makes things clear.
If the university still calls its song "the Alma Mater", than this paragraph should read something like
"the university's official song, the Alma Mater, with Chinese lyrics by ... became the university's official song."
I have no problems with Americans (thank God, otherwise the Australian government would lock me up), or American English, or Tsinghua calling its song the "Alma Mater". My problem is that this pragraph makes no sense to someone who isn't American.
Now, any objections against this version? --Sumple (Talk) 04:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean that all the non-American English speakers are idiots who can not understand that alma mater in America also means school anthem? The word "alma mater" here is not the title of the anthem but a common noun. You got it? Therefore, your above edit is totally clueless. Let me tell you again: alma mater, in America and at Tsinghua, also means school anthem. Your dingleberry interpration of "university song" sounds like something from the Sasame Street rather than formal English. Why don't you change all the names of football leagues in America to something else since it confuses you with soccer? Give me an example that a school calls its alma mater a "song", will you? If you still can't be convinced, check out the articles for Harvard or Yale or any school who have an alma mater but not a "song".--Manchurian Tiger 05:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, by your definition, yes, most non-American English speakers are idiots. Clearly, you have not read in full what I have written above. If, after everything I have written above, you still think "alma mater" meaning an anthem is a "common noun", then I have nothing to say to you. Normally I don't subscribe to stereotypes, but you have just confirmed the stereotype of the bigoted, insular, and self-centred American.
As to your point about Harvard or Yale, yes I think they should make clear that "alma mater" is a song. But anyway, have you noticed where Tsinghua University is? It's in Beijing! And you know what? That's not in the United States of America, unfortunately. You're 50 years out of date, I'm afraid. --Sumple (Talk) 06:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Listen up, dude. Your reference of "self-centered American " trash-talking here is no class. Don't you think you are "self-centered" in the first place by changing alma mater to a toddler bubbler "university song" - according to your "self-centered" interpretion of commonwealth English? If an American did in your way to change the FIFA to FISA according to American English "soccer" for "football", that's "self-centered". And you never answered my question - which university in the Commonwealth has a thing called "university song"? Tsinghua is not in US, neither is it in your commonwealth.--Manchurian Tiger 17:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
What's "self-centred" is calling every person who doesn't speak your variety of English an "idiot". You still don't get it, do you? "Alma mater" in the sense of a song is not a common term outside of the US. Anyone who doesn't know American English will not know what you are talking about, okay? "University" is a common term, am I right? You know what that means, yes? And so is "song", right? If you don't like my formulation, you can supply your own version.
The problem here is that the sentence makes no sense to a non-American, and a simple rewording can eliminate that confusion. If, for some reason, you don't understand "university song", the least you can do is to wikify "Alma mater" and refer it to Alma mater#"Alma mater" as song
For your information, in Australia we sing De Brevitate Vitae by tradition, but you don't see me going around changing references to "academic song" to "guadeamus igitur", do you? That was an awful analogy but I hope you get the point.
I'm sorry for using bolding here, but I just want to make sure my key messages are getting across.
Okay? This is not some ideaological debate. It's a simple matter that other people won't get it! Stop assuming that if its American, it must be known by the rest of the world.
On a general knowledge point, most (traditional) schools in Commonwealth countries (that is, educational institutions other than universities) have their own songs, but these are never called "alma maters" - they're just "school songs".
Finally, you don't own this article, and you cannot simply revert whatever you don't like. You've already breached 3RR on this matter, but I don't think things like 3RR matter to you, do they? --Sumple (Talk) 22:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. This is the first time I've seen the word 'alma mater' to mean 'school song', probably because I'm not American. And no, I didn't even suspect that it had that meaning. In the interest being kind to English speakers everywhere, even if the meaning is crystal-clear to American speakers, I suggest that Sumple's suggestion should be followed.


In fact, Wikipedia has a guideline on this at [5] where it says: "Try to find words that are common to all."


Bathrobe 08:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

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