Talk:Tsargrad

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[edit] Generally Slavic name

Czargrad (Tzargrad, Tzarigrad) is not specifically Russian but Slavic name for Constantinople and most probably dates from the times the name Constantinople was given to the city as the eastern capital of the Roman Empire. Gradually it has became a centre of the Eastern Orthodox christianity and church. With the christianization of the Slavic peoples the name Tzargrad has spread and became a common designator of the centre of the Eastern Christian hemisphere. It is still used (though Istambul is more common amongst the last generations) at least in Bulgaria.

[edit] Third passage

I don't see how the info on imperial aspirations of Ivan III and "Moscow as the Third Rome" theory fits in this article, considering that the word has been used in Russia ever since the Slavs settled the area. --Ghirlandajo 28 June 2005 10:17 (UTC)

[edit] All these names in the first sentence?

Do we really need all the names in all the languages listed in the very first sentence of the article? Purely stylistically too much clutter. I would restructure the first sentence, leaving perhaps Old Church Slavonic or "Old Chruch Slavonic" there only and saying that written and sounds similarly in other Slavic languages. Later in the text, we could list all names if necessary. I just want to suggest this first, to see if anyone objects. I know striking down names in languages often touch very many raw nerves, and I do it without proposing only when I am absolutely positive that doing so is better for the article. Objections to this change? If anyone wants to do it, you're welcome of course. --Irpen 05:33, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Support. --Ghirlandajo 08:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to merge it anyway, a separate article for a different name of Constantinople/Istanbul is pointless. --Revolución (talk) 18:25, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Strongly oppose deleting important article. --Ghirlandajo 07:33, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Constantinople (Etymology)

I have already merged the content under the Tsargrad to Istanbul (Etymology) , I want to add an redirect link to Istanbul (Etymology) from Tsargrad, are you o.k.--OttomanReference 03:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer the other way. Are you at POV forks again? --Ghirla -трёп- 06:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm reviving this redirection proposal which has been on hold for several months now. Please see Talk:Etymology of Istanbul#Requested moves. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed?

I am not sure what citation Hectorian is requesting... Not only in the medieval vernacular but even today in Bulgarian and Russian (and perhaps in all Slavic languages) the word tsar has very wide meaning — 'ruler of a state'. Even in todays Slavic languages many of the rulers who do not possess official title (such as the rulers of antient Greek states, Persia, Macedonia and many other states) are tsars. The Bulgarian folk tales always use the word tsar for the rulers of some state. The following is a citation from st. Sophronius of Vratsa who is considered to be the first writer in modern Bulgarian language (early 18th century): And also the Bayazid, tsar of the turks, sheding a lot of blood of christians and being brutal to the people, was locked and imprisoned in an iron cage for ever lasting execration of him. The same writer uses the word tsar even for the Pharaons of Egypt (since in the Bible the word Pharaon is not used as a title, but as a personal name): Tsar Pharaon showed arrogance and boldly thought "I don't know a Lord". Of course this doesn't mean that the word sultan was not known to the people as the official title of the rulers in Tsargrad. It should be noted however that the word sultan was used also for some of the local administrators in the Empire: They were arrested by the sultan of that place and were imprisoned and their animals were confiscated (in this citation that place means Edirne). --Zinoviev 14:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The thing is explained in great detail in the article tsar. BTW, I removed the sentence stating that "tsar" meant "independent monarch". It did come to mean a monarch, (after having meant "emperor" for some time) but it is unclear when that change occurred, and it appeared much later than the name Tsargrad - somewhere in the 18th or 19th centuries, after Paisius of Hilendar, who still uses "tsar" as a synonym of emperor or Caesar, distinguishing it from "kral" as a synonym of "king", in his list of Bulgarian monarchs. The designation "tsar" for the sultan could have appeared much earlier, too. The position of the sultan as a supreme ruler and a self-appointed successor of the Byzantine emperor could have caused people to call him tsar (i.e. "emperor"). So it's better not to posit a particular meaning for "tsar" in this case, not until sources are found. --194.145.161.227 11:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Quote from Ottoman dynasty: "When Mehmed II seized Constantinople on May 29, 1453, he claimed the title Emperor of the Roman Empire and protector of Orthodox Christianity. He appointed the Patriarch of Constantinople Gennadius Scholarius, whom he protected and whose stature he elevated into leader of all the Eastern Orthodox Christians. As emperor of the Romans he laid claim to all Roman territories..." --194.145.161.227 11:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect Tsargrad to Names of Istanbul (formerly Etymology of Istanbul)

(This proposal was first made on Talk:Etymology of Istanbul, together with a proposal to rename Etymology of Istanbul to Names of Istanbul.

Rationale

Most of the content has already been merged, and the redirection has been proposed for a long time, but hasn't been performed apparently due to the resistance of the main contributor to the Tsargrad page (see Talk:Tsargrad. Given the current scope of the "Etymology"/"Names of Istanbul" page as it has now developed, I can see no reason for a separate Tsargrad page. It's not like the Constantinople page, which actually treats a special section of the history of the city itself; rather, it just presents one of the many names and its historical usage. Besides, its spelling alternants Tsarigrad, Czargrad etc. already redirect there and not to the other page, which is confusing to say the least. (this has been changed in the meantime)

Support
  • as proposed by me: Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:20, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support --Macrakis 14:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. —Khoikhoi 04:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, as long as all the info in this article is transferred to the Historic Names of Istanbul article and fitted accordingly. It does seem a bit fishy to have a seperate article for this... Baristarim 03:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Definitely support. Tsargrad has no other meaning, therefore redirecting is perfectly appropriate. Sredni vashtar 19:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose
  • The article Tsargrad is not about the ethymology of Istanbul. Its about the meaning and the ethymology of the word "Tsargrad". And certainly Tsarigrad, Czargrad should redirect to Tsargrad. --Zinoviev 20:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
    • This is why we're proposing to move the page to Names of Istanbul. —Khoikhoi 20:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Exactly, that's why I made the two proposals together. I can understand why people objected to the redirection as long as Etymology of Istanbul was really just what it said it was, but that page has undergone topic drift and has really now become an article dealing with all Names of Istanbul, meaning that it easily comprises the Tsargrad topics. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't know who wrote this article but it should stay where it is. Names of Istanbul is main, general article; Tsargrad contains necessary specifics. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Half of the "specifics" are actually about Istanbul as a geopolitical stake, which has nothing to do with the ethymology of the word Tsargrad. The paragraph "After... ....Crimean War" is totally out of place here, this info should be in the article about Istanbul, the city.Sredni vashtar 19:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Agree with Sredni veshtar. I find it hard to see how the "lost Leviathan" and the "marriage of Ivan III to the heiress of the last Byzantine Emperor" are relevant to the naming issue. This could all be shortened, either on this page or the other. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
      • I think these two comments show why this article can not be part of Names of Istanbul — because Tsargrad is not another name of Istanbul. It is a word that was and is used as a nickname of Constantinople/Istanbul. Any article about a nickname should describe the ethymology of that particular nickname, its perception by people, etc. The objective of the Russian tsars to recapture Tsargrad is part of this perception. --Zinoviev 19:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
  • More detail here than is appropriate there. - CrazyRussian talk/email 17:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Ghirla and CrzRussian. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 18:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The existing article has developed well beyond the point where it needs to be merged with anything else, and it can be expanded even further. Also, as noted above, the material currently covered in Tsargrad does not really fit well with the materials at Names of Istanbul.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Discussion

[edit] IPA

How can you include the pronunciation of a dead language like Old Church Slavonic?? It's mere speculation as nobody really knows how it actually sounded. Xyboi 03:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, well. What do you think we have historical linguistics for? But I agree it's kind of strange to use IPA here, and I'm not sure about how mainstream this transcription is. I'll move it to the talk page until it's sourced. --194.145.161.227 19:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I am a historical linguist. Of course we know things about OCS phonology, but transcriptions as detailed as IPA are nonsense. Xyboi 23:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IPAs to be sourced

"At the same time the historic Slavonic names of the city were Константинь градъ (Old Church Slavonic IPA: [kɔnɯstanɯtinɘ gradɯ]; Church Slavonic IPA: [kɔnstantin grad]) and Константиноградъ (IPA: [kɔnstantinɔgrad])."

--194.145.161.227 20:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

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