Talk:Tsakonian language

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Tsakonian has "Albanian loanwords"---interesting. I want to read more about this. Decius 06:42, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Most of them are shepherding terms, I believe. There is a quote from Pernot that goes something like "The Albanian's influence ends at the shepherd's door," i.e. the importation of vocabulary is limited to certain occupational terminology. There were villages in the area that were settled by Albanian shepherds, with whom the Tsakonians presumably had contact regarding sheep-related matters. --Jpbrenna 02:13, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Candidacy for page move and other issues

  1. The most common name for this language in English is Tsakonian. Tsakonic is much less common, and this page should be moved back to where it was when I started it almost two years ago (my very first Wikipedia edit!), with this page redirecting, instead of the other way around. The present situation is like having the Greek language article at "Hellenic tongue." Sure, it's a much better literal translation of the Greek term, but it would strike an English speaker as rather odd.
  2. The description of Tsakonic as a "Greek dialect" is incorrect (unless you take the minority position; see #4 below). While that is the correct name for it in Greek, and many Greeks think of it as being a dialect, it is actually considered a separate but related language in dialect continuum with Greek, like Flemish with Dutch, or the closely related Spanish and Portuguese. (See Ausbausprache - Abstandsprache - Dachsprache). There are actually three principal dialects of Tsakonian itself, although one (Propontic Tsakonian) is extinct and it seems that one of the other two has all but disappeared. Exact figures are hard to come by, but I believe that Prof. Costakis latest surveys have found there to be 2-5,000 true full native speakers, and many tens of thousands of secondary or tertiary speakers. That contrasts to an estimated 250,000 speakers a century ago. (If we were doing Babel for Tsakonian, we would have lots of TS-1, TS-2 and TS-3's, but relatively few TS-N's.) I would have to check with my friend Dr. Nicholas about this because it may quaiify as Wikipedia:No original research, but I think that the real "Tsaconic dialect" is not the Tsakonian language itself, but the speech of the thousands of Peloponnesians whose parents or grandparents spoke Tsakonian and whose descendants speak a Tsakonian-flavored dialect of Standard Modern Greek.
  3. There is no bibliography here. I thought that the original article had a brief one with Pernot and Costakis' works mentioned. I actually have a copy of Syntomi Grammatiki tis Tsakonikis Dialektou sitting on my shelf here, so I'll put that in right away and add the others later.
  4. Tsakonian is not uncontroversial, and we should note that. While the current consensus seems to be that it is a Hellenic language, there are some scholars around who dispute that classification. Again, while the consensus is that it is Doric-derived with a heavy Attic/Koine adstrate (and a little Albanian, Slavic and Turkish), scholars can be found to dispute this as well. Obviously, if you think that the extent of Doricisms to be found is overstated, you tend to lean less toward it being a separate language, and more toward it being just a dialect of Modern Greek.

--Jpbrenna 16:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move

Oops, good point. --Jpbrenna 19:01, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Voting

  • For. Whether it should be classified as a separate, closely related language is still debated. What is not debatable is that Tsaconic as an adjective is almost non-existent in English, with most scholars calling the tongue Tsakonian, whether they argue that it is a separate Modern Greek language in its own right, or a mere dialect.--Jpbrenna 20:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. --Node

Tsakonic or Tsakonian, is classified as a Greek dialect not only by linguists [1] , but also its native speakers [2], and that's the bottom line. Therefore there is no basis to talk a about a separate language, unless of course you're willing to compare sources. The vote is pointless and it won't help anything. As for changing it back to "Tsakonian", I can't see any reason other than you being eager to satisfy your ego. It's already mentioned that it's also known as "Tsakonian" and the old name has been redirected here. Furthermore the termination -ic is more correct as it derives directly from the Greek "Tsakoniki" and it's less corrupted in translation. As a significant contributor to the articles of the Greek language, I think my opinion counts more than yours on this matter. Miskin 03:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The article name should be the most common English name. Miskin, do you think that Tsakonic is more common? What are your sources for this? Doing a Google search on English pages for: "Tsakonian -Wikipedia" gives 692 hits [3], whereas searching for "Tsakonic -Wikipedia" gives 64 [4], a 10 to 1 ratio in favor of Tsakonian. Paul August ☎ 04:06, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I want it to be moved to Tsakonian language, not Tsakonian (its original title). And as it has been pointed out by me, and now by Paul August, Tsakonian is the most common name in English. Talking about the word being "corrupted" in English is absurd - shall I go over to the Greek Wikipedia and change Αγγλική γλώσσα to Ινγκλίτς or the Γερμανική article to Nτοϊτς? No, that would be crazy, because it's not Greek.
I am willing to compare sources. We can start with the Ethnologue entry updated by Dr. Nick Nicholas. [5]. It is listed there as "not inherently intelligible with Modern Greek", although it notes that Propontis Tsakonian was much closer to Standard Modern Greek. I am not denying that some very knowledgeable people consider it only a dialect, not an entirely separate language - sometimes that merely comes down to how you classify a "dialect." I am saying that the preponderance of sources at present classify it as a separate language.
Where does this woman assert that she is a native speaker? She is a native of Leonidio (which has long since ceased to be a Tsakonian-speaking area) living in Canada, as far as I can tell from her webpage. Nowhere does she make the assertion that she is a native Tsakonian speaker. Neither do I remember her saying that when she made a post to the Yahoo! Tsakonian group asking if anyone there knew of links to Tsakonian music (one would think a native Tsakonian speaker would know where to look - except even they don't sing their songs in Tsakonian anymore!) A very nice lady, very polite in her Internet posts - unlike some people I could mention. What I find really interesting about that link is the part where she aserts that elderly people use Tsakonian as a "code language." Interesting - if the kids can't understand them, then doesn't that tend to support the theory that is a separate language and that Standard Modern Greek & the Modern Greek dialects lack mutual intelligibility with Tsakonian?

--Jpbrenna 08:45, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Your example of Αγγλικά - Ινγκλιτς is out of context because it's comparing two different cases. The English language has a "built-in" way to translate or assimilate Greek words from "-ικη" to "-ic" and "-ικα" to "-ics". Greek doesn't have a similar functionality to deal with "-ish" or "-an" so there you go. Anyway to show how unbiased I am, I really don't have a problem to change the name of the article to anything you like. Everything is redirected at the same place so I really don't see the difference. You can even name it Tsakonian language if you want and make all those edits that don't change anything except your personal satisfaction. What I will not allow you to do however, is to change the article's content by implying a "separate language" status of Tsakonian from Greek, or unlist it from Modern Greek. As for the dialect-language conflict, yes there's a very thin line between the two, this is why we take the best established views. There's also a debatable intelligibility between Tsakonian and standard Modern Greek, but then again partial comprehensibility is the very thing that distincts a dialect from an idiom. If you think that this site is not the representative opinion of a native speaker of Tsakonian, then I can make sure I get you one. I can even gather documented information by people who have a native diglossy between Tsakonian and Greek, and see whether they consider it a seperate language or not. If you think on the other hand that linguists consider it a separate language, then start preparing your sources. The voting system of wikipedia is rediculous, and this case proves it. I can personally guarantee that User:Angr for example (who edited above) has not a slightest clue in the Greek language, and I have saved a couple of articles from his petty vandalism. Now he comes here, posing as an expert, and having the right to vote like any other editor. Miskin 12:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Miskin: The reason that the name matters is because of WP:UE, which says that the most common English name should be used, notwithstanding the fact of redirects. By naming an article, we are implying that that is its most common English name. So do you agree that "Tsakonian" is the most common name in English? (By the way, I see no need to speculate on Jpbrenna's motives for suggesting the name change, and in any case, I see no reason to look further than the motive of wanting the name of the article to conform to WP:UE.) As for the voting issue, generally we try to decide things on Wikipedia by consensus. We generally use voting only to attempt to measure the presence or lack of a consensus. Paul August ☎ 18:38, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
I assumed that since the most common name was also stated, wikipedia's bureaucracy would be satisfied. If it's so evident then you should proceed with the change already. It only strikes as a weird thing to me because I fail to see how can someone make such a big fuss such a unimportant matter. Miskin 22:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I've moved the page and merged the edit histories (since the original "move" was done via a cut and paste, and the previous edit histories were "lost". Paul August ☎ 01:07, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Citations needed

  1. My addition claiming that Tsakonians traditionally did not call themselves Tskanones - it was in one of Dr. Nicholas's papers, with appropriate citation from his source, but I need to dig it up.
  2. It says Tsakonian is officially classified as a dialect. Is this the official position of the Greek government? Who makes this determination, the Vouli or the Ministry of Education or what? I don't dispute the fact that the Greek government considers it a dialect - I'd just like to know the who, what, when, where and how if possible, because I'm curious.--Jpbrenna 19:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Stop accusing the fascist Greek government, it's getting monotonous already. Tsakonian being a Greek dialect is not another Greek government evil scheme, it actually exists in both Greek and neutral linguistic sources. See Robert Browning's "Medieval and Modern Greek", among many others. Miskin 23:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minority position

I think the title of this page is misleading since it advocates a minority position. Tsakonian is a variety of the Greek language, not a separate language. I think the page should be renamed to Tsakonian, Tsakonian Greek, Tsakonian dialect, Tsakonian (Greek) or another possible variation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Demonax (talk • contribs).

Hi Demonax, thanks for your comments, and welcome. As you can see from the talkpage above, there has been quite a bit of discussion about these names. I would personally go simply for Tsakonian, in fact, but as there were several well-respected fellow editors who had different preferences, I wouldn't unilaterally force a change at this point. There are quite a number of articles in Wikipedia that have "...language" in the title without necessarily implying separate language - take it just like this: a dialect is a language too, the word in the title just serves to disambiguate from "Tsakonian people", "Tsakonian culture", or whatever. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I realize that, I also see a Pontic language and a Griko language. If the article is to retain its present title, then the article should make it very clear that we are talking about a dialect, not an independent language.

Fair enough. But the current text "... is a dialect of Greek" in the lead sentence is already pretty clear, isn't it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
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