Talk:Troy

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[edit] episode of BBC's "Horizon"

Does anyone want to have a go at writing up some of the current theories summarised in a recent edition of the BBC's Horizon programme? A transcript is available online here [1]

Another page in their site even links to this very article! Timrollpickering 23:13, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] alleged/suspected/hypothesized/proposed Troy

In the light of the findings since 1996, this article is far too cautious about identifying archaeological with homeric Troy. Of course the "identity" is not complete, not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and the controversy should be noted. Since 1996, however, a strong majority of scholars identify (W)ilion and Wilusha, and for very good reasons. I will try to add sections concerning these recent developments. dab 18:42, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Opening doesn't make much sense

The opening of the article, "Troy (...) is not a legendary city, scene of the Trojan war" doesn't make much sense. Is that supposed to say "is a legendary city"? ~~

fixed it (it was vandalism. you can fix these things yourself, too) dab (ᛏ) 12:57, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Real Location of Troy

There is a very intersting theory that has its roots in geography and archeology, and puts Troy much closer to Greece... Check it out at: http://www.troya.com.mx/. The book was published in Croatian, and it is by no means a work of an amateur, R. Salinas Price is a scholar educated in the United States, more on his study on Homer at: http://www.homer.com.mx/index.html

Yugoslav Troy? Well, feel free to add it as an intriguing 'dissenting voice.' No "the real location"-style statements in the article, though, please. dab (ᛏ) 09:08, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to not mention that garbage at all in the article, also. Alexander 007 07:43, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Patton 117 reporting in, p[lease feel free to see the discussion below about how it was in England. go to the link before you bash it please.

[edit] Wrong Category

Ancient Troy was not exactly a Greek city, so I've modified the category to Trojans. Alexander 007 05:59, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

well, everybody speaks Greek in Homer. Plus, there is some evidence that there may have been a Greek upper-class that had imposed itself on the Luwian population, in Wilusa. But it's difficult to classify anything as "Greek" in that time anyway, there were only "Achaean" and "Danaans" etc. dab (ᛏ) 10:07, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Patton 117 here, Homer's story was about a celtic civil war, and was translated into greek so that the people he was telling the story to the greeks

see Alaksandu where I did a brief outline of said evidence. dab (ᛏ) 07:18, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Troy in England

Well it was written by the greeks from Homer's original versiopn which was translated from his native celtic tounge to greek

Has anyone ever read Iman Wilkins book where troy once stood, in it he describes why Troy would have been a Celtic City, and how the Aecheans, which means seamen, where warriors from central europe who banded together to capture the british celts tin mines so that the mainland europena Celts could make bronze at a cheaper price. the following link will lead you to the site http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/

a typical case of pseudohistory. dab (ᛏ) 16:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

If you read it, the invaders are described as travelling over a wine dark sea called Oceanus. The Greeks would have called it the Ægean sea, which is a deep blue color as compared to the Northern Atlantic which is often described as being wine dark

Also, Achilles is noted as watching the sun rise over the sea and his barracks. Which means that an Asian landing site is out of the question which would put the shores on the west.

Achean is also a greek version of a CELTIC word that means Water Men There are seven rivers flowing across the Troad. there is also an eighth river called the Temese, which was the name for the Thames untill the 850's AD. the turkish plain has two rivers.

I would like to take the claim for creating this discussion, as i was not supposed to be working on this at the time due to the fact that i am taking a computer Apps class at this time. Patton 117

again, this is so far out on the lunatic fringe that it's not worth refuting. At most, if you must, insert a single sentence saying somebody came up with the idea. For anything more, create a subarticle dedicated to the theory. dab (ᛏ) 07:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

You remind me of the lunatic conservaties who say that Harry Potter is evil, and have never even read it. I, Patton 117, am a conservative who reads the books by the way.

I have read it, and it's not remotely believable. James 23:15, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Why not, i have read both the Iliad and Iman Wilkins book, and find it meshes

Mainly because it's based on questionable etymologies. James 04:31, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

So how do you explain the fact that Achiles was able to watch the sun rise over both the ocean and the soldiers barracks. Also, I forgot to mention this, but greeks for centuries back have been of average height, average, complexion, with brown hair and brown eyes. Agamemnon is blond, as is Achiles. Traits that resemble the Celts more than the Greeks.

The Iliad is an oral poem, and as such inconsitencies and errors crept in over the several hundred years during which it was composed. Also, the person who "wrote" it was likely not there, so they would have no real idea on which side of Troy the camp was. Also, there's no concrete proof about what Greeks looked like over the centuries. Furthermore, there's nothing to suggest that blonde in the Iliad is the same thing as blonde today. James 05:09, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

what? I'm not saying anything is "evil". I am saying it is stupid. Nobody claims Harry Potter is a factual report. If you claim that this England business is fiction then no problem. The arguments are crap, man. Take a good look at the map of the Troas. See the bay? Is that a north-to-south coast facing west? I thought so. dab (ᛏ) 06:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Enlarge

Have a look at that map. The poem, in spite of being oral, contains exact knowledge of Greece and Anatolia. Now take a list at Trojan_War#Armies_on_the_Trojan_side. These are all historical peoples of Anatolia. What were the Phrygians doing in England? The Carians? The Lycians? etc.?? You may as well claim that the Greeks were really Eskimos invading the Aztecs. The theory is too kooky even to waste breath on it, sorry. Read some serious books about Troy. You seem to have no idea what is possible when kooks play with etymologies. Everything suddenly is Basque, or Sumerian, or Slavic, or Celtic. That's because these people have no method, something everybody else has been adopting for 400 years now, since Descartes. Sorry, but we do not have the time to educate whoever believes in such things about the 400 years they missed, short of saying, read it up. dab (ᛏ) 06:54, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Egypt is refrenced as not wanting to go to war with the Trojans, however, texts from egypt show that before Alexander, it was known by its people as Al-Kheb, which means, land of the Pharoahs.

Greek Women stayed home, same with the women of the cultures around turkey at the time. Saxon, Celtic and many other women of the north went to war with their husbands. Homer tells of Amazones, who speak some of the multitude of languagesspoken within Iliums Earthen Walls.

Patton 117, back again, I was watching the History Channel, and they where doing a show on Crypto Zoology, creatures with very little scientific proof that they exist, and thus disregarded. I would like to point out that the Mountain Gorilla, the Giant Squid, The Ceolcanth, and many more animals where thought to not exist, but as we know, all three have been proven to exist. So just because some one dissents from the majority doesn't mean he is wrong. Where would the world be if the Free French Military and the German Resistance, both of whom desented from the Nazi Parties in their countries, just agreed with their government durinmg WWII, it can be argued that the attempt on Hitler's life during the later part of World War II brought about the Allied Victory even sooner.

You can't just dismiss this theory so easily if you haven't even read the book. I can assure you it makes a hell of a lot more sense than Troy being in eastern europe. Iman Wilkins covers almost every aspect of the poems, from the vegetation and climate to the places where the regiments came from. I'm not asking you to believe it, but read the book first before being so skeptical.

You can't just dismiss the consensus that Troy is in Turkey if you haven't even read the massive body of evidence that this view is based on. Not just the Iliad, but ancient Greek geographers like Strabo, the Hittite texts that mention Wilusa and the Ahhiyawa, and the reports of modern archaeologists like Blegen and Korfmann. I can assure you it makes a hell of a lot more sense that Troy is in Asia Minor than in eastern Europe or England. Classicists have covered almost every aspect of the poems, from the vegetation and climate to the places where the "regiments" came from. I'm not asking you to believe it, but get at least a passing familiarity with the evidence before being so skeptical. One place to start is J.V. Luce's book Celebrating Homer's Landscapes, which exhaustively demonstrates how Homer's descriptions of the Troad and Ithaca reflect accurate geographic knowledge of both places.
Also, you might want to stop making elementary errors if you really want to defend Wilkins' "theory." Don't tell us that the Achaeans sail over "Oceanus." They don't come close to it. Don't tell us that Troy is in "eastern europe" when it's in Turkey. That's in Asia, which is a different continent, you know. Don't refer to "regiments," talk about the "Catalog of Ships," the standard way of referring to the list of Greek contingents in Book 2.
If you'd really like to convince us, instead of going on and on about how we're close-minded, try presenting some of Wilkins' arguments--in detail. Why don't you start with how he deals with the Hittite letters? Akhilleus 20:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the notion that ancient nations and societies were limited geographically to such small areas is rediculous. Most of Europe spoke Greek, including druids all the way in Ireland, because Greek influence and knowledge had spread much further than Greece. Conquest is not the only thing that spreads culture. Everyone in ancient Europe, regardless of their tribe or nationality, was effected by the Greeks substantially. The druids of Britannia would not have spoke Greek if they had not thought it an important language. Homer's epic clearly spanded across a much larger geography than merely a couple of seas in the Mediterranean, a geography that includes Egypt and Britannia. After all, did the Greeks not prove the world was round and approximately how large it was?

Look at America today. Geographically it is small, and anyone 2000 years from now that finds an intact map will conclude that America was just one of many nations. However, the reality is that America has military bases all of the world, but there is very little that will survive 2000 years from now to prove how powerful a nation America is today. Likewise, the Perians had farflung power all the way into central Europe, but had obviously not conquered Europe. The Franks imported an elephant for the king once, but does that mean that the Franks had to conquer India, or that the Indians had conquered the Franks.

The point is, everyone that was anyone in the ancient world knew of Britannia and its famous tin mines. There is no more evidence to prove that Troy on was England than in Turkey, but scholarly dogma and academic zealots in the name of "concensus" mislead the public all the time for their own ambitions or politcal agendas, which, after all, is human nature. Too many professors are too deeply rooted in Troy-in-Turkey to ever concede to other opinions, no matter how well-researched those opinions may be. There are 7000 year old conical pyramids in the Americas that historians refuse to acknowledge as any older than 2000 yrs, despite those pyramids being enshrouded in lava rock that is dated exactly 7000 years. (I read about this years ago, no online sources to report as yet.)

Troy in England does have some merit, and to simply dismiss it as fantasy is disgraceful to the discovery process. The Celts have legends of visits to Egypt, used as mercenaries by pharaohs, and whom helped to build Karnak. They even have legends of meeting Moses himself. They both certainly had a love of beer. The Britons used chariots, and Boadicea herself refered to Nitocris and Semiramis, the names of Eastern rulers far, far away from Britain. And, for crying out loud, they used chariots! When something is still a theory, as Troy being in Turkey still is, all researched opinions must be considered to find whatever facts can be found. That's how knowledge is acquired, not by saying "Impossible! The consesus is ..." Well, the consesus may be wrong, as has often proven to be the case.

As far as history is concerned, it's mostly speculation and heresay anyway. No one can claim that the Achaeans never were even close to Oceanus. Where you there? Did you attend Achaean bonfire parties and mingle with the natives? Did someone build a time-machine? Well, if the Polynesians could find Easter Island, the Achaeans could find Britannia. Jcchat66 21:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of Troy, Troy and Aeoleans

Is possible that the Trojans of Homer were Aeoleans (a Greek tribe)?

Etymologically, the words Ilion, Ilus, Iliad, Aeolians, Aeolus, Hellenes, Helle, Hellespont are having the same origin/root.

Later, in 9th , 8th , 7th centuries B.C., Aeolians founded colonies in north-western Asia Minor (or Anatolia). Why not, plus, in 14th or 13th century B.C., when they were drove out of Thessaly by Achaeans etc?

In Homer's Iliad Greeks and Tojans communicated without interpreters.

In Iliad, instead, Carians (a people in south-eastern Anatolia) described as "hetero-glosi" (i.e. people of other language)".

So, perhaps, original Trojans were Teucrians (i.e. Thracians) and in 13th century B.C., when Troy was captured by Aeolians, then its name was changed to "Aeolium" (ie. Ilium = Ilion). Parallely with city-state, the neighbouring channel was named "Hellespont".

So, in Trojan War era, i.e. in 12th century, the city had two names ("Troy", of Thracian origin and Ilium, of Graeco-Aeolian origin).

--Ionn-Korr 16:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

If we are into etymologies, someone has proposed a connection with Basque hiri/uri ("city"/"town"), Iruñea (Pamplona) and Ilunberri (Lumbier, "new Ilun", "new capital?"))
Is there connection in Hellenes, Helen, Selene?
--Error 00:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
If these theories are accepted by serious scholars, that should be reported here -- with full bibliographic information. Even if they are widespread beliefs, they probably should be reported here (with information to help the reader judge their value). But Wikipedia is not a good place to discuss novel or speculative theories. --Macrakis 01:29, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
To Macrakis.
I saw your page. You are a Greek. I'm glad for it. Greeks are here, there and everywhere! Greetings for you, "sympatriotis". --IonnKorr 18:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
From Helen:
the name may then be from a PIE root *sel "to elope" and go back to a Proto-Indo-European abduction myth. The name is in any case unrelated to Hellenes, as is sometimes claimed (Hellenes being from the root *sed "settle").
--Error 00:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
To Error.
Surely, your proposal (or your viewpoint) is respectable. But, "Hellenes being from root *sed" is an extreme case. Perhaps, it's a atribraty conclusion.
This IE-root may be *hel-, or *el-, or *sel-, [or even *wel- (according to my opinion)], but not *sed-.
--IonnKorr 20:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
what do you mean? Hellenes is from *sedlenes "settlers", that's entirely unproblematical and about the only serious etymology listed on this page. And no, Helene is unrelated. I am responsible for Helen_of_Troy#Etymology. The sel- etymology (and the Saranyu connection) is debatable, but a serious and published possibility, but of course without the certainty of the sedlenes etymology of Hellenes. dab (ᛏ) 14:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Please keep your opinion out of this. Original Research has no place in wikipedia. Stick to information from citable references. --Victim of signature fascism 19:03, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what's up with the changes between User:Decius and User:Alexander007 (who appear to be the same person), but I do know that Wikipedia frowns on removal of other users' comments except in cases of libel or abuse. You are right that original research has no place on Wikipedia. Neither does rudeness or attempted censorship. We can all decide the value of a comment on our own. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] a "pellasgian" theory

My five cents:

Bekim Bacaj

If you read, than do it more carefully. The whole book of R.S.Price is based on the same reading error. His error question:"How could one see the arising sun from the Ocean if situated in Troy?"

1st Let us first clear this error. The Ocean is not an ocean. It's a Snake!

2nd Homer is not greek, -he is pellasgian Priest and a distant relative to Achiles.

3rd and the most repeated error throughuot the literal history, -there were no greeks during the Trojan War era.


I Ocean is a mythical snake (pellasgian mythology), it's not an ocean, its a river. The hypothetical river that encompases the whole world, = the edge of the world. The snake that bites its own tail. So the sun according to pellasgian mythology rises from the Ocean river and olso sets down on it.

II Homer was a pellasgian, his wocabulary and his beliefs are pellasgian, Achiles was a pellasgian too. Whole Iliad is focused only in the part where Achiles is the main actor. So nothing else matters to the author except of his relative and his compatriot antagonist Hector.

III It was pelasgians that were known as Helens and it was them who named the land (H)ellada. Greeks enter the Hellen mainland only after the destruction of Troy that is the center of the world civilisation destruction and the begginings of a "greek dark ages". It was almost the same duration period as of our dark ages. More than 7 centuries. No written materials exist douring this peroid. It took seven centuries for greeks to come out of the darknes and aquire whatever was saved from this destruction. The interest for adopting and cultivating pre greek culture was driven by the Persian kingdom rise and their warfares. It was only a question of time when persian army will attack the greek city states. So they begin cultivating history and pregreek cultural remnants of Hellen mainlands adopting them as their own and for their purpose. Only then the story of Trojan War has come to life again. So it was a Political and moral reason. It was adopted and revised. It recieved more critics than any other written piece today by homerians. But that didn't stop it. They had to convince the people that they won a war against this mighty land once and that they can do it again. They achieved it. Today we only have a reforged story of Homer about Iliad and an incomplete one. Yet again, it's a remarkable one.

Thank You!


I'm with you as far as The whole book of R.S.Price is based on the same reading error. His error question:"How could one see the arising sun from the Ocean if situated in Troy?". That's entirely true of course. dab (ᛏ) 09:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notability of Wilkens, Velikovsky, et al.

Wilkens and Velikovsky are not notable, in my opinion. They don't belong in the article, nor do any other "alternative" location theories. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree — however, given the nature of Wikipedia, should we have a short sentence acknowledging that a few cranks opinionated individuals do argue for alternative locations, but are roundly dismissed by academic scholars? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

That would be prudent, considering the wide range of Wikipedia's audience. --Akhilleus (talk) 07:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it should be included, given the nature of Wikipedia. --Siva1979Talk to me 20:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says, "A small minority of contemporary scholars argue that Homeric Troy was not in Anatolia, but located elsewhere: England, Croatia, and Scandinavia have been proposed. These theories have not been accepted by mainstream scholars." I think that's sufficient — do you disagree? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Troy and England

No, I'm not talking about Wilkins' crackpot theory. I'm talking about this text that I'm removing from the article:

A Trojan law mentioned by E.O. Gordon allowed queens as well as kings. This law was adopted by King Dunvallo Molmutius (from Brutus) in his code and is still in effect today in Britain.

This is inadequately sourced, and it was in the wrong place in the article. But there's certainly room on Wikipedia for the legendary connections between the Trojan kings and the kings of England. As long as we make it clear that there's no historical basis for this connection. So, if someone can provide some good sources for this material, let's put it in. --Akhilleus (talk) 07:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

the thing is mentioned on British Israelism, but I don't know if it has its proper article. We should discuss it in the context of the Aeneid, maybe add a "later legends" section. dab (ᛏ) 09:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pro-Wilkens enthusiasm

User:212.123.163.102 left multiple copies of the following comments all over the page. In the interest of not silencing anyone, I'm going to consolidate them and put them here:

You are all wrong! Iman Wilkens is right on the money, Celts and troy are english, and the locations that Wilkens has described in his book, are almost spot on, some minor variations, but almost a perfect deduction of the real truth of troy.
Why do I say this? how do I come to this conclusion?
I have been a Royal Navy Diver most of my Adult life, and have been on salvage operations and deep sea dives all around the world, and always liked to read books by other like minded of the diving fraternity as a way of passing time when on board ship etc.
After reading Cusslers book, I was intrigued enough to convince a friend who is also an ex navy diver, to go and follow the trail described in Iman Wilkens book.
Its taken us over 2 years of research and diving, but we have located artifacts and evidence that prooves beyond doubt, that what Wilkens has written, is in fact, a very good account of the real Troy and the voyages.
Troy was in England, not Turkey or Croatia or anywhere else, and the Greeks are pretenders to the titles given by historians.
We have enough evidence now, and shall soon be approaching media and other interested parties, to announce these findings.
What we have discovered will blow the history books into confusion, and will make the Da Vinci Code look like a childs story book!
keep your eyes on the press!
regards
loz and mike —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.123.163.102 (talk • contribs) .
Re:Questionable etymologies?
Homer catalog of ships and western europe a.d. 2006
Denmark: graea, now graerup; hyle, now hyllebjerg; thisbe, now thisted; arne, now arna; scandeia, now skanderborg; nisa, now nissum;
France: orneia, now orne; corinthe, now courances (corintia in middle-ages!); cleonae, now cleon; gonoëssa, now gonesse; helice, now elyseé; thronium, now trugny (trun in 1059); tiryns, now thury-harcourt (tirins in middle-ages!); hermione, now hermanville; river aurus, now aure; hyampolis, now Janville (hiemivilla in 1130); aetole, now etaules; pleuron, now ploëron; nile, now -nil (for example: mesnil);
Alsace: cyllene, now selé(stat); rhipa, ribeauville; stratia, now strasbourg; parrhasia, now barr;
Spain: pylos, now pilas; gerenia, now gerena; sparta, now esparteros; sidon, now medina sidonia; ortygia, now ortigueira;
Low countries: thessalia, now tessel; alos, now alost; boudeion, now boudinkerke; phulake, now flakkee; pyrasos, now braassem; iton, now etten; antron (near the sea), now antwerp; calydne, now calland; sume, now sumar;
Great Britain: adrasteia, now ardrossan; percote, now perth; practius, now pratis; axius, now axe; cromna, now cromarty; aegialus, now aigas; erythini, now ericht; halizones, now halezy; halube, now halabezack; maeones, now meon; hyde, now hyden hill; temese, now thames (temes in middle-ages); kaystrios, now caister; rhesos, now rhee; karesos, now car dike; grenikos, now granta; skamandros, now cam; simoeis, now great ouse; satnioeis, now little ouse; tenedos, isle of thanet (tanatus in ancient latin); lecton, now lexden; chryse, now grays, cray and crayford; cilla, now chilham; "silver bow", now the bow and silvertown; ilion, now ely. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.123.163.102 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Troy a Minoan city?

Troy is settled from about 3000 BC. The Trojan War is apperently 1180s BC when Myceanian Greeks attack the Trojans. The argument is that the "Trojan Greeks" appearently has the hegemony of local trade in this region. At East the Hittie Empire flourish but apperently they live in peace with Trojans.

The Minoan Civilization dissapear as the Myceanian Civilization emerge. However, the distinction is only beteen the island greeks and mainland greeks who has a lot of the same culture, in which the myceanians are controlled by the Minoans. Could it be the case that Trojans were apart of the Minoan Trade Federation, and as Myceanians conquered Crete after it has disasters and Santorini was destroyed by vulvano Thera leading to the dissaperence of the Minoans, the Mainland Greeks either assimilated or exterminated any opposition from Minoans.

As it would seem Troy may have been a Minoan City part of the Minoan Trade Federation. Once the Minoan Civilization collapse and falls into the hands of the mainland Greeks who takes control over the trade in the Ageanian Region, then Trojans still constitutes an obstical as they threathen mainland Greek trade supremacy, enforcing tolls etc on the Greek Traders. Agamenon needs to finish of the Trojans in order to wipe out the last Minoans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.165.42.243 (talk • contribs) 13:45, September 13, 2006 (UTC)

This is an interesting suggestion, but if you want any of this to be included in the article you're going to have to provide a reliable source. Otherwise it's original research, which is forbidden on Wikipedia. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that no Linear A (Minoan) inscriptions have ever been found in Troy. There is no evidence that Troy was a Minoan settlement. Darkmind1970 11:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
That's right. The only prehistoric writing so far found at Troy is a seal in Luwian. See Trojan language. Andrew Dalby 17:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coordinates of Troy Archeological Site

Does anybody have a reference for the (very inexact) coordinates of (39°58′N 26°13′E)? I'm asking because I've checked those coordinates in Google Earth, but nothing there looks like Troy. But nearby there's a very blurry spot that resembles Troy at (39°57′24″N, 26°14′20″E). I don't think the coordinates listed in the article are right. -- MiguelMunoz 19:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you to whoever corrected the coordinates on the site. They now appear to be correct. -- MiguelMunoz 21:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World Heritage Logo

The World Heritage logo is the first thing in the article - it should be moved somewhere more discreet. Patiwat 11:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Moonraker88 12:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
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