Talk:Tropical cyclone scales

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[edit] Merge?

Unless this can be expanded it should just be merged into tropical cyclone, which probably has all the relevant information already anyway. — jdorje (talk) 17:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Merged out of the article now. Tito xd^{(?!? - help us)} 04:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be merged into the Tropical cyclone scales, since it is a main article from a category of tropical cyclone, which specifically discusses the storm scales such as super typhoon. The article Tropical cyclone only has a brief description of the scales and links to the main scales article. Mtmelendez 13:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we should merge the catgories into the Hurricane Page as well

[edit] New table

Tropical Cyclone Classifications
Beaufort scale	10-minute sustained winds (knots)	N Indian Ocean IMD	SW Indian Ocean MF	Australia BOM	SW Pacific FMS	NW Pacific JMA	NW Pacific JTWC	NE Pacific & N Atlantic NHC & CPHC
0-6	<28	Depression	Tropical Depression	Tropical Low	Tropical Depression	Tropical Depression	Tropical Depression	Tropical Depression
7	28-29	Deep Depression					Tropical Depression	Tropical Depression
7	30-33	Deep Depression					Tropical Storm	Tropical Storm
8-9	34-47	Cyclonic Storm	Moderate Tropical Storm	Tropical Cyclone (1)	Tropical Cyclone	Tropical Storm
10	48-55	Severe Cyclonic Storm	Severe Tropical Storm	Tropical Cyclone (2)		Severe Tropical Storm
11	56-63	Severe Cyclonic Storm	Severe Tropical Storm	Tropical Cyclone (2)		Severe Tropical Storm	Typhoon	Hurricane (1)
12	64-72	Very Severe Cyclonic Storm	Tropical Cyclone	Severe Tropical Cyclone (3)		Typhoon		Hurricane (1)
	73-85			Severe Tropical Cyclone (3)				Hurricane (2)
	86-89			Severe Tropical Cyclone (4)				Hurricane (3)
	90-99		Intense Tropical Cyclone					Hurricane (3)
	100-106							Hurricane (4)
	107-114			Severe Tropical Cyclone (5)
	115-119		Very Intense Tropical Cyclone				Super Typhoon
	120	Super Cyclonic Storm	Very Intense Tropical Cyclone				Super Typhoon	Hurricane (5)

I've created this table to try and more neutrally represent things. I've added the SSHS coloration to the NHC table, which is why it is at the far right. The US 1-min speeds have been converted using a 14% reduction factor which seems standard; see the discussion on Talk:2003 Pacific typhoon season. It may be an idea to incorporate the Beaufort Scale into this table as well. What do people think?--Nilfanion (talk) 12:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It looks good, and I think including the Beaufort Scale would also be a good idea. Also, since we use the SSHS colors for the Australian scale where it appears on Wikipedia, we could use them in this table as well. —Cuivi é nen 01:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually we use the color for the SSHS category of Australian storms, see how Cyclone Larry does it. We could just color in the whole table with the SSHS colors (split typhoon up for instance) but that would lose the clarity and look hideous. I've added the Beaufort scale now too (without that articles colors it would overwhelm IMO).--Nilfanion (talk) 08:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

And we could split up the windspeed like Beaufort scale does it, so we have knots, km/h and mph all listed.--Nilfanion (talk) 09:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Here brings up an issue I had never even thought about until I found it: how do you measure gusts? Do you use 1-second, 3-seconds, or apply a factor to the sustained winds? Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

IIRC there isn't that much difference between a 1 and 3 second averaging time (can't remember where I saw that) and I there is no simple relation between gusts and sustained winds (hence the edit war on Cyclone Larry). As for the relation of the Aus scale to the SS scale the Dvorak table at the bottom here is probably the best sign that the above table is valid - DT is how most storms are measured, its only the Atlantic and landfalling storms which get better treatment. I wonder if we should remove the actual windspeeds from the above table completely, as it compares to the Beaufort and SS scales it gives all the info someone would need to compare the scales, without a complicated explanation of the 10-min thing.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

What about PAGASA? Do they use a similar scale to JTWC, or to JMA, or do they have their own system? I remember that they called Bilis a typhoon when everyone else called it an TS/STS. Also, we should probably drop coloring for the SSHS if we're not using for anything else since IMO it draws too much attention to the US scale, making it seem somehow more important. I've also added specifications for where the NHC and JTWC cover. —Cuivi é nen 02:34, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes the color does unbalance the table, the colors should be introduced on the section on the SSHS. I think, though I can't remember the source, that PAGASA uses 1-minute winds, probably due to the US influences in the country. Here's a PAGASA source on their scale. The only reason for mentioning the JTWC is that it was official in the NW Pacific, so older typhoon articles should use its data.

I've also redone the headers so the regions mention the RSMC for the basin. That means there is a redlink. I'm not sure if I have got the initialisms completely correct.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The last two columns seem very off on the conversions. For example, look at Damrey [1]. MSW at 10-minute average is 90 knots and at 1-minute average is 155 knots. It should be considered a Super Typhoon by the JTWC, but it doesn't meet the criteria. There are lots of other examples. Good kitty 21:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Nope the last column is correct. There is a standard ~15% conversion factor between the windspeeds in the literature. The problem is the JTWC disagrees with the RSMCs a lot of the time, when Damrey was at its peak it was 930 hPa/90 kt according to the JMA but according to the JTWC it was 155 kt which corresponds to 879 mbar according to the Atkinson-Holiday table in Dvorak technique.--Nilf anion (talk) 22:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)