Talk:Triskelion

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Contents 1 Triskelion definition 2 Amphora image 3 Mediterranean (legs) vs. Celtic/Germanic (spirals) 4 images 5 the vase 6 Breton triskelion? 7 Direction of this article 8 Mention clathrin? 9 Breton Triskelion 2 10 Norse drinking horn triskelion 10.1 Added pic 11 Angels and demons 12 Duplication 12.1 BDSM Triskelion 13 Political use 14 Hephaestus' tables

[edit] Triskelion definition

afaik, a "triskelion" is:

1. three spirals or whorls interlocked
2. as a special case, and more recently, the three legs of Manx

the article has it the other way round. dab 22:28, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That's my fault. I'll keep my fingers off it, if you'll fix it. (Any further references?) --Wetman 23:20, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure now. A google search seems to support my assumption. I attempted a generalisation, although "cyclic group C3" may be going too far. Feel free to interfere again (this is no 'pet article' of mine, I just happened to stumble accross it). dab 09:40, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

We had just put up an article in the Sicilian wikipedia on the Trisceli, when I stumbled across your excellent piece. As a primary reference, I was going to use the address of a certain John Newton, delivered well over 100 years ago, that argues rather convincingly that the Isle of Man Tre Cassyn is not recorded prior to 1266, and explains how it got there from Sicily. All the dates stack up and I cannot fault the analysis. This is the site if you wish to check it out - [1] - I have come across at least one other Isle of Man official site that accepts this account without qualification. On the other hand, most others put forward the theory that it was there since Viking days, and that it ended up in Sicily via the Normans - but that is clearly impossible, since it has been used in Sicily continuously for 2,500 years. That is the version we have in our account. It's here at scn:Trisceli but you will find an english version of the article in the talk page - I was saving it up there to put onto en:wiki, but I won't now that I have found it is sufficiently covered. However, there are some noteworthy elements in the sicilian article that you may wish to incorporate. Cheers and salutamu - --pippudoz 11:09, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Excellent article by Newton, now among External links, though I haven't used it yet to revise this entry; I made the Sicilianu Wiki connection too. Thanks! --Wetman 13:37, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I see that I may have introduced inaccuracies :( We need to mention the 1266 connection. My understanding is that there was the classical/mediterranean "Triskele", which indeed consisted of three human legs, and all along there was the celtic/germanic Valknut or similar, and in the case of the Isle of Man, the two became associated, viz., the celtic symbol was morphed into the mediterranean one. This should all be made more clear here, I am afraid I muddled the points because I didn't understand them correctly. (cool, I didn't even know there was scn: [[User:Dbachmann|dab (T) ]] 14:00, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Newton's essential point is that Alexander III of Scotland introduced the triskele to the Isle of Man when it fell to him in 1266. Alexander's mother, a Norman-French princess, married for her second husband the son of the crusader king of Jerusalem. Sicily was no longer Norman, but until quite recently Hohenstaufen. Cultural connections don't have to be looked for in the Bronze Age after all. :o) --Wetman 15:08, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the incredibly quick response! Scn:wiki is only two months old, so we're very new and still learning. While we are interested in all things Sicilian, we do wish to become a proper online encyclopedia, and that means getting a lot closer to your more comprehensive article than where we are at the moment. Once you have updated, I will talk with my colleagues about incorporating most of your info, because which ever way you look at it, the triskelion has a prehistoric pedigree, and our version is missing that perspective altogether. As a final point, seeing that so few sites have this subject (and the fact that it is utterly fascinating - who would ever have dreamed of a connection between two small distant islands from opposite ends of Europe!) - would you be interested in a joint nomination for Translation of the Week on metaWiki? Cheers and salutamu - --pippudoz 00:59, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

well, yes; what I am uncertain of at this point is whether or not 'triskelion' or 'triskele' is properly applied to symbols not consisting of human legs. I can only say:

• I have heard Viking Age valknuts being referred to as 'triskeles' in university lectures
• On a visit to the Isle of man, I have been told that the 'sicilian version' replaced/was based on such a germanic 'triskele' (which doesn't contradict the 1266 story, it just gives additional motivation to Alexander's move).

[[User:Dbachmann|dab (T) ]] 07:41, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Amphora image

I found this image of a black-figure amphora. Unfortunately, I don't know any details of the piece (attic? 4th century?). Also, the image of the entire vessel may be copyrighted, but the cropped image should go under {{PD-art}}.

[edit] Mediterranean (legs) vs. Celtic/Germanic (spirals)

See also Spanish use: es:Imagen:Triskel.png. I added a section "spirally triskelion", for lack of a better term, and to remove the Spanish bit from the Manx section. We still mention Newgrange twice; the celtic parts should be conflated, somehow.

Asatru:Which is odd, as Ásatrú is Nordic not Celtic. : not necessarily; it seems the Celts and Germans were confused about which was which themselves in Tacitus' time. There may be germanic versions. see the logo at http://www.odinic-rite.org/ (yeah, not a premier resource, I know).

As for the Bretagne symbol, I googled that somewhere, but I have yet to see the actual symbol (the symbols on the flag of the Bretagne are different)

[[User:Dbachmann|dab (T) ]] 08:21, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] images

not very important, but I liked the plain symbol better next to the intro (as opposed to the complicated Achilles-Hector image). the amphora itself is not fragmentary, I just cropped the image. [[User:Dbachmann|dab (T) ]] 12:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] the vase

I was able to identify the vase now, and the origin of the image: [2]

Boston 63.473: Main panel: Achilles dragging Hektor past the tomb of Patroklos

Courtesy, Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. William Francis Warden Fund

see also [3]: lots of sicilian coins, and 4 black-figure vases. this one [4] is nice, too. dab (ᛏ) 11:44, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Breton triskelion?

Quote: A triskelion is the symbol of the Bretagne (sic)

What evidence is there that the triskelion is, or has ever been, a Breton symbol? -- /Picapica 17:41, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Direction of this article

An article like this one is always great for providing us all with a slightly different point of reference for illustrating in real terms what POV might mean. Being one of the founders of scn.wiki, I don't really feel I can make any changes because I would immediately be labelled as POV. All I can say is this: only one place on Earth is positively known to have used this symbol continuously for over 2,500 years, yet most of the article and talk pages appear to be more intent on coming up with different spirally variants, uses in popular culture and discussions of uncertain misty nordic, germanic and celtic origins (because of course it is absolutely inconceivable that these higher races could ever be influenced by anything emanating from the mediterranean). My experience of wikipedia is that this is soooo typical! As always, those most capable of inflicting the greatest harm on the human race are the ones who get to write the "correct" history and decide what POV does and doesn't mean. NPOV indeed! --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:39, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mention clathrin?

The context in which I have actually encountered the word triskelion is as a trimer of clathrin molecules. Should that be mentioned in this article? dsws 01:24, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it certainly should. Be sure to describe the molecular configuration that led to this extension of triskelion. --Wetman 10:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Breton Triskelion 2

I note that someone asked about the Breton Triskelion above to which no one had an answer. This is what is near the start of this article: A triskelion is the symbol of Brittany, of Sicily and of the Isle of Man... If you check out the article on Brittany, there is zero reference to the Triskelion, it is not on their coat of arms, nor their flag, nor seemingly anywhere else. If someone cannot show me evidence of the Triskelion being the symbol of Brittany I am going to delete it, and then I might work on bringing some sanity back to the article focussing on those people that do use it as their symbol, have done so for centuries (or millenia in the case of the Sicilians, which the historical records actually prove), and reduce the percentage of the article dedicated to sheer whimsy. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:06, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not an official emblem, but it was used by Celtic revivalist culture groups there, apparently (have no idea if it still is). Please don't change this article into a petty nationalist thing. AnonMoos 02:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Someone asked whether it was true that the triskelion was the national emblem of Brittany, but no one answered. I went looking through all the articles about Brittany and all things Breton and couldn't find it, so I am backing up the first person, why is it in here when they themselves do not refer to it. Also, I favour, where at all possible, articles being backed up by hard cold facts and evidence. We know that the triskelion has been used in Sicily for about 2,500 years on a continuous basis, don't take my word for it, look into it yourself. We know that it has been used continuously in the Isle of Man for at least 750 years (maybe longer, but that is a bit more difficult to attest). As to all these other connections - we appear to have zero detail/evidence - just a lot of supposition, wishful thinking, daydreaming, etc. So I do not understand why someone would react suspiciously towards me when I am asking the obvious questions and when there appears to be a lot of fluff in this article that is not based on anything concrete. Yes, I support the article focussing a bit more on Sicily and Isle of Man, but the historical evidence is heavily weighted in supporting that orientation. Why is that you too do not quiz why we mention all this other fluff with zero evidential backing? That's before we even get to the Entertainment section, which is another issue for another day! ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 04:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I know extremely little about Brittany specifically, but in Northern Europe (often, but not exclusively, the Celtic areas), there was a long tradition of a common use of triskele-ish ornamental motifs of various kinds; these were present in everything from pre-Christian metalwork to Christian illuminated manuscripts. It was rarely used as any kind of political emblem (as far as I'm aware), but it was part of a persisting ornamental aesthetic that was common to the skilled craftsmen, at least... Please don't change this article into a petty nationalist thing. AnonMoos 00:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I will not do that, I simply would like NPOV to work across the board and not be employed simply to shore up anglo-american hegemony. For instance, I ask you to look at these two sentences taken from the article:

1. 1. 1. Celtic influences in Anatolia, epitomized by the Gauls who invaded and settled Galatia, are especially noted by students who prefer to see a Celtic origin for the triskelion.
      2. Thus Pliny provided an eminently rational explanation— but for a symbol that must be older than any cartographic conception of the island, surely.

Can anyone look me straight in the face and say these sentences are truly NPOV? The second sentence is referring to the term Trinacria which is redirected to Triskelion. We know that trinacria means triangle or triangular in Greek, is it simply coincidence that the island of Sicily was named thus by the Greeks and the symbol was also named thus, i.e. that they had no idea that it was triangular in shape - that's a lot of coincidences to exlain away! No, much better to imagine a mystic celtic origin - mention the word celtic in an article and seems like you can write what you want, mention the work Sicilian, and it is immediately assumed you are exaggerating, lying, being nationalist - it's a miracle I haven't been accused of being a conman and/or a shyster yet! ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 03:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I support your Trinacrian triskelion, and I believe that the connection with the Isle of Man is Norse/Norman overlordship on both islands. There might conceivably be some Celtic connivance in that given the historical Norse-Celtic alliance against the Saxons (the plan of the first Norman place of worship in England resembles a Manx cat). The three legs could represent Loki/Lucky, the Norse Mercury, aka 'the Sky Traveller'/'the Sly One'/'the Trickster'(Trickster -> Triskelion? Like Mansk -> Manx?). Or else the sun, shining in Sicily and out of the hilt of the Manx Sword of State. Etaonsh 20:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Norse drinking horn triskelion

This article does not mention the drinking horn symbol that is found on the Snoldelev Stone. It's quite triskelion-like and, from my experience, is usually the symbol used by Germanic neopagans instead of the Celtic version. At the very least, it should be added to the "Neopagan" section here. See: [5]. Unless someone disagrees with inclusion here, I'll add it to the article in the appropriate areas. :bloodofox: 20:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I've just created that article, and added the reference here, so I don't understand what you mean? This is a single instance of an ornament on a 7th century runestone. Unless it is used repetitively, you cannot call it a "symbol". I referred to it under "see also", but I don't think it would be appropriate to tout it as a "Germanic triskelion". dab (ᛏ) 21:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

That would explain why I hadn't seen it here before but I have seen the symbol used by Germanic neopagan groups before. Is this what the article is referring to or are they referring to scant use by these groups of the Celtic triskelion? :bloodofox: 22:08, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I had never heard of the Snoldelev stone before today, I don't know what this article is referring to, and if there are no sources, you can just strike the statement; In any case, it is simply my own observation that led me to insert "compare triskelion" in the Snoldelev article. I do not claim that the symbol has been compared to the triskelion, that it is or should be called a triskelion or anything. The article is simply saying, hey, there's the triskelion, a similar symbol, check it out if you like". Similarly, we can say "check out the Snoldelev stone" here, but we shouldn't imply that there is any sort of deep connection between the symbols. dab (ᛏ) 22:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

You need a better description. Is it like the Diana of Poitiers emblem? AnonMoos 23:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

We're talking about the "three horns" design found on the Snoldelev Stone, which you can see a picture of on the runestone itself here: [6] It is sometimes used by Germanic neopagan groups. :bloodofox: 06:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Dude, if you're comparing it to something else in a Wikipedia article, then you need an image of it OR an accurate description of it in the Wikipedia article -- not on an outside link. In any case, the pattern of interlacing is in fact exactly the same as in the Diana of Poitiers emblem (as I suspected that it might be, based on the extremely skimpy and inadequate description provided at Snoldelev Stone). It's kind of like a triskelion, but not really a triskelion (unless you're willing to call the Borromean rings a "Triskelion"). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AnonMoos (talk • contribs).

Since when are external links not allowed on discussion pages? I provided the link so you could see the image for yourself before we added it to any article. Anyway, I agree with what you're saying about comparing it to the rings and the Diana of Poitiers emblem. :bloodofox: 21:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

both your points are laughable, dude. As for my description being skimpy and inadequate, well, Wikipedia had been going for five years with no description of the Snoldelev stone. If you think the symbol is equivalent to the Poitiers crescents, you are obviously not qualified to improve it; for one thing, the Poitiers crescents have mirror symmetries, while the Snoldelev horns have none. The definition of a triskelion on this article explicitly requires that there is no mirror symmetry. The drinking horns are a "triskelion" in the wider sense, like the triple spirals. A triskelion proper is a depiction of three legs. dab (ᛏ) 09:34, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Look again -- the pattern of interlacing is exactly same (that of incomplete Borromean rings -- each element crosses other elements four times, in an over-under-over-under way). If there's going to be a big deal made about the symbol on the Snoldelev Stone (which I never heard of before either), then some adequate description OR representation of it should be given. External links can be great, but they don't obviate the need for doing the basic work of defining something. AnonMoos 02:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

why "look again"? That's trivial. It still doesn't mean the symbols have the same symmetries. As for adding an image or "adequate" description, {{sofixit}}. dab (ᛏ) 10:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

As for adding the image to Snoldelev Stone, I would love to, but I am not sure the drawing is fair use. Are we using any other drawing of runestones? One might compare Image:Maumanorig_drawing.png, but there I gave the exact bibliographical reference; if we can dig that up for the Snoldelev image, I think we might upload it as a fair use image. dab (ᛏ) 09:38, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL, Dbachmann. There's no reason to get sarcastic or trivialize/dismiss someone else's ability to contribute. You've been here long enough to know better, and the point of the Poitiers crescents is that the figure has no mirror symetry, not that the individual arms/components don't. I think you're conflating/overstating the point; there is a compositional similarity between Snoldelev and Diane de Poitiers and (to a lesser extent) a triskelion. Whether it needs to be mentioned or not in this article is still up for debate.... -- nae'blis _(talk) 16:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Comparing it to the Triquetra article, perhaps it has more in common there? :bloodofox: 04:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

In modern usage, the word "Triquetra" is basically reserved for things which are knotted like a Trefoil knot. The Snoldelev stone falls into an area of symbols which have a threefold rotational symmetry, no reflection symmetry, but are not classic or typical cases of a triskelion. The Borromean rings and the Diane de Poitiers symbol also fall into that category, and in fact all three are closely related, since the Diane de Poiters symbol and the Snoldelev stone horns each have the interlacing pattern of the Borromean rings, but with open curved shapes instead of closed rings. For citations of other medieval examples of this with snakes and agricultural sickles, see the image description page Image:Three-Crescents-Diane-Poitiers.png. I'm not sure that there's a generic term for "partial borromean ring type things". Anyway, I will grant that the Snoldelev stone horns are closer to being a triskelion than the Diana of Poitiers symbol, just on superficial overall appearance (not looking too closely at all the details)... AnonMoos 05:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added pic

Added a redrawn version of the three-horns design to the Snoldelev Stone page. It's the best I could do in a reasonable amount of time using only straight lines and circular arcs, and with strict three-fold symmetry. To approximate it more exactly, you would have to use arbitrary curves, and allow some departures from three-fold rotational symmetry. AnonMoos 15:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks great! :bloodofox: 18:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Angels and demons

This was mentioned in angels and demons, the book by dan brown. In the book it claims the eye in the triangle on the 1 dollar bill is a trinacria. Now wen i typed in trinacria on wikipedia it took me to page about Triskelion? Now wut a Triskelion definetly not wut the eye in the triangle is. im confused y did wiki direct me to this page do trinacria and triskelion have sumthin to do with one another?

The Sicilian triskelion, is also called the trinacria. The redirect is nothing more than a current convenience, once I get the time, I will do a proper article on trinacria, because it means far more than just the triskelion, but is in fact an alternate name for Sicily itself. In fact, for the whole of the 14th century, following the split of the Kingdom of Sicily (as a consequence of the Sicilian Vespers), the island kingdom was called the Kingdom of Trinacria. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The eye in the trangle is actually called Eye of Providence, and has very little to do with a triskelion, as far as i can tell... AnonMoos 19:01, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Duplication

The "BDSM" section and the Story of O reference in the "Literature" section are now somewhat duplicative (should probably be merged in one place, but I'm not quite sure how...). AnonMoos 07:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I made the entry. As Story of O is a literary work, I belive it belongs in that section. The BDSM section could be rewritten to elimenate Story of O , The reason BDSM uses it is because it references Story of O, true. But, Story of O . nevertheless is a work of literature. -- Jason Palpatine 08:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC) (speak your mind | contributions)

Nope, the BDSM emblem originates from the Story of O. AnonMoos 08:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

That's what I said. -- Jason Palpatine 13:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC) (speak your mind | contributions)

[edit] BDSM Triskelion

It seems we can use the symbol on wikipedia becaues its much older than stated initially. Could anyone please check this website The Myth of the BDSM Symbol and the information given there? --Nemissimo II 13:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

We could always "use" it, it's just that it would be under a fair-use claim. I don't think that it's really our place to attempt to adjudicate a legal dispute, especially since TrueRose doesn't seem to have an obvious "smoking gun", or support from any official court ruling. AnonMoos 19:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political use

The London bomb outrage occurred arguably with three sevens involved, also - 7th July 2005 (2 + 5). Just a coincidence? Etaonsh 20:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hephaestus' tables

The article includes a quotation fom the Iliad to demonstrate that "the three legs of the triskelion are reminiscent of Hephaestus' three-legged tables that ran by themselves." No academic or other source is given for this intriguing claim. I deduce from the quotation that the three legged tables moved on golden wheels, and never 'ran' as the article claims. I am out on a limb and please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but common sense tells me any comparison between a wheeled three-legged table and the Triskelion is lazy nonsense. As I am passing through and speculating I have not altered the article in any way. Jez

I have to admit that I too have always viewed that part as a bit of personal whimsy. I gave up a while ago the hope that this article would attempt to tackle the long history of the triskelion, in particular, that which is actually recorded. But in fact hardly any seems to touch on any recorded history at all, rather, the article has become a place for people to play around with personal whimsies and fantasies. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 11:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this article records a miscellany of many different usages, since symbols which fall under the word triskelion have been used in many different miscellaneous contexts... AnonMoos 15:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)