Talk:Treason

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Style dispute 2 POV edits concerning the civil war+ 3 POV edits concerning the civil war 4 Questions 5 Florida and Treason 6 Brutus as a traitor 7 List is haphazard at best 8 Thomas More a traitor? 9 Are dual loyalists traitors? 10 Reorganization 11 List of Traitors 12 Lori Berenson 13 Question: 14 Merge 15 "to overthrow the government is not treason" 16 Misc 17 Criticism 18 Oppenheimer 19 USA 20 Ann Coulter 21 Last Briton to be executed for treason 22 George Bush & co.

[edit] Style dispute

An anonymous user does not approve of the English usage of singular noun + third person singular plural as a stylistic device (amongst other things as a gender neutral). This is an old and accepted usage. Not everyone likes it, but the Manual of Style is quite clear that an editor should not change the style of an article if its simply a matter of personal choice. Someone else (or other people) put together a coherent whole, it is both bad form and probably bad style, to mess with it. Please discuss here (anonymous user) if you have anything sensible to say on the issue. Just because you don't like the usage, doesn't make it wrong.

Incidentally, I don't think I wrote it - I'm just defending what's there. Francis Davey 19:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, you might want to look at the singular they article. It was good enough for Shakespeare, Thackeray and Jane Austin, so its good enough for me. Francis Davey 19:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how much weight we should put on an argument about grammar that is not punctuated properly. Just pointing it out; no personal offence intended. Athanatis 13:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV edits concerning the civil war+

I guess who has a highly POV is open to debate.

The truth ought to be a reasonable defense.

One source for the point that the reason there were not trials for the traitors from the Civil War is Abraham Lincoln's second inaugaral address, in which he stated the policy of 'malice to none, charity to all'. Of course, Lincoln did not live to see how corrupted the history of the Civil War became. In America the issue is still hotly contested, as John McCain learned in the South Carolina primary.

What has happened here, in my opinion, is that the editor below feels that the truth is not a reasonable defense, but that the encyclopedia should be a bland compromise. Diderot would have been disappointed.

I will put in a new version of the edit that seeks to accommodate to your viewpoint as much as I feel is possible consistent with the truth that I would like to see in the articles, which is that the reason Confederates were not charged with treason had to do with the politics of reconciliation not the character of the acts of those who betrayed the US constitution and government.

Actually, as far as I have ever learned, the major reason that confederates were never charged with treason is because there was serious doubts among northern prosecutors that indictments for treason could be upheld. There was fear in the government that the Supreme Court would rule that the leaders of the confederacy had not committed any crime in seceding from the Union.--Henrybaker 00:56, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV edits concerning the civil war

An anonymous user has been repeatedly inserting highly POV text into the United States section. The text reads:

Of course, the reality is that all southerners who supported the Confederacy were treasonous. The failure to prosecute these cases was not made on a legal basis, but on the belief that doing so would help bind the nation together. Unfortunately this belief has proven false. Southern revisionist historians have portrayed the treasonous behavior of the Confederates as heroic and portrayed the Unionists are agressors. No Confederate State has passed a resolution apologizing for the loss of life that their treasonous behavior caused nor to the slaves that they fought to keep. The white washing of history serves no legitamate purpose except to allow people to escape responsibility for their ancestors actions and to hold a viewpoint inconsistent with history.

This is quite clearly a personal opinion and far from being neutral. For the record I am a UK citizen and don't have a particular axe to grind about N v S in the US. It may well be that treason prosecutions were not pursued for reasons of national unity -- I would like to see some references to work on the subject before I was happy with that going here. But the rest of the material is rather evaluative and really has no place in an article on Treason. Perhaps it should be taken to an article on the civil war or reconstruction and debated there? Francis Davey 09:03, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

Nice work on this!

Questions ...

• "The punishment for treason was often extended and especially cruel."

To call a spade a spade this should actually read: "The punishment for treason was often extended and especially cruel torture.", no?

• "There have been only two successful prosecutions for treason on the state level, that of Thomas Dorr in Rhode Island and that of John Brown in Virginia."

Can anybody add the dates for these?

---

While I totally agree with the Ashcroft thing and think he should be tarred and feathered, I think its a bit POV. It would be better to pick a historical case to make the point here. -Reboot

Edit the crime sidebar at Mediawiki:crime -SV(talk) 09:04, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Florida and Treason

In this sentence

The state of Florida's constitution defines treason as: "[Treason is] levying war against [the state], adhering to its enemies, or giving them aid and comfort..."

Is there any particular reason Florida was chosen? The U.S. Constitution defines treason and would seem more appropriate. States don't ordinarily try people for treason. -- Cecropia 05:46, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Brutus as a traitor

Brutus betrayed Caesar, but not the Roman Republic. Actually he purported to protect Rome from Caesar's ambitions to become its sole ruler. This makes it dubious whether Brutus (and hence Cassius also) were true traitors, as they believed (with some right) that Caesar was an ursurper. And although they may have faced treason charges (or the outrage of the population), which made them flee Rome, I wouldn't call them traitors. Dante placed Brutus in the lowest circles of Hell, but Shakespeare portrayed him as a hero.

Although Brutus is still an assassin... But this is factual, while treason is more subjective.

I also find it quite comical that Caesar is named now as a traitor as well. The traitor betrayed. And although crossing the Rubicon amounted to treason, he was never convicted for it. I must conclude thah treason has a strong political stench to it, but I'm not sure that although formally maybe someone has comitted treason, either an upheld conviction or historic infamy (however subjective judgment may be in both cases) should be needed to put someone in these lists as a traitor, as I do agree with Dante that it is one of the worst crimes man can commit. But of course, that is subjective as well ;)

-On a related note, I somehow doubt that Lucifer was a historical figure. I'm removing it from the list. [Thucydides]

[edit] List is haphazard at best

The article seems to justify not listing leaders of the Confederacy, the most organized armed rebellion in U.S. history, as traitors because charges were never brought. Are we to only list people who were convicted of treason? In that case Benedict Arnold should not be listed - he fled to Britain. Judas Iscariot, moreover, was never convicted of treason, indeed would have been considered heroicly loyal by the Romans, the regime in power at that time.
We should also, if we're just listing people convicted of treason, expand the list to political dissidents of such regimes as the Soviet Union, Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and any number of other historical and current dictatorial regimes.
So clearly we are not listing just those convicted of treason - so why exclude Confederates?
Then again, if we're listing people whom we only believe to be traitors, why not expand the list greatly and let people make their own decisions by reading the individual's biography? If we expand the list of traitors to popular belief in their era (an important note), then we might place George Washington on the list of UK traitors, for example.
In short, this list is clearly Western (even U.S.) biased, has no clear pattern as to why or where people are listed, and incomplete at best. We should either drop it entirely, or set up guidelines and expand it greatly.
--Xinoph 17:03, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas More a traitor?

You could say many things about Thomas More, but how is he classified as a traitor? --Penta 22:18, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This flows back to my point above.--Xinoph 17:51, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

More was convicted of treason and executed for refusing to recognise Henry VIII as Supreme Head of the Church of England. Richard75 02:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are dual loyalists traitors?

Can dual loyalty be an example of treason - for example how Napoleon III failed to prevent the rise of the German Empire because he was more loyal to Italy than to France? GCarty 11:53, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Divided loyalty can constitute treason, but the political decisions of a legitimate ruler are not considered treason unless they were motivated by a desire to harm his own country. Ex post facto results viewed in hindsight are not traitorous. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 19:19, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization

I did some reorganizing of the article, such as putting treason under Britain and the US under their own sections. I also expanded on the fact that people accuse others of treason for dissenting against government policy. I know that's a potential NPOV case. so I didn't name names here. But I think it's valid to have that in the article on treason.
JesseG 06:31, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)

I am about to add some info from NZ. I feel that a time will come where we should have individual articles for counries and a Category:Treason by country. This will avoid clutter in the Treason article. Alan Liefting 03:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Traitors

This list is way too subjective. It should only include those who have at least been brought to trial for treason, with a notation of whether the trial succeeded. Also, the definitions of treason in different countries and times vary. The legal definition of treason, as noted in the U.S. article, is very narrow. On the other hand, monarchies can and have deemed anyone who opposes the monarch traitors. Kings have had wives or even concubines put to death on suspicion of sleeping with someone else. How were they traitors? The King was the state (L'etat, ce moi) so betraying him personally was treason.

Certainly George Washington was a traitor in the eyes of Britain, but so was every leader of the American Revolution. How do we list Washington in particular without naming John Adams, who was much more the firebrand in believing that the interests of the colonies and the crown were unreconcilable? Why not Thomas Jefferson, who drafted the Declaration of Independence, a theoretical basis of treason? Then I will turn the other way and point out that the treaty signed in 1783 that acknowledged the indepedence of the U.S. in effect absolved American leaders of treason.

Louis XVI and Marie Antionette? Oh, please. Like it or not, they were the internationally recognized rulers of France. So when you deem them and not, say, Danton and Robespierre, as traitors, you are redefining "traitor" as "loser."

After the death of Lenin, was Trotsky the traitor? Or Stalin?

I would not even list those who I reasonably believe are traitors if they were never so charged. Example: John Walker Lindh. His case pretty neatly fits the Constitutional definition of treason. But he was never charged with treason. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 03:29, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lori Berenson

Situation might be interesting in the context of this article. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:31, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Wasn't she the American woman involved in an intrigue in another country? Then no matter what she did there (unless she was acting as an agent against the US) there is no issue of treason. This article is messy enough with its charges of treason against individuals anyway. They should almost all be removed. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 19:10, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes; her conviction is highly controversial, as although she is a U.S. citizen, she was convicted of treason against Peru. Without taking a POV here, the case is certainly interesting and I think mention of it might add something to the article. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:29, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing the fine points of other nations' laws, but unless she's a dual citizen, I don't see how she could be convicted of treason. Subversion, maybe, or being a spy, but treason? -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 23:38, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

She was working with a revolutionary party. Likewise with all the revolutionaries on the list, it is treason in the minds of the current government he/she fights. But if a revolutionary is trying to make his/her country a "better" place, it really doesn't fit treason, since in this scenario, they are not helping SOME OTHER country. Also, in my mind I make a distinction between being loyal to your country, and being loyal to the government that happens to be in control of your country at some moment.

Well most traitors believe they are trying to make their country a better place... E.g. John Walker Lindh, Guy Fawke's, Oliver Cromwell, the Muslims clerics in UK. Really the most likely reason you'll be a traitor would be if you want to make your country a better place. Even William Joyce surely had the intention of eventually making the UK a better place... Nil Einne 19:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Lindh was not convicted of treason. When he joined the Taliban, the US gov was giving money to the Taliban for wiping out the opium crop. But anyway, Nothing to do with making "their" country a better place. Selling military information to the enemy-- clearly traitorous, and not trying to make their country better. Your first sentence needs rethinking. Maybe 'some' would be a better word. GangofOne 22:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm no expert on this matter, but the article Allegiance stated that, in the UK at least, allegiance arises not only when you're the citizen of a country, but also when you're a friendly alien residing in a particular territory. Possibly Berenson was held to owe local allegiance to Peru. As I said, I don't know, I'm just stating a possibility. Athanatis 14:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

That's right. You can be guilty of treason even if you are not a citizen of the country, because as soon as you enter that country the government owes you a duty of protection under its laws, which carries a reciprocal duty not to attack that government or country while you are there (unless you are a member of an invading army). As for wanting to make your country a better place, motive is irrelevant in the criminal law of most (probably all) countries. It's what you do, not why you do it, that makes you guilty of treason. And no distinction is drawn between treason against a country and against the government of that country. Richard75 16:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question:

Can a citizen of Country A who willingly "outsources" or sends the jobs of gainfully employed citizens to Country B, be considered a traitor to Country A? The logic being that the cumlative effect of repeatedly sending high paying jobs overseas to countries with lower paying wages, resulting in the slow erosion of that country's economy. One definition of the word treason seems to allow for such an interpretation. "citizen's actions to...make war against, or seriously injure the [parent country]" War could be interpreted as economic warfare.

I doubt economic warfare will hold up because it's not supported by any laws or precident and more importantly, the intention is not to make war against the country that is losing the jobs, but just to save costs. I.e. most likely, the reasons for the actions are to safe costs not to make war therefore there is no way treason would apply. Nil Einne 18:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Econmic war is just a name for business as usual. Whether treason involves 'intent' is another question. If someone outsourch FOR THE PURPOSE of harming his country... Perhaps if you're unhappy with outsourcing, you could vote for policies and parties that oppose it. Of course an outsourcher may profit, but they produce an impoverished nation around them; hardly very desirable from even a selfish point of view. Such is the shortsightedness of the human point of view. This discussion is becoming off topic. GangofOne 00:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

There is significant overlap of the United Kingdom section with the High treason article. This article mainly discusses high treason after all and not petty treason. So I guess either discuss UK briefly mainly the current situation and link to the high treason article OR kill the high treason article and move it all here. Either way, I don't think the current situation is fruitful... Nil Einne 18:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I concur with the above. The UK section takes up way too much space on the treason article to serve as just an example. --SpacemanAfrica 04:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

With regard to the above comment on petty treason, there isn't really much to say about petty treason as it was just aggravated murder, so any article about treason is bound to focus on high treason. Petty treason was not unique to the UK, they had it in the US as well until 1789. Richard75 03:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, treason is more expansive than just High Treason, and is not limited to one nationality. Perhaps some redundancy could be eliminated by linking between articles, but I think both articles should be included.

I have moved the bulk of the section to High treason in the United Kingdom. Richard75 16:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "to overthrow the government is not treason"

It is also generally considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government. It is objected that in countries like the United States, conspiring to overthrow the government is not treason as the Constitution states it is the duty of citizens to overthrow a corrupt or malfunctioning government."

The second sentence was disputed by User:Krich '"it is objected" by whom? source please'

I believe the editor was probably refering to http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence , "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is in the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, ..." -- GangofOne 03:41, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

United States Code, Title 18:

Sec. 2384. Rebellion or insurrection

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Sec. 2384. Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

Sec. 2390. Enlistment to serve against United States

Whoever enlists or is engaged within the United States or in any place subject to the jurisdiction thereof, with intent to serve in armed hostility against the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

As the Declaration of Independence simply stated the fact and the reasons why the thirteen colonies would no longer consider themselves part of England, and did nothing to create the legal entity known as "United States of America", it cannot be cited as legal justification excusing acts charged as treason under U.S. Code. If the U.S. Constitution contained such verbiage, that would be a different matter entirely.

What I would like to know is if the Constitution requires all those "owing allegiance" to refrain from giving aid and comfort to the enemy, couldn't someone like Adam Gadahn simply state that he no longer owed allegiance to the country? Other folks do on occasion leave a country and give up their citizenship, and under the U.S. Constitution it seems they would get a pass on charges of treason simply by doing so. That's assuming, of course, that the U.S. Constitution would be allowed to trump U.S. Code. Comments? Ridenm 22:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

If you leave your country and give up citizenship then you generally no longer owe allegiance to it (although some say that you still owe allegiance if you leave your dependent family behind, as your former government would continue to protect them on your behalf -- that's an old-fashioned point of view though and might not be upheld by a court today). The exception is if in time of war you become a citizen of the enemy country, which is "adhering to the enemy." Richard75 16:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

A few points. First, successfully overthrowing a government is not treason--winners are, by definition, not traitors.  :)

Second, intepreting the DofI to mean that arbitrary attempts to overthrow the US government are legally tolerated, is wrong. The D of I, keep in mind, has no legal force as US law; it was a political piece justifying the removal of the British crown from the American colonies. The government to be "abolished", in this case, was seated in London. The Constitution contains no language which might be construed to permit the non-democratic overthrow of the US government. It does, however, list many mechanism for the peaceful replacement of the government, most notably this thing called "elections". Of course, some argue that the major two political parties are indistinguishable, thus true reform cannot come democratically; I rather strongly disagree with such sentiments. --EngineerScotty 17:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misc

Added dab-link to Anne Coulter's book.

Also, in that spirit; it might be useful to add content about the use of "treason" (and related epithets like "traitor", "disloyal", etc.) as a way of deriding one's political opponents (especially in the context of democratic debate, where extra-legal means of achieving a policy objective are not considered)? In US politics today; both sides of the political spectrum have their share of ideologues who routinely accuse the other side of treason. This is certainly not a phenomenon unique to 2006; or to the US. --EngineerScotty 01:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

I would think there is a fair amount of critiscism of treason laws, as "victor's justice" etc. Has anyone given thought to a "criticisms" heading?24.64.223.203 22:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oppenheimer

Can we clarify the wording surround Oppenheimer? It is utterly opaque, first insinuating that he's guilty, then stating that he's not, and then implying his guilt?? innocence?? is a right-wing and/or jewish plot ???? I've never even heard ot this "plot" before. (My memory of reading venona long ago was that it cleared Oppenheimer completely) 67.100.217.179 06:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] USA

Can we start a discussion here on whether the declaration of independence in the American colonies in 1776 constitued treason or sedition? Let us stick to an intelligent discussion, please.137.186.248.248 19:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ann Coulter

Should there perhaps be a link from this page to other references of "treason", such as to Ann Coulter's book "Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism"? PJ 15:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Go for it.--Mike18xx 22:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last Briton to be executed for treason

The penalty for treason was changed from death to a maximum of imprisonment for life in 1998 under the Crime And Disorder Act. Before 1998, the death penalty was mandatory, subject to the royal prerogative of mercy. William Joyce was the last person to be put to death for treason, in 1946.

Theodore Schurch appears to be the last person to be put to death for treason, in 1946, a day after the penultimate person, William Joyce. Qwerty 13:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Schurch was executed for treachery, not treason. See Treachery Act 1940. Richard75 17:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] George Bush & co.

it's why 50% of you are here.. what would it take to charge the masons & decidedly evil bastards with treason? even if nothing comes of it, it'd be an incredibly patriotic gesture.