Wikipedia talk:Translation into English

Page	Initialization
Wikipedia:Translation/_fr/Months/December_2006	`{{subst:Translation/Initialization for a new month\|fr\|December_2006}}`
Wikipedia:Translation/_de/Months/December_2006	`{{subst:Translation/Initialization for a new month\|de\|December_2006}}`
Wikipedia:Translation/_ja/Months/December_2006	`{{subst:Translation/Initialization for a new month\|ja\|December_2006}}`
Wikipedia:Translation/_**/Months/December_2006	`{{subst:Translation/Initialization for a new month\|**\|December_2006}}`

[edit] New regional project

If there is a great activity on a given language, and you think it is better to add a new regional project, send an email to me :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Jmfayard

[edit] fr:Projet:Traduction

Hello,

I consider to port here the infrastructure (or the parts that are needed) which I developped during moths for fr:Projet:Traduction to make it ergonomic and efficient (then it can spread to others wikipedia too).

Is someone maintening this page ? I may have a lot of questions for him in the future ;-)

Jmfayard 08:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It certainly looks nice in it's present form. But since WP:TIE is currently used instead, I suggest a message should be put at the top of the page to remind editors that the page is not in use (yet). I can't wait for the new page's up though ^_-. --Kakurady

[edit] To propose a page to be translated

Where the new Wikipedia:Translation says "To propose a page to be translated, type the name of the article below and follow the instructions" it is totally unclear if one is to enter the foreign-language article name or an English-language name. Presuming the former (as the only thing that really makes sense), mightn't it be simpler to fill in two fields, one for language code and the other for article name? - Jmabel | Talk 23:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No, in this case it means the English-language page. The link created is the subpage where you can change the translation status (request, in progress, etc) as well as talk to those working with you on it.

For example,

fr:Fort Rouillé is the article being worked on, and
fr:Projet:Traduction/Fort Rouillé is the subpage.

I just changed the instructions to read To propose a page to be translated, type the name of the article below in English and follow the instructions. Thanks for the heads-up. I'm used to the system by now, so it didn't occur to me that it wasn't clear.

Marialadouce | parlami 01:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I forgot that there are now a few articles in the English Wikipedia in the new system. Here is an example that will hopefully be clearer:

Ash Ketchum, the article being worked on, and
Wikipedia:Translation/Ash Ketchum, its subpage.

Marialadouce | parlami 01:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Existing translation requests

If we are going over to a new system, is there a proposal for how we will import existing translation requests into the new system? - Jmabel | Talk 23:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if this will be done for the English version; we must see what Jean-Michel has planned. However, in the French Wikipedia, the translations in progress before the new Project Translation was set up were only partially converted to the new system. For example:

fr:Goths has the old translation template still affixed to the top of the article, but
fr:Projet:Traduction/*/Tout/février 2006 it is listed using the new template

I like it this way, as those who are unsure about using the new system may ease into it by seeing how the page they're working on looks on the main translation page, but don't necessarily have to plunge into the new system right away. They can take their time finishing their work on the old system while pottering around with the new.

Marialadouce | parlami 01:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jmabel, nice to hear from you. Yes of course, existing translation requests need to be imported into the new system. I just finished to do it for the requests which are less than two months old

You can find a list in Category:Translation sub-pages. They are 66 of them currently.

By the way, I wrote and maintain a TODO list at the top of this page. If you see something missing, please complete it or ask me about it.

Jmfayard 13:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Oups, I misunderstood your question. My new answer is here : Wikipedia:Bot_requests#Wikipedia:Translation

Jmfayard 23:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Général

Could someone translate this into English, please. (This page has suddenly become puzzling.) —Ian Spackman 23:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep sorry. A new translation infrastructure is being imported and translated from fr:Projet:Traduction. If you find other mistakes in Wikipedia:Translation, please report them here. Jmfayard 23:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation of the Week

What exactly is the point of the "translation of the Week" ?

Is it here to give a proof that "voting is evil" ? What does it mean that you "support" this or that article as translation of the week ? Does it mean that you will help to translate it ? If yes, why should you then have to wait, why should you stop if someone else find it not interesting ? Just do it if you want you find it interesting. If not, what does it bring to the people who will do the work ?

Jmfayard 13:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I assume that your first question is rhetorical, so I will skip it.
Hopefully, as on all of the dozens of "of the week" collaborations, people who "support" are (at least tentatively) volunteering.
Anyone can work on anything at any time, and (speaking only for SPATRA, because it is the only one I'm involved in), many drop off of our radar because someone takes them on individually. You shouldn't at all stop just because something is listed.
Typically, what the project accomplishes is that it lets us take on rather difficult articles that almost no one would be able to take on alone. For example, our current translation (es:Trillo ==> Threshing-board/Translation, which is almost certain to take more than a week) is full of archaic agricultural terminology, allusions to ancient writers who are known by different names in Spanish than they are in English, etc., and has a rather complex citation apparatus. There aren't a lot of people who would take this on alone. Our previous one (Rafael Maroto) was thick with early 19th century military terminology, very formal government pronouncements, and allusions to events that, for an English-speaking audience, needed explanation rather than just translation. Occasionally some one or two people can do something like this on their own (two of us, myself and the original author, pretty much translated Paragraph 175, another toughie, from German). But mostly, if these are left until someone wants to take it on all on their own, they either never get started, or are abandoned halfway. - Jmabel | Talk 07:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Rough proposition : perhaps it should be renamed Collaborative Translation (because that's what it is ; it can last more or less than one week, there can be simulateneus translation of the week) and to avoid the "vote - don't contribute" problem, it could be something more in the spirit of http://www.pledgebank.com/

70%

Translation In Progress -----

Linux →

Linux ---- (more info)

Reason why a collaborative translation is needed : it is full of archaic agricultural terminology, allusions to ancient writers who are known by different names in Spanish than they are in English, etc., and has a rather complex citation apparatus

I promise to help to translate this article but only if 5 other persons do the same

Current volunteers

~~Jmabel~~
Jmfayard
Marialadouce (specialist of archaic agricultural terminology)
your name here

Jmfayard 10:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea why this last should be an issue. Wikipedia:Spanish Translation of the Week seems to be working well, and has been working well for several years. Why mess with it? - Jmabel | Talk 17:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Right, let's not change anything for now. Jmfayard 17:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't tell whether your last reply should be read as "OK, let's leave SPATRA alone" or as sarcasm about WP:TIE. I thing redoing WP:TIE to achieve much more granularity and to allow pieces to be transcluded in various ways is a great idea; I think you are going a good direction on this. But WP:SPATRA is an entirely different matter. It isn't facing a comparable problem of scale. - Jmabel | Talk 05:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, no there was no sarcasm in my answer. Please keep in mind that I'm not fluent in english (which is my 3rd or 4th language) and that this makes my written answers looking less sharp and more harsh that whas I had in mind when I wrote them. Jmfayard 08:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

Jmabel and others, I have a few questions

Which template do you use to indicate that an article is heavily based on a translation from another wikipedia ?

I discovered {{FRref}} and {{SPATRAref}}. Is there nothing for the other languages ? Why not a single template ?

This article draws heavily on the [[{{{1}}}]] article in the French-language Wikipedia, which was accessed in the version of {{{2}}}.

Doesn't you have an additional template to be put in the talk page which says that the original article was under the GFDL licence ... in the v ersion ... see the authors in the page history ...

We have fr:Template:Traduit de for this

We do not have one single template for this, just recommended text. A template might well be in order; at the time I was putting together this process (about 2-1/2 years ago), templates with parameters were still rather discouraged. I don't know much about {{FRref}}; {{SPATRAref}} came about from one particular project, the "Spanish translation of the week". - Jmabel | Talk 07:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, that will be {{Translation/Ref}}. I updated the instructions displayed in a translation sub-page. Jmfayard 10:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

2 questions:

Is there any reason to have a slash in the name of a template? Normally we try to avoid that.
It is possible I misunderstand, because the template uses some moderately advanced features, but it looks to me like if no permalink is provided this will say misleadingly that it was translated from the current version, which will be a lie once the foreign-language page is ever edited. Also discourages using this template for articles already translated, since it will be difficult belatedly to track down the exact version that was used. - Jmabel | Talk 16:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

A namespace was very helpful because I used a lof ot internal templates. I don't want to change. But this template is not internal, so you can rename it to what you think most appropriate. Modifiy Template:Translation/Instructions accordingly
OK. I changed the template.

Jmfayard 17:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Existing Translation Requests

{{Translation request}} is now a redirect of {{Translation}}. So no problem for the future translation requests made with the old syntax, but what do we do with the existing translation requests ? This was your question.

The template used in the existing translation requests have been renamed from {{Translation request}} to {{Translation request (old)}}. The same trick of superposition of the old template and the translation sub-page if it exists (as used in {{Translation}}) is used.

For example :

Talk:Great Barrier Reef (contains {{Translation request (old)}} and has a translation sub-page)
Talk:Spiral (contains {{Translation request (old)}} and has no translation sub-page yet)

Template: Translation

These changes don't make sense: they change the purpose of an existing template. Also, why would you tag something with information about where to make a translation request? This makes no sense to me at all. - Jmabel | Talk 20:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

You were right. I think I solved the problem now. See :

Sea Scout (old use ; unmodified)
Ptolemais (new use ; the translation sub-page is not yet created)
Vélizy-Villacoublay (new use ; the translation sub-page is created)

Jmfayard 10:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I, for one, really dislike this last one: it looks absolutely excessive for something at the top of an article page.

Frankly, I think this whole thing should go on talk pages. I objected to this {{translation}} template being on article pages when it was first introduced a year or two ago, but now that you have elaborated it, my objection is only stronger. - Jmabel | Talk 16:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

They are pros and cons. I need to think about it. Jmfayard 17:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay; I was travelling quite a bit at the weekend, leaving me with no internet connection.

Jean-Michel asked me to translate and explain our points of view on the translation templates, as he feels that his English may be prone to misunderstandings.

He gave a lot of thought to putting said template on the discussion page and even created a modified version of it, as shown below:

{{WP:TR/Vélizy-Villacoublay}}, the normal template that we are proposing be left on the article pages, as in Vélizy-Villacoublay,
{{WP:TR/Jouy-en-Josas | Parameter = hide }}, the same template, minimised, as in Jouy-en-Josas,
and {{WP:TR/Jouy-en-Josas | Parameter = show }}, the same template, not minimised, as in Wikipedia:Translation/_fr/In_Progress/December_2006

He kept in mind that some articles in en: already have lots of templates scattered over the top of the talkpage (example: Talk:Linux), making the addition of the translation template quite messy. This is part of the reason why we oppose putting it on the talkpages. The others are:

There's much, much less traffic on the discussion pages than on the articles themselves. If we put the template on the discussion pages, we risk losing potential translators - people we can introduce to the project. While exploring fr:, I have often found pages with a translation request banner, and have worked on them or "pushed" them back up the request list to allow someone else with more experience with specialised vocabulary discover it.
Some may say that putting the template on the article page will distract people or annoy them, but we feel that if it annoys them that much, then they should work on the article to enable its removal.

I, for one, feel that the template should be left on the article page during all the steps of the translation process: request, in progress, proofreading, etc. You may say the template is too big and distracting, but to me that's the whole point of putting it there in the first place; the article needs to be recognised as a work in progress or a request for translation, or no one (except perhaps the most dedicated translators with the request page on their watchlist) will notice otherwise. I know plenty of people who read Wikipedia and have done so for months or years while ignoring all but the "edit this page" tab above; they will certainly never take a look at a discussion page, even if the subject is a passion of theirs.

I hope my explanation has been clear. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask! We're all here to make the project more accessible to everyone, after all. Marialadouce | parlami 14:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Maria for your help.

Just one thing to add : my main proposition was that the template should be put at the top of the article not right after the translation request is made (where it could stay for weeks, which can be annoying) but only when someone begin to translate it. Since then, it should not last very long, and it is very useful to have it there, both for the readers who will know that some work is being done and for the translator and proofreader (it's better to have the information you need to update right where you are working). Jmfayard 17:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk pages

Is there any objection to giving Wikpedia:Translation its own talk page rather than redirecting its talk page here? - Jmabel | Talk 03:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

No. Jmfayard 17:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

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Wikipedia talk:Translation into English

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Contents

[edit] TODO list for Wikipedia:Translation

[edit] Maintenance

[edit] New month