Talk:Trap-Neuter-Return

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Hi, I'm new to wikipedia, and apologize if I'm making a newbie error.

I believe the latest edit by Tannin (22:37 13 Apr 2004) detracts from the neutral point of view of the article.

In particular the elimination of the clause "Many wildlife and bird advocacy organizations argue that..." changes the tone of the sentence by asserting "...does little or nothing to address destruction of native wildlife by feral cats" as a factual statement rather than a point of view held by those who oppose TNR.

I have tried to maintain a neutral tone when writing the article by using phrases like "Proponents ... believe", "they argue", "is said to be", so that the arguments made can be recognized as the views of those who promote TNR. When presenting the opposition, the tone of the sentence should make clear that the opposing argument is a viewpoint, so I think the "Many wildlife and bird advocacy organizations argue that..." phrase should be restored.

I propose the following compromise wording of the beginning of the last paragraph:

"However, the Trap-Neuter-Return approach is controversial. Many wildlife and bird advocacy organizations argue that TNR does nothing to address destruction of native wildlife by feral cats." Changing "not universally accepted" to "controversial" does not present the opposing point of view as something "out in left field" so to speak.

To add balance, I also propose adding this external link presenting the opposing point of view. User:FelineAvenger

The problem, FelineAvenger, is that you are trying to present a simple matter of fact as if it were an opinion. It would be perfectly acceptable, and indeed essential, to do as you suggest if we were talking about an opinion. But we are not talking about an opinion. It is not possible to rationally dispute the statement "TNR does nothing to address destruction of native wildlife by feral cats" - not unless you are going to claim that neutered cats don't eat meat, or something equally bizzare.

It is doubtless also true that "many organisations" argue this, but in putting it the way you propose would disguise the verifiable fact (that cats destroy native wildlife) behind a descripton of the social controversy that surrounds that fact.

By all means feel free to discuss the significance of the fact (say that pro-wildlife organisations make much of it, suggest that habitat destruction by humans is a bigger problem, point out that - at least in my part of the world - cats are thought to be a significantly less deadly native species destroyer than foxes, and so on). My objection to your previous edit was that you (unintentionally, no doubt) phrased the entry in such a way as to make it seem that wildlife destruction by cats was an opinion, which it isn't.

Make sense? Tannin 04:38, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

OK, I see where you are coming from, but it looks like it wasn't clear which part I'm trying to indicate is an opinion. It is indeed a fact that cats are predators and can kill wildlife. The part that is opinion is the idea that TNR does nothing about it.

Remember, the whole idea that elimination/removal of feral cat populations mitigates the problem of predation is the fact that if fewer predators are present, less total predation occurs. By the same token, other methods that reduce feral cat populations, including TNR, reduce predation as well, to whatever extent they reduce the population over the long term. I won't elaborate, since this is really a meta discussion, but suffice to say that there are plenty of people out there who believe their TNR efforts are reducing the number of feral cats and thereby mitigating the predation problem. Unless you consider that belief so absurd as to be not worth recognizing, the opposing point of view (that TNR does little or nothing about predation) ought to be recognized as an opinion.

So, I would propose the following revision:

"However, the Trap-Neuter-Return approach is controversial. Feral cats, which are introduced species in some parts of the world, predate upon wildlife. Many wildlife and bird advocacy organizations argue that TNR does nothing to address this issue."

This wording should allow the reader to distinguish the opinion part ("does nothing to address") from the factual part (feral cats are predators). I also changed "destruction" to "predation" because the former wording seems to connote that feral cats are the established cause of extinction of some species. Looks like I'd have to make some revisions to the subsequent sentence so it is less of a non-sequitur, something like "TNR proponents disagree, saying that their efforts mitigate predation by reducing the feral cat population, and that in any case, feral cats are scapegoats..."

I would still add the outside link to the opposing position statement.

Does that satisfy your objections, Tannin?

FelineAvenger 07:03, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC) Revised FelineAvenger 17:01, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi Tannin. It's been about two weeks since my proposed revision. Since you've not responded, I'm going to assume that the suggested wording, or similar, will satisfy your objection, or that you no longer have an interest in the subject. I'm going ahead with some changes that will include something like what I've proposed above.

FelineAvenger 17:45, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)