Talk:Transgender/Archive 01

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[edit] Non-operative Transsexuals

The section on non-operative transsexuals doesn't take into consideration non-op transgender people today. Is this section to distinguish between the common use of the word "transexual" or "transsexual" to describe an individual who is undergoing hormonal and/or surgical transition to their body?

Reasons people may choose not to or be forced not to operate might include: the results are undesirable - aesthetically or funcionally, they lack money, they lack pyschiatric approval required in many places, because of spiritual or moral beliefs about changing the body, their body is unable to withstand the risks or side-effects, and other reasons. This section could also be expanded to include non-hormone transgender people. Not having an operation or not taking hormones does not change the fact that a person was designated the wrong gender at birth. It is simply the path that some (many) transexual people take. I haven't updated this part of the article, but wanted to open to discussion before I work at it.

[edit] Deletion Log

  • Deleted discussion of categories. For removed content see Older Versions. Summaised (badly) by Martin 09:10 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)
    • caution: the term transvestite is mildly ambiguous
    • Is transvestic fetishism transgender? Not in general
    • question of whether drag queen needs to seperate the gay subculture from the stage performance, and how

Korea is undergoing a transgender revolution, with many popular Korean transgender celebrities coming out. The first popular one was Harisu, later others such as Ryu Na In and Lady (four singers). This is the first Yahoo! group specifically dedicated to them http://groups.yahoo.com/group/korean_angels.

Due to the length of the previous debates, I'll put the most recent one now on top.

Somebody changed the bit about the number of gay and lesbian transgenders (after transitioning) from "many" to "probably about equal to that among the population as a whole". The later is a rather stange assumption, since every transgender group that does not discriminiate against gay or lesbian transgenders reports a very high number of gay or lesbian or bi- (or pan-)sexual transgenders. It is almost always at least one third of the group, but often more than half. That is clearly above the rate among the general population! (At least for now ;-)
I am not sure about published statistics (they are far to rare anyway), but counts by doctors who are also known not to discriminate against non-straight transgenders show only slightly lower numbers - and then it has to be taken into account that far too many transgenders would not dare to mention being not straigt to even the most liberal doctors.

Therefore, changed that passage back, and expanded a bit. Also added the bit about homosexuality - the word just does not work when talking about transgenders. -- AlexR 22:25 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

That meshes with my experience, certainly. However, I've moved this para here because I'm not hugely happy with it...
"The word homosexuality should not be used in connection with transgendered people, since it can be very difficult to decide what exactly is "equal enough" to qualify as a homosexual (same-sex) relation. For example, a relationsship between a gay cisgender man and a gay transman who has no genital reassignment surgery would, both to the partners and the outside word, be gay - and, technically, heterosexual."
The problem is that this is really a usage guide (which isn't generally appropriate). Worse, it's telling people what should be done and how words should be used, and that's somewhat biased. I think it's reasonable to say that there are problems with the word (one could distinguish between same-sex and same-gender, for example). One could also comment if some transgendered people find the application of the word offensive, preferably with a quote. Martin
If you read it like that, then it definitely needs improvement. I merely tried to point out the problems the word homosexuality can bring when applied to transgendered people. It's not so much a matter of biased, nor are transgendered people (none that I know, anyway) offended when the word is used for gay or lesbian relationships. They tend to be offended, though, if the word is used for straight relationships, where merely the genitals happen to be the same, because "homosexual" implies gay or lesbian relationships, not straight ones.
This is pretty much the destinction between same-sex relationships (homosexual) and same-gender relationships (lesbian or gay) that you mentioned.
But, as I said, if you read it as being a plain usage guide, than the paragraph definitely needs improvement. -- AlexR 10:07 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)
What may also be interesting to mention here is that doctors and psychologists often use homo- and heterosexual respective to the birth sex of the person, whereas transgendered people themselves use the terms respective to their desired sex. This is important to keep in mind when reading reports from both professionals and their clients.
Kimiko 213.84.243.169 18:27 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)
      • Although few studies have been done, transgender groups almost always report a higher incidence of gay, lesbinan or bisexual transgenders than among the population as a whole. In many groups, straight transgenders are actually a minority.

I took this out pending clarification - a physical male who is transgendered might then be considered a female, and thus said female may be attracted to men, but not actually be gay, or said female could be a lesbian and thus appear to be a straight male. Also, is it so hard to start accrediting sources for such material? Susan Mason

A transgendered woman (a person transitioning to a woman) who is attracted primarily to women will typically identify as a lesbian; a transgendered woman primarily attracted to men will typically identify as heterosexual. Some researchers believe that a majority of transgendered people are gay vis-à-vis their target gender. - Montréalais
---
It is so hard accrediting sources, because there are few reliable "scientific" sources about transgenders.
Much research is done to confirm a theory, and transgenders which don't fit the criteria of that doctor are simply excluded. To make matters worse, these doctors also are often the only ones available who write letters of recommendation. So to get those, many transgenders have to lie to doctors to get them. The research coming from those doctors therefore is naturally flawed, because the data is flawed. (Most of the time, so are the premises.)
Unfortunately, that has led to a situation where many transgenders routinely lie to any doctor (at least any who might have something to do with their treatment). It's understandable, but unfortunaltely mares almost all scientific research.
And even completely voluntary studies are difficult - since often the questions are unanswerable. For example, many transgender people abort answering a questionary when the question "male or female" turns up - because they are unable to answer it. Are they supposed to put their gender identity in there? In that case, there are far more possible answers than those two. Or their birth gender? Or their current legal gender? Or their current genital appearance? Their overall appearance? And since this question turns up on about 99% of the questionaries, no reliable data is forthcoming from these studies, too. - AlexR 15:08 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)

'Transgender' seems to be used mostly as an umbrella term in the US and internationally. In the Netherlands (possibly in the rest of Europe too, I'm not sure about that) however, 'transgender' is used to refer to people who live as the opposite (to birth-) gender without SRS, by choice (ie. not due to circumstances). I think this is different from what is mentioned on the page already about 'between genders'. Kimiko 213.84.243.169 18:27 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)

I added a para, Kimiko. What do you think? be bold! :) Martin

Sounds good to me. Could someone (dis)confirm whether the term 'transgender' is also used this way in other European countries? ps. what about my other remark about the use of 'homosexual' above? Kimiko 213.84.243.169 08:50 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

Sounds like a good point. Add it to the article! :) Btw, feel free to create a username - you don't need to provide an email address or anything - it's really a very lightweight procedure :) Martin

How is this? Kimiko 12:25 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

Excellent :) Nice note on the article too - that should help clear things up :)

This use of "transgender" for non-op transpeople is pretty outdated. Those people now call themselfes and are called transgenderists. If the old use is still current in the Netherlands, it is definitely the exception in Europe (and the rest of the world as far as I know it).
However, sometimes some transsexuals refer to non-op persons of any identification, or even post-op people who differ slightly from the transsexual "standard" as "transgender" or any number of terms, to distance themselfes from anything they see as "not properly transsexual". That is however the use of a small minority, and it is meant to be very offensive.
I'll rephrase this sentence in the article. AlexR 12:38 18 May 2003 (UTC)

looks good - but do note that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, or a usage guide - it's always a narrow line between the two, of course... Martin
I know it isn't - but if a word can mean different things in different places (or contexts) one has to mention it - and a word like transgender is quite difficult. It can mean slightly different things, and the context does not always make it obvious which one is meant. Plus, it can be intendes as anything from a title of honor to a neutral description to a flat-out insult. I hope my edit today was still OK. I prefered to leave out the possible use as "insult" by self-styled "proper transsexuals". But in the German Wikipedia for example they started an edit war. Even more difficult to handle that one without violating the NPOV. It's enough if one side does that *sigh* AlexR 17:03 18 May 2003 (UTC)
"transgender" and "transgenderist" are used interchangeably in the Netherlands, AFAIK. Both refer to non-op transsexuals, distinguished from crossdressers by living full-time in the desired gender, and from "transsexuals" by not seeking SRS. -- Kimiko 18:41 18 May 2003 (UTC)
Just a question: How are non-ts transgenders called in the Netherlands, regardles of OP-status? Or is it still bottom surgery = transsexual, no bottom surgery = transgender, and everybody else is cross-dresser or transvestite? And if so, why? It strikes me as odd, after all the Netherlands are ususally regarded as both liberal and, for want of a better term, socially advanced. Just curious ... AlexR 22:55 20 May 2003 (UTC)
Yes, I think so. Do you need any more words then? There is not really an umbrella term like 'transgender' in Dutch, although some use 'transgender' for that because it's used that way internationally. Online, you often see something like 'T*' (for TV/G/S) or sometimes 'trans'. Maybe this lack of an umbrella term comes from the fact that there is not really a trans-community here. There are support groups for CDs/TVs or TGs/TSs, but rarely both. Or if there are, the two groups don't really mix. -- Kimiko 19:18 21 May 2003 (UTC)
For a literature example of the usage of 'transgender' I described above, see [1]. See also appendix A of [2] for a definition of transgender(ist) -- Kimiko 12:28 27 May 2003 (UTC)

[edit] "cathegories"

From Patsy (tg), Norway. "Cathegorization" of transgender persons is bound to be inaccurate. Trying to cathegorize transgender persons in the context of a dictionary, encyclopedia, etc., one shouldn't use the verb "is", but "may." When you attemt to reclarify the word 'transgender' by adding another, 'transgenderism,' it only makes things more confusing. (I would never understand it, despite a life-time of 'transgenderism.' [Is it a diagnosis, or a political ideology? :-)]) It won't work across cultures, not to speak of languages. An article on transgenderism must rely on good explanations, and some often used slang/terminology, not exact word definitions.

We can say that someone who might be transgendered might fit the definitions of transgenderism. They are not different words, just grammatically correct. To say that "someone is transgender", or that "the definition of transgender", it sounds very clumsy. However I agree that categorization of transgendered people into a strict definition is inaccurate, but I think the article as it stands carries forth this idea, that to say that someone is transgendered means that they generally fit some of these categories, but not that they always fit these categories . Dysprosia 07:31, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Vagueness

I could not tell at a quick glance, or by skimming, whether a "transgendered" person is someone who was born with both male and female sexual organs. So I don't know how to evaluate the picture shown at http://www.bakla.net.

The last 3 pictures look like a woman, who has a penis. Does this mean she was born a woman, and had surgery; or that he was born a man and somehow sprouted breasts; or was born with both sexual characteristics; or is it a trick photograph.

I like articles to be easy to understand, and if I'm in the wrong article to find out what I'm looking for, I'd like to be able to tell that without having to read the whole article.

--Uncle Ed 22:17, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I have not seen the images, but that would probably be someone who was born with a penis, and has later taken hormones for breast development. Penis construction surgery is rather crap. Morwen 22:22, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Clarified. Hope it's better. (A short note re your pronouns - you generally use the pronoun of the gender that the person is trying to present: the bakla photos have this woman trying to present as a woman so you would use she - "or that she was born a man and.." Or simply use gender-neutral pronouns or rewording. This is just a niceness thing.) Dysprosia 22:24, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Jill's edits

I am dizzy with the idea of freely editing the fine work previously put in on this article, and hope that I have only added, and not detracted, from the quality of the article. I am a transwoman in the United States, in the process of obtaining my Ph.D. in the field of "Law & Society." I am finishing my dissertation, which is on the adoption of transgender human resources policy in U.S. employers. This is scheduled to be completed next month, and you may see some of my work at http://jillweiss.blogspot.com . Please feel free to comment or to write to me at jtweissny@aol.com

Jill

Your changes look great. Characterising the politics around this term is not an easy task. Morwen 17:27, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)
Yes, they look fine to me. Nice to see more transfolk here @ Wikipedia.
If you want to stick around and contribute more to Wikipedia, I suggest registering a user name at the login page. See Wikipedia:How to log in. -- Kimiko 19:18, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Another big edit

69.229.44.225's edits had some good points, especially the issue of medical professionals pathologizing TG folks. However, there were a lot of typos, and the edits removed a lot of good content from the previous version. I hope the current version retains the best of both. Jiawen 08:01, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Usage and LGBT

I have just joined Wikipedia and am a ts woman in the UK.

Here the UK, the word Transgender seems to have a different connotation to that in the US in that it implies "choice" and speaking for the moment on M2F transgenderism embraces transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens.

As a transsexual woman, I find that I have little in common with the latter three categories in that people i those categories all identify as male, but "choose" to spend a proportion of their time, but certainly not exclusively, mainly by dressing in women's clothes. Whilst drag queens are generally gay men parodying women, and cross dressers are generally getting a sexual thrill, transvestites can have these motives as well as gaining genuine emotional comfort from expressing themselves as women. Being a transsexual person however is not a "choice" thing, it is a necessity for survival.

There is more commonality between these 3 groups and historic Re-enactment societies than with transsexual women in that their primary identity is male, whereas transsexual women cannot cope being male and suffer from a genuine medical condition, Gender Dysphoria. It is arguable whether a cross dresser or a drag queen has gender dysphoria and of the majority of transvestites few ever feel the need to "move over" as I like to describe it.

In this page, that distinction is not being made and it means that transsexual people are bundled up into one group that is so disparate that the definition is offensive to women like me.

If generalities are valuable, then why do the homosexual element in LGBT need 3 letters to describe themselves L - lesbian women, G - gay men, B - bisexual everybodies.

My rights as a transsexual woman, or rather a woman-born-transsexual or as I choose to use, a "woman with a past that was not brought up as a girl" is seriously diluted by the word Transgender and at present, not sufficient weight is given to the offence that word has to transsexual men and women.

In basic terms whilst the word "Transgender" had resonance when it was first quoted, and it is popular amongst the gender congruent, it is a terribly sloppy word that is carelessly used by the ignorant to discriminate against transsexual people and used vicariously by drag queens/kings, cross dressers and TVs to play "me to" and medicalise their proclivities to gain advantage at our disadvantage. This is not to say that gender variance deserves fair treatment and freedom of expression and freedom to live without discrimination.

I am new to Wikipedia and hope that the Lead originator of this article can give me some guidance as to how I might contribute to the article-proper so as to help correct some of the present americanisation of the term Transgender. --NikkiW 16:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

First of all, the article is not americanised. It might surprise you to hear, but here in Europe too transgender people have a right to exist, no matter how much a small group of uber-transsexual women would like to deny that right. Let's go bit by bit:
"Transgender" does not imply choice any more than "transsexual" does. Just look at the definition, and tell me where the choice is supposed to be. Hint: If somebody does drag or cross-dresses just for the fun of it, without any gender-identity related motivation, it isn't transgender. (Of course, there are also quite a few "proper transsexual women" who did cross-dress for quite a while, trying to convince themselfes that they were just doing it for fun, so the line can in practice be hard to draw.) That also means that transgender people do not identify as plain "male" -- oh, and BTW, thank you very much for ignoring transmen here and two times further down completely.
Gender identity dysphoria, BTW, was coined because the line between "transsexual" and "transvestism" could not be drawn so neatly and easily as you try to do now, so you might want an update on the definition of that, too.
This page also already states clearly that there is a group of transsexual people who do object to being classified as a sub-group of transgender, so you already are covered. (Although of course that makes about as much sense as a person stating that they are from London, but of course not from England, and that they are terribly discriminated against by anybody suggesting otherwise.)
You also whine that you are somehow being discriminated against by the mere existance of the word. Which is a triffle odd (and it smells a lot like the complains that heterosexual marriage is somehow invalidated by gay marriages), could you care to explain how that discriminates against you? And please don't say anything about "Transsexual people who are sooooo well accepted and those freaks trying to profit from us" because, well, sorry, but that is just not true. First of all, those people who object to transgender people in general don't like transsexual people any better. Secondly, the pictures of uber-transsexual women has made it pretty difficult for non-transsexual transgender people to get necessary medical treatment, because they were not yet another copy from that mold. Thanks god this is changing, but certainly that's nothing the like of you have to be thanked for. And thirdly, how exactly should transgender people profit from the association of narrow-minded, difference-obsessed uber-woman? Frankly, most transgender people - transwomen as well as transmen - are rather embarassed by the association, but well, just being trans does not mean people have to be nice, or supportive, or anything. It simply means they suffer from gender dysphoria, and nothing else.
Although at this point I have to insert a note for the benefit of potential readers which are not familiar with this particular problem: This group of uber-transsexual women are not representative of transsexual women (and obviously even less repesentative of transsexual men), and it should not be assumed that all transsexual women spend quite so much time discriminating against others and whining about how terribly they are discrimintated against by the existance of transgender people and/or the mere concept of "transgender". In fact, counting those I know, it is a small minority - but a very vocal one.
So, back to you, NikkiW - if there is anything valuable you can contribute to the article, feel free to do so. Inserting however your personal feelings about "them" into this article would be highly inappropriate, and a violation of the neutral point of view. Therefore, you don't want to wast your - and my - time with that. Thank you. -- AlexR 08:46, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
In my experience, 'transgender' is most often used as a category for people who challenge gender boundaries in many way - asking some of my UK crossdressing friends who have no 'gender issues' (ie, identify as their birth physical sex) reveals that they all identify as being in the 'transgender' group. It's become a very inclusive term, at least here (UK). The article worryingly doesn't seem to reflect this whatsoever, and does appear to be what is viewed here as a rather American view, although I must admit to having no idea about usage in the rest of Europe.
Obviously transsexuals are included in the category, though. But you obviously lack a neutral point of view yourself on the subject, and the last two paragraphs of your reply look worryingly as though you're trying to impose that view. Please be nice. - fuzzie 11:34, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear Alex. I am sorry that you felt affronted by my adding in the form of discussion, as opposed to direct editing, some viewd held not only by me but by many other women born transsexual in the UK. We are hardly uber anything, just sane women who are blessed with a modicum of intelligence and a strongly held point of view. Few UK transsexual women outside the clique of Press for Change subscribe to using the term transgender for themselves but as you correctly point out, the general population do group people like us in the same box, sad though it is.

Your inference that I am intolerent of other gender variant people is incorrect and as a lesbian woman neither is the sleight about civil partnerships, but I will set that aside, putting it down to an overzeaousness on both our parts to seek dissent for which I, for my part apologize. I have a few transmen friends and apart from their liking for testosterone (cannot understand it lol), our aetiology is all too familiar. I had no intention of marginalising transmen but in my opening paragraph to this dialogue, i DID say, "and speaking for the moment on M2F transgenderism embraces transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens."

That said, thank you for taking me to task about my discussion point and I took your views in mind as i re-read the article itself and on re-reading it appears to cover the subject fairly and as you rightly say, complies with the neutrality point of view for which Wikipedia is reknowned.--NikkiW 20:21, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear alex in the definition you state "Transgender" does not imply choice any more than "transsexual" does. Just look at the definition, and tell me where the choice is supposed to be. Hint: If somebody does drag or cross-dresses just for the fun of it, without any gender-identity related motivation, it isn't transgender. (Of course, there are also quite a few "proper transsexual women" who did cross-dress for quite a while, trying to convince themselfes that they were just doing it for fun, so the line can in practice be hard to draw.) That also means that transgender people do not identify as plain "male" -- oh, and BTW, thank you very much for ignoring transmen here and two times further down completely.

I afraid I consider your viewpoint/definition utterly incorrect. The orinal definition of transgender as used across europe and as the basis of its inclusion within LGBT was "people who challenge 'traditional' assumptions about gender".

It was designed to be a delibertly inclusive term recognising our history as part of the cycle of gender freedom movemnet from feminism to 'gay' back when 'gay' meant what we meant what we know as queer i.e. LGBT etc to the growing transgender movement. It was about recognising teh connection between transvestites, transexuals, drag queens. drag kings etc. It was about avoiding the intercine fights that split us apart. It was also about stopping in my community a bunch of typically white transexuals who had always had gender privalage on their side suddenly when faced with loss of said privaleges to scream victim, victim as they ran for a new set of gender privalages often in the form of hetreosexuality, sadly it appears in their shouting they have won. So as to your definition

Transgender as used since the early nineties has always been about choice and freedom, it includes transexual people simply because as a transexual woman I had no choice but to challenge 'traditional' assumption by transitioning, it also includes people who drag up for a lark. its an INCLUSIVE definition. you might like to look at the groups included in the LJ group transgender (which has over 900 active members!!) and how it defines transgender before assuming your assumtions are correct,

BTW I can cite all that i quote and when I have the time to learn to write and cite correctly I will come back and improve your work, its better than it was before however and I'm pleased abou that, but its still takes a surgical and very transexual viewpoint which is not what transgender is about. X_mass on LJ. btw I have been an out/loud transexual activist for nearly 25 years.

Please note that the division between transsexual and crossdressers has been a round a long time. At the same time there is a continuing division between transsexuals: those that believe that they are transsexual BEFORE their operation, but that their transsexual state is corrected by surgery, leaving them as simply women. The other side of the group identifies as transsexuals even after the GRS (gender reassignment surgery).

[edit] Just how inclusive does everyone view the term transgender?

(I am brand new to wikipedia here, so I am looking for how I can help)

I am wondering just how diverse people "define" the transgender continuum.

Let me start off with my brief description of how I see a "person" defined. It is quite common for people talking about this subject address three or more "attributes" people have. Sex is defined as what genitals you have been given at birth. Sex as an attribute is not a binary designation, as evidenced by intersexed and hermaphrodite conditions. Sexual Preference is defined as what sex you favor for intercourse. It too is not a binary designation, and I can think of at least four common orientations: Male, Female, Bi, None. Gender is generally defined (I believe) as whether you believe yourself to be male or female. I personally believe that this definition is wrong, and that gender is a continuum. Then, I also usually add in addition a fourth attribute. Gender Roles are defined by me as roles you like playing. Again, I believe that a continuum here is needed as well. What I mean by Gender Role is what would traditionally be thought of as what men or women would traditionally do. For instance, this could include items like "hunting" or "cleaning" or "raising the family" or whatnot. These, among many other attributes, might make it possible to "define" a person.

Now, looking at traditional history, I will try to make up two People: one Male, and one Female. (Please keep in mind these definitions are for discussion purposes, I am not trying to enforce any stereotypes or such.

The Male would have a male sex, have a sexual preference for females, have a male gender, and prefer the gender roles like hunting. The Female would have a female sex, have a sexual preference for males, have a female gender, and prefer the gender roles like raising the family.

Now, if one were to take those definitions as the de-facto standard, then theoretically anyone who diverges from those definitions could be (again, in theory) considered gender queer, or transgendered. For instance, under this view, then even a gay man or woman would fall under this catagory as transgender. Of course, I believe that the opinion of the gay community would be that this is not the case. (Please correct me if I am wrong there)

So finally, I get to the subject of the topic here. Just how far does everyone out there imagine that the transgender catagory spreads?

(as background, I believe myself to be a transexual woman. I say this even though I do not (cross) dress, have not been to a psychologist yet, and do not take hormones of any type) Srinity 23:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Dr1819 16:04, 13 November 2005 (UTC) I removed references to "cross-dressing" due to the changing understanding and delineation among the medical community. By definition, transgender implies crossing genetic boundaries, and includes either feeling like, desiring to be, or dressing as a member of the opposite sex. Cross-dressers wear between one and a few items of clothing of the opposite sex, but do not appear as members of the opposite sex. By contrast, transvestitic behavior includes desires of either being or appearing as the opposite sex, along with external behavior to that end. Cross-dressers, however, may wear one or more articles of clothing typically relgated to the opposite sex (skirts or heels, for example), but exhibit the same behaviours and characteristics of their birth gender. Thus, there is no "trans"gender issue. Men wearing heels, while different in degree, is no different in substance than men wearing earrings. Furthermore, there's a vast movement with respect to men wearing clothing (including skirts) that have traditionally been worn by men for tens of thousands of years. One need not venture too far back in time to discover that the typical attire of most men included skirts, hosiery, blouses, and even heels (commonly worn for nearly 400 years by European aristocracy between 1500 and the late 1800s).

Equating "cross-dressing" with "transvestism" does a great injustice to both men and women who choose to wear clothing primarily relegated to members of the opposite sex, but who do so simply out of fashion preference, rather than sexual undertones or any desire to appear as, much less become, a member of the opposite sex.


I dont think the symbol is all the approprate personally. It wreaks of "queerness" , which just wierds out straight people, and that doesnt do anybody any good. I sure wouldnt put that on my car, lest people heft bricks through my windows when i am not around. I think a good symbol would be simple, striaght forward, subtle and not to terribly symbolic. ( it's not so much that people dont get the symbolism, it's that they dont want to, and its often offensive to people )

[edit] Cleanup needed

This entire article is really not encyclopedic at all. It's full of exclamation points and insufficient definitions. I cleaned up a lot, but it needs a lot more that I didn't feel like I was up to.

I removed this entire section because I didn't feel like it belonged in the article at all the way it was. It needs to be substantially edited to meet the Wikipedia standards of quality.

[edit] Inclusive Categories

The way we included the subcategories of the mutually exclusive and partially exclusive categories, above, covers all inclusive categories.

I disagree with the smallish set sizes for each of these. I realize that the ultimate purpose here is to emphasize the diversity of characteristics possible, but limiting a given category to (for example) four variations actually has the opposite effect. There are not, for example, only four types of sexual characteristics; the truth is that there is a vast range of possibilities for each category.
I'd suggest that, instead of emphasizing concrete numbers of variations, the article should instead give a half-dozen or so possible variations within a category and use a lot of "etc." to emphasize how many variations there truly are.
Gender variation is not a matter of simple arithmetic, unless you consider operations with infinity to be simple. Jiawen 08:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Taking into account the total number of possible combinations listed above, we discover that the total possibilities of sexuality are between 4^4 and 4^5, or between 256 and 1,024, depending upon whether or not one has resolved their outward appearance with their desired sexual identity. Obviously, these categories are usually separate during the youth, of someone with transgender disphoria, but is for more frequently resolved during adulthood than it used to be.

The point is that human sexuality is far-ranging, and multi-modal. There are by no means just two categories, as has been previously believed, nor are there just four, as many still believe. Even psychiatrists and psychologists who've worked with the transgender community ascribe the number as between seven and twenty. Very few would ever consider there to be more than 100, much less 1,000!

When one sits down and does the math, however, it becomes clear that there are far more discrete categories involving human sexuality than the DSM-IV is aware, and this lack of awareness complicates matters endlessly for doctors, psychologists, and psychiatrists dealing with the many issues of transgenderism. It behooves all of us to re-examine the resources we use when making decisions affecting the lives of others, whether we're in the role of a judge, a lawyer, a policeman/woman, a spouse, an employer, etc.

Provided people adhere to laws concerning non-gender-related common decency (no bared breasts, genetalia, bad language, etc.), behavior (no assaults, rape, theft, etc.), and safety (no speeding, running red lights, wearing appropriate safety gear on the job), one's genetic sexuality, physical sexuality, sexual preference, desired sexual identity, and ultimate outward appearance should have absolutely nothing to do with employability, retainability, or promotability, much less anything to do with the legal system.

We're all people. Every last one of us, regardless of the factors mentioned above. Human beings, possessing both intellect and emotions.

We have much to contribute, and all attempts to curb our contributions merely hurt society at large. Think about it. While you're at it, please stop trying to pigeonhole us into some "category." You can't even ID a tenth of them, much less keep them straight! And truth be told, a significant number of you would fall into one of the many categories that aren't "standard," if we could peer into your own private lives.

Someone please rewrite this entry to reflect reality, rather than some poor reflection of the "blind leading the blind's" DSM-IV, which reflects what was known about 70 years ago.

Thanks!

[edit] Political construct

The concept of "transgender" is a very modern political construct located primarily in the United States, which has a known cultural bias towards extreme individualism. Somebody has to speak truth to power, even when that power self-identifies itself as "liberal."-- Naif 11:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Define "truth". Ambi 12:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to see your information on transgender being a "very modern political construct". I find this a bit problematic strictly on the grounds that you are making an assertion with an indefinite burden of proof. --Colin.weatherby 19:48, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I respect both of your comments, but at this time I have outside responsibilities that prevent me from addressing your intelligent and well thought-out resopnses. --Naif 12:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
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