Talk:Trakai

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The use of information (except for images on this website), taken from www.trakai.lt (a homepage built by Trakai Town Hall) was granted for wikipedia by Trakai Town Hall representitive, as it follows in this e-mail:

Excerpt from the email follows below. Anyone can get this email forwarded under direct request to darius_at_soften_dot_ktu_dot_lt or directly from Trakai Town Hall: info_at_trakai_dot_lt:

Contents

[edit] Original message

Laba diena,

galite naudotis musu savivaldybes puslapio tekstine mediaga. Sekmes darbuose!

Laima Balcytiene Vyr.specialiste

[edit] Translation

--- Hello,

you can use our Town Hall website text material. Good luck at work!

Laima Balcytiene Senior Specialist

[edit] Polish name

To reply to Darius' comments on my talk page:

Well, it is a commonly accepted policy to give alternative names to the cities that have changed names in the past. Such a mention in the lead section does not mean that the name is still in use locally, it simply informs the reader that there used to be some other name which she or he could find in books, for instance. Throughout much of its history, the town was referred to under its Polish name, most probably because it belonged to Polish-speaking szlachta. It was notable as a monastic centre of the Dominican friars (again, Polish spoken) and a centre of Bogusław Radziwiłł during the Deluge. Finally, until 1945 it was a part of Poland. Even now roughly 25% of local population are ethnic Poles.

All in all, the Polish name is by no means outdated. It is historical, but not outdated (not more than German name for Gdansk or Russian name for Kyiv. Also, informing the reader that the town used to be referred to under other names until not so long time ago has hardly anything to do with national pride - at least not for me. All in all, I'm putting the Polish name back. Halibutt 06:46, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

"Most probably" is bad argumentation - c'mon, please be specific, and if specific, please, put that information to the article page. Regarding reference to Polish name, it seems to me, that a alias Troki linking to Trakai article is fully sufficient. I still do not see enough of argumentation - even Dutch historic, but outdated "New Amsterdam" for New York looks more approriate than Troki for Trakai. Or even better, why not call Kyiv Russian name, because Ukrainian Ortodox religion centre is situated there. If no real argumentation is given, I will revert it back.
In my point of view, this is English wikipedia, not Polish - so let's leave Troki in pl.wikipedia.org, not here, since Trakai is the only acceptable English name for this city. It would be stupid puting local names in every language for each city - why Trakai should be an exception? DariusMazeika 09:55, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I'll be specific then:
  1. Until 1945 the offficial name for that place was Troki
  2. There are roughly 25 percent of people living there who still use that name
  3. The place was a centre of Polish culture for ages and the Polish name was in use at least since 16th century.
  4. As such, the place is mentioned in a plethora of English books under its Polish name
  5. It is best known in the world because of the castle and its ruins; most of the castle's inhabitants were using Polish, with Boguslaw Radziwill being the best known, I suppose.
  6. It is a commonly-accepted wikipedia policy to list the relevant alternative names if there's a chance that the reader might want to know it. I believe this is one of such cases.
  7. The New Amsterdam example is invalid, since the place was named Troki not 400 years ago, but 60 years ago. There is a difference.
  8. Also, other such places that have had their names changed in 1945, have their original names mentioned here in Wikipedia - Gdansk, Vilnius, Lviv, Wroclaw - to name but a few. I see no reason to treat Trakai differently
Also, exactly why the Polish name should not be mentioned? Halibutt 10:36, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
  1. Official - according to what? Official to Poland nomenclature or something else? And why not to write an objective history pasage, why untill 1945 bit was named Troki officially in Poland (I don't believe Trakai was named in any context internationally during that period.
  2. Roughly 25 percent using a mixture of Russian, bad Lithuanian and bad Polish and naming their place not Troki, as you would think, but Trakai. Troki is the official name for Polish senior turists only nowadays.
  3. The place is mentioned in a plethora of English books under its Polish name - no problem with that. But if to be specific, it is not an official name in ENGLISH - so why to mistaken people by mangled outdated name. It is posible (but I have no proves, so this is not an argument), that Troki has appeared much ealier of some strange phonetic mangle. I think it would be acceptable, if in the history passage it would be mentioned, that "after Lithuania was incorporated into Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, the town name in Polish sources was referred as Troki". Of course, it would be interesting to know, when this word first appeared in Polish written sources. So, this would make both sides (Lithuanians and Polish) happy and it would be historically correct, informative and not out of context.
  4. Current bare wording (Polish: Troki) is taken out of context & irrelevant to this ENGLISH article.
Do we need woting (by non-interested parties: not pro-Jews, not pro-Lithuanians, not pro-Polish) on this? DariusMazeika 11:44, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is quite common on WP to use historical town names (look at Kaliningrad, Klaipeda, Kosice). I undestand that Lithuania as a newly independent country features a somewhat increased level of nationalism and respect this. However I don't see why using a valid historial name for Trakai would be a problem for you while French and Poles don't have problems with using German names for Strasbourg or Gdansk. In case of Trakai, mentioning the Polish name is justified not only by the historical reference needs (as it was the official name of the town before WW2). As you might know there is a siginificant Polish minority in the town and Polish language and Polish name is in wide contemporary use locally. Also the Karaites living in Trakai use Polish language. Therefore it seems fully justified to leave the Polish name there, especially that it does not cost anything and only adds valuable piece of information. I also don't see any reason for not keeping this name other than satisfying some nationalistic pride. Lysy 10:40, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See my answer above - current version is out of context & irrelevant. DariusMazeika 11:44, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  1. Official in that it was officially referred to as Troki by the local inhabitants, the local government of Wilno Voivodship, the government of Poland and all other official authorities. The town was simply a part of Poland and no wonder its official name was in Polish.
  2. Hmmm... Your remark is a tad bizarre - hopefuly you did not mean to offend anyone. Or did you? If you suggest that those who declared Polish nationality in censae did it just for fun, then IMHO you should stop for a while and think of it again. If you have sources that prove that those who declared so in the censae are, as a matter of fact, not Poles but Polono-Lithuano-Russians, then please provide those sources. Finally, if you have some sources that prove that their language is not Polish but some crazed mixture, then please provide them as well.
  3. and 4. - just check the other similar articles we mentioned to see how this system works. Halibutt 12:52, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

Darius, I believe that the reason why Halibutt insists on mentioning Polish name is not "Polish nationalism" but an attempt to follow the same convention that was agreed for other European towns, that is to mention the historic official names in the header of the article. This follows the same rule that was applied to many of the Polish towns that were under German control, like Wroclaw or Szczecin and nobody takes any offence because of this. In fact it's hard to understand why Polish names for Lithuanian cities meet such a fierce opposition. It's good to follow consistent rules and conventions across WP where possible. Therefore I'd suggest to keep the article name as it is with official Lithuanian name and only mention name in Polish as historical for reference. I don't think it's relevant if Polish or Lithuanian version of the name was first, as quite likely the original name was in Ruthenian anyway. Lysy 16:57, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The castles

I thought the old (wooden) castle was built by Gediminas in 13th century on peninsula in Trakai, and Kęstutis built his castle in Senieji Trakai only in 1321. Is this correct ? Lysy 12:05, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is correct - it was built on the lake Galve pennisula in *14th century* (1321 if to be specific). But I am not sure if Old Trakai and current Trakai belong to the same article - will think on that when this mess with names will (ever) ends. I think, that some sort of constant agreement regarding international names on ENGLISH wikipedia between Jews, Lithuanians and Polish is needed, since people waste energy in this and cry 'vandals!', even iof they have not contributed a single line for aticles in question - typical old fashioned nationalism. Now I am sorting another problem - the genesis of Karaims. I have already fixed most of the changes introduced by some crazy nuts propogating and voicing Karaims that they are an Jewish sect of Karaites. Even if this would be true in any historic way (I will sort this out first), Karaims do not identify themselves as Karaites nor Jews (rather Muslims & Tiurks instead). Now working on this closely with Karaim representitive in Trakai DariusMazeika 12:41, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would suugest that Old Trakai is described in a separate article, as this is a separate town after all. Otherwise it's going to be confusing for English readers. Lysy 16:43, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Karaims

As to the Karaims - they are simply the followers of Karaite Judaism (born in 7th century in Mesopotamia). My sources say that the Central and Eastern European branch of the Karaites/Karaims are descendants of Turkic Khazars who first settled in Crimea (Evpatoria) and then were resettled by Jogaila and Vytautas, along with Tartars. Halibutt 12:56, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

But what about the genesis - are they the ancestors of Jews? If yes, what sources to read to learn more. How tricky... DariusMazeika 13:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I seriously doubt it. The Karaites adopted Judaism (or rather some part of it, mostly Old Testament, but not the judaic traditions or Talmud) some time in 7th century, that is some 1000 years after the creation of Judaism and even more time after the Jews appeared as a distinct culture. I believe reading more on Anan ben David of Basrah would be helpful. Halibutt 14:17, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

I visited the kenesa in Trakai on Thursday and got the "Outline of Karaite religion" booklet there (in Polish, sorry but this was the only language they had). This religion differentiates itself to others in that reading the Old Testament is its fundament. They do not accept any "external" books or comments like Talmud, New Testament or Koran. Therefore calling it a sect of Judaism would be far from acceptable. The author explains that the religion was born in the beginning of 8th century in what today is Iraq. Initially the believers were called ananites and the arab sources named the religion Ananija. The name Karaites started to be used in 9th century as it was better describing the merit of the religion. Lysy 16:38, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yesterday my talk with Karaim Cultural Association representitive Karina Firkovičiūtė was very productive. The concensus regarding genesis of Karaim nation is that they are NOT Jewish ancestors in any ay, the information regarding Tiurk origin is the correct one. The question regarding religion is much more tricky. Yes, Karaism is based on Old Testament, but they do not identify themselves with Judaism. I see ratio in this statement, because this like telling, that Christian or Muslim religion is a form of Judaism, too. Yes, the religion origin facts is clear, it has some common roots with Judaism, but I don't think it is correct to label them as a sect of Karaite Judaism. It's wrong, and even hostile.
This rises me a question, if labeling Karaims as Jews is a vandalism, or only a different POV issue? This looks disgusting and false, at least for me: [[1]]. I am not keen on this, please decide and act on the behalf of yourself.
Also regarding the passage "Some of the Karaims became wealthy and were admitted to the ranks of szlachta" - this is not true. There definetely have been noble & wealthy Karaims (there was one very influential, and well knowm as a servant at the family of Radžvilos, it would be very interesting to have his name on Trakai article), but there is no data, that someone has been ranked to. So I am correcting szlachta to just 'noble'. DariusMazeika 28 June 2005 09:40 (UTC)
Firstly, you might want to read this article. It gives a pretty good overview on the difference between the Karaite Jews and the so-called Karaylar-Karaites. To quote but a fragment: Alongside the Karaite Jews there is a second group who use the name "Karaite" or in their own language "Karaylar" (Zajaczkowski p.11). These Karaylar-Karaites are an ethnic group originating in Eastern Europe although their exact origins are a topic of much debate. It seems they are in part descendants of Karaite Jews, who left Karaite Judaism in the late 19th or early 20th Century. According to the Karaylar-Karaites themselves, they are descended from Tataric-Turkic tribes and they readily back this up with linguistic and anthropological evidence. Karaylar-Karaites are often confused with Karaite Jews and whenever this happens they are quick to point out that they are not Jews at all. . Anyway, these topics should be discussed in Crimean_Karaites article rather than here.
As to the admittance to the ranks of szlachta (there was no other nobility in PLC back then so saying that they were admitted to the nobility is equal to saying that they became szlachta), it seems probable. Note that many Tartars, who were in a similar situation and even inhabitated the same regions within the PLC, were often promoted to the ranks of szlachta. Among the most notable of them were the Chazbijewicz, Gliński, Korycki, Najman, Juszyński and Łowczycki families. It would be really strange if Karaites were except to that notion. On the other hand anything is possible in history. Halibutt June 28, 2005 10:16 (UTC)

[edit] Mass murders by Nazi in Trakai

Halibutt, you have to review your sources - they are very biased (I don't know to what, but these are the facts) and incorrect. I have contacted the official representitives of the Karaims and have asked, if there are known any facts or clues regarding mass genocide of Karaims during the WWII in Trakai - there have not been any. I believe, this was not the case for Poles, too (except Jews - WWII was cruel to them). So the sources you have used are under fire - please cross check the facts. DariusMazeika 28 June 2005 08:49 (UTC)

I don't think my sources are biased. They might be wrong here, but why biased? Also, it would seem quite strange if the Germans organized pogroms and mass murders in all towns of eastern Poland except for Troki. Why would they do so?
Anyway, this site (IE only) mentions roughly 3000 killed by the Nazis in 1941. This site mentions that there were some Karaite scholars who tried to convince the Nazis that the Karaites should be spared as they were not Jewish (check the section on Szapszal, Seraya Markovich). That would explain the lower casualty rate among Karaites from Troki. On the other hand the Karaites were but a minority in 1941, with majority of local inhabitants being Jewish, Polish and Belarusian. Also, many listed on that site perished in WWII as well. Same with those listed here. Halibutt June 28, 2005 09:53 (UTC)
According to this [[2]] and this [[3]] Karaims fortunately have been excluded from genocide by Nazi. Also, there is no evidence, that there have been a genocide of Polish in Trakai region. Also, number 3000 is very exagerated, when refering to inhabitant count in Trakai town (despite this number is too small for Trakai region as a whole - the real number confirmed in different studies conducted not only by Jewish researchers is 5000 of killed Jews). And I tend to believe, that locals have to know better. It can be the case, that the your source is using incorrect information, biased towards minimalisation of harm done to Jews and/or trying to whitewash participation of locals (Lithuanians and Polish) in the genocide of Jews. DariusMazeika 28 June 2005 11:31 (UTC)
Also, it is probable that among those killed in Troki itself most were Poles while Jews were sent to the mass murder site in Ponary. This site mentions that this was the fate of Jews from Landwarów, not far from Troki. Halibutt June 28, 2005 10:38 (UTC)
Your words are not proved by any research conducted. In opposite - only Jews are listed [[4]] (sorry, in Lithuanian only, I was unable to find again English translation, but it exists somewhere on internet). Why genocide of Poles in Trakai, but not in Vilnius or other nearby place? Of course, I believe, there have been a relatively small percentage of Poles, Whiterussians & Lithuanians killed during military action, but this is not genocide - the oficials and local police always takes the bullets first in any military action. And of course, there are other victims (like landmines, random bullets, rapes by soldiers), too. But genocide - I still have to see any prove. DariusMazeika 28 June 2005 11:31 (UTC)

Halibutt: I think these were Poles and Jews that were murdered in Trakai but not Karaites. Hakham Seraj Szapszal provided Nazis with a list of Karaite community in Trakai, letting them this way discover Jews with false Karaite papers there. Darius: There were thousands of Poles murdered in Vilnius along with Jews in Paneriai by Lithuanians and Germans. Did not you know this ? Lysy 28 June 2005 15:40 (UTC)

The study I have found and reference is very specific - it lists every place in Trakai region, where mass killings have been conducted, and very detailed numbers of victims (thanks to Nazi pedantic mania to documentent their actions, including wrongdoings) and who has conducted those mass killings. But there are no facts or evidence supporting POLISH people genocide in this region. Sorry. 28 June 2005 19:07 (UTC)
Indeed, out of roughly 100.000 victims of Germans and Lithuanians in Ponaren, more than a half were Poles, including ethnic Jews, Poles (roughly 20.000), Belarusians and all other nationalities. But such massacres happened all along the front lines, in every single small town the Einsatzkommandos arrived. In Kaunas itself roughly 10.000 people were murdered as soon as they arrived and the Lithuanian administration came from the underground. On July 26 alone roughly 3800 people were killed, which gives a decent testimony to what they did. Same happened in a plethora of places between June and December of 1941, including Białystok (2200 killed on June 28), Tykocin (roughly 1500 killed in August), Ponary (30,000 until December), villages around Bialystok (including several hundred in Jedwabne), Babi Yar in the Ukraine (30.000 on two days in September)... Odessa, Riga, Simferopol, Kiev... and so on. Halibutt June 28, 2005 16:38 (UTC)
I do not deny the massacre of Polish and Whiterussian and Lithuanian people (actually, a relatively very small percentage of existing populaton) by Nazi, nor the fact, that thoses mass killings have been conducted by locals, mostly Lithuanians. But the WWII has proved, that every left wing politicians and local authorities, not obbeing orders have been the targets of "pogroms" everywhere. And telling, that there have been genocide conducted against Poles (Whiterussian, Lithuanians) by Nazi, well, is an exageration, especially when comparing to Jews, when almost 90% (well, almost everyone unable to hide) of their population has been killed. What these remote places you list have in common with Trakai, let me ask? If mass killings of Poles have took place in Trakai, there should be studies done in Poland or Lithuania. While I was not able to find any, I still don't believe it have happened (except episodic kills by Nazi, which have took place everywere). DariusMazeika 28 June 2005 19:07 (UTC)
I already posted a link to the site mentioning 3000 killed in 1941, after the Germans seized the city. If you don't dispute that there were mass murders (this site mentions many more mass executions in 1941, including Słonim, Wilejka, Mołodeczno, Nowogródek, Wołożyn and others) and you don't dispute the dates, then what is it that you actually dispute, if I may ask? The number of killed? I'm afraid I have no sources at hand to shed any light on this matter, perhaps some local museum would have more info. Or perhaps it's their nationality? If so, then how do you distinguish between Poles of Jewish extraction, polonized Jews and Poles of Polish extraction? The Nazis did not differentiate, but perhaps you have a source that could confirm that there were no Poles killed during WWII in Troki? Halibutt June 28, 2005 20:55 (UTC)
We have to return back to the point we have started. I have found by chance, that one of the passages regarding the Trakai history in the 20th century was greatly inaccurate and have asked to double check them. I just have checked 2 statements of the passage - the nations under genocide by Nazi, and the count of victims. Both have proved to be false. I have found a very serious and informative evidence based study I am using as a base of my statements. Considering that all WWII mass graves have been studied in the Vilnius reagion by historians (I am not sure, but it seems that this study was funded by British embassy [[5]]), and there was no single reference I was able to find regarding Pole genocide in Trakai, I have suspended this statement. If I find a trustable evidence based one, I will put it back. Your suggestion to ask a Trakai museum historians is a good one - I will try that. DariusMazeika 29 June 2005 06:39 (UTC)
Ok, so what is wrong with my source? Your source says that 5000 Jews of Troki perished in WWII. My source says that 3000 people of Troki (of all nationalities) were killed in 1941, shortly after the Germans arrived. Is there any contradiction here? Halibutt June 29, 2005 07:20 (UTC)
Numbers, numbers, numbers. They do not match. I just have lift a UNESCO demographic report for Trakai, which states, that after WWII Trakai population has started increasing in 1959 there have been 3.1 thousands of inhabitants. Let's asume, that there have been the same population numbers before the WWII, despite in that period Trakai was more like a village than it was then. So if there have been 3000 killed, the place would be totally deserted and would be the WWII symbol we all would know about. Apprently, this is not the case. So I still maintain, that you need to recheck your sources. DariusMazeika 29 June 2005 08:16 (UTC)
In 1946 there were 19107 people registered for depatriation from Troki, with 5429 people finally expelled for Poland. So perhaps either your data is not accurate or the difference is between the actual town and the commune, which was densely populated. Halibutt June 29, 2005 08:55 (UTC)
Yes, this disambiguation can take place, but still, this does not removes the question, if the source is reliable - there is an obvious error, that Karaims have been under genocide by Nazi, which is confirmed by numerus sources being false, and even more, those sources state, that Karaims have been excluded by Nazi from exterminations by "research" (how weird and unhuman this sounds). When I will find time, I will get through that passage statement by statement, if more errors proved othervise by evidence will be found, I will fix them. DariusMazeika 29 June 2005 09:46 (UTC)
Neither the source nor my edits suggested that the Karaims were targeted during the Holocaust. What you deleted was a mention of purges during and shortly after the German invasion. It had nothing to do with ghettos, concentration camps and so on. Also, I admit that I couldn't find any proof for the killed being Jews or Karaims as the source mentions only Poles (meaning citizens of Poland). It is probable that none of those killed in 1941 was a Karaite. After all their number was really low, comparing to the overall population of the town and its area. Halibutt June 29, 2005 10:20 (UTC)
OK, this discussion is getting too leghty and too hot :) I am not ignorant to you nor facts and I do not want to argue for the sake of arguing. Let's leave this question open - if I find any person with a knowledge of WWII history and Trakai or any real data regarding Nazi occupation in Trakai will be uncovered, I will put that information here. So I hope you do. Anyway, I have a hope to find real data - WWII history was well studied, so there should be numbers on WWII civil loses in the region of Trakai. Peace? DariusMazeika 29 June 2005 11:48 (UTC)

[edit] Voruta link

I'm going to remove the external link to Voruta. Firstly, it's not in English so seems useless on English language WP. Then, Voruta is a highly nationalistic magazine and should not be referenced to as an objective source. OK ? Lysy 28 June 2005 15:49 (UTC)

Unfortunately my Lithuanian is not good enough as to tell whether the content is nationalistic or not. However, an English version would be much more interesting. Halibutt June 28, 2005 16:43 (UTC)
If to be true, rzech-polita.pl or is no way better if I will follow your mind regarding Voruta. IMHO, it's like wikipedia, where different opinions are referenced with a preference to nationalistic ones. Combine these two sources and we will have a balanced information source on Polish-Lithuanian issues :) The study I have referenced was supported by Jews, so I believe it is objective. It provides lots of documented facts and evidence and is worthy to have for people interested in details of genocide in Trakai region. I will replace it with English one when I find it again.DariusMazeika 28 June 2005 19:26 (UTC)
OK, you certainly can judge better if it's a reliable source or not. English language version would be helpful, though. Lysy 28 June 2005 19:40 (UTC)
It's seems, there is another similar study (about holocaust in Vievis) authored by the same historian on Internet only. I will try to contact her for an English version of her study on Trakai region. DariusMazeika 5 July 2005 09:33 (UTC)

[edit] Troki Voivodship

"Voivodship" is an English word for Lithuanian "vaivadija". There's not reason to use Lithuanian words instead of English in English WP. Lysy 28 June 2005 20:13 (UTC)

I would agree on that, except the "Troki", especially when regarding to pre-commonwealth time period.DariusMazeika 28 June 2005 20:19 (UTC)
OK. However the official language used there in 15th century was probably neither Lithuanian nor Polish but Ruthenian. Lysy 29 June 2005 07:23 (UTC)
And the Ruthenian name for Troki is.... Troki. Halibutt June 29, 2005 07:26 (UTC)
I still prefer original local name for Trakai. Then it was not a Rhuthenia, anyway. DariusMazeika 29 June 2005 08:16 (UTC)
That's fine with me. Lysy 29 June 2005 14:41 (UTC)
I understand Lithuanian national pride and if I was to decide, we could call it with the Traku Vaivadija neologism all the way from 15th century to the end of the Republic. I think we can back down on this one, though such a solution is far from factually accurate. Halibutt June 29, 2005 15:07 (UTC)
Provide me with not biased data regarding Ruthenians living in Trakai in prehistoric times and I will read it and this will change my mind. Currently I believe this is not the case, since archeologic excavations and water localities (water locality names is a good indicator of prehistoric tribes living over some place, since these names are less likely to change over time) do not suport your hypotesis. Based on data I have, I think this is nationalistic rant and nothing else. DariusMazeika 30 June 2005 06:52 (UTC)
Well, the problem with toponymy in our part of the world is that most of rivers have names dating back to pre-historic times and Proto-Indo-European languages. Because of that and because of the nature of Lithuanian language which has many similarities to the ancient root of all European languages, you could most probably claim that Lithuanians once inhabitated all Europe, from Spain to Urals and from Baltic to Italy. While this is a helpful source of information, it can be misleading. Unless of course you claim that the name of Vendée River in France comes from Lithuanian vanduo (water) and not Proto-Indo-European root *[vn-]. Halibutt 17:21, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tyszkiewicz palace on Galvė

Is there any quality picture of this? The current is hazy and blurry. DariusMazeika 28 June 2005 20:25 (UTC)

I don't have a better one. But this one looks quite all right on my screen (other than the dark, cloudy skye) and gives good impression of the architecture of the now renovated palace. Of course feel free to replace it if you have a better picture. Lysy 29 June 2005 07:17 (UTC)
Maybe using a larger thumbnail would help, if this is what you mean ?
No, I mean it is hazy - there is a light mist over the lake between the lense and object. This makes the photo romantic, but less informative on architecture details. I hope people will read this talk page and will find a better picture in their photo collections. (If not, I will try to take one on my next visit. God, I don't know when...). DariusMazeika 29 June 2005 08:16 (UTC)

[edit] Trakai

[edit] Karaims

Regarding the "jewishness" of these people it doesn't seem to make sense following your previoust posters logic.. and the whole process of qualifying as "jewish" is dependant on your mother being jewish...

I'm jewish myself, by definition, but contain less than 8% jewish blood - It's just I'm from a bloodline which has been carried by the mothers only, as a jewish father is not enough to make his son jewish.

Two travel books on the Baltic States report that there *may* be some jewish blood in them, but the lineage is simply over such a long time span its impossible to prove.

[edit] Trakai

I have lived in Vilnius often over the past years, and have taken many photographs of Trakai - copyright free, you have some really good ones there but I am offering the ones I took free of use if you want to use them.

I do not feel comfortable editing the article so will leave it to you

http://frankied.com/fotoexpress/usr/10/+2005-09-09_Trakai/ for the directory http://frankied.com/fotoexpress/usr/10/+2005-09-09_Trakai/22.jpg example image

[edit] Labas Lysy

Hi Lysy, just wanted to know the basis for your claim that Trakai has a considerably Polish population today? And what represents considerable in your mind? What happened to 42, Btw? Dr. Dan 18:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Come one, everyone knows this, don't you ? Or are you pulling my leg again ? Trakai, Švenčionys, Šalčininkai and Varėna areas have the largest Polish communities outside Vilnius and the district. 42 had to give way to Polish ultra-catholic-nationalism. --Lysytalk 21:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Humor me, and some others that don't know. All I got was an answer to what happened to 42. Again what do you mean, that Trakai has a considerable Polish population. I'm not pulling your leg, I'd like a statistic and a source. Dr. Dan 22:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Sufficient time has elapsed for a response to the question. I will remove Troki from the "lead", as per my explanation as to why, many, many times. Everyone knows this is not exactly "common knowledge" in 2006, nor an acceptable explanation. Sorry, but I'm not pulling anyone's leg either. Dr. Dan 23:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I thought we could trust Lysy, he knows well ;-) If in need of sources, see statistikos departamentas. --Beaumont (@) 11:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the link and do not confuse city and municipality. M.K. 18:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Would never say we couldn't trust Lysy. But thank you Beaumont, for providing the information I requested. I would like the statistics on the city itself too (you know the 5000 or so inhabitants of the town, rather than the area surrounding it). The link is very appreciated as it will further help me with my position. I would assume that your argument applies in reverse, and therefore Druskininkai or the bigger joke per Space Cadet, Birzai, won't need their foreign toponyms in the lead per your argument about Trakai. Since you like Statistikos Departamentas so much Beaumont, thank you and let's use it to help us in this matter. Dr. Dan 14:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh, go to lt:Druskininkai and clean up the lead :P (other wikis are in the need as well) --Beaumont (@) 16:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks again for the tip, this name in this particular article (which link you have), was added by annon...most likely from Poznan, Wielkopolskie. Anybody new contributors from Poznan? And it is very sad this is not the first time than annons from Poland adding their POV in different article across all wikipedia -FR,DE, RU and so on. M.K. 18:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Wonder why it is more controversial on enwiki than on ltwiki, where it was never reverted so far. .. But you're right, those Polish anons are annoying. Did you consider complaining about it to the Wikimedia Foundation? At least you can propose to foribid it on ltwiki, just to prevent such a vandalism. --Beaumont (@) 19:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Do you want Varšuva too? M.K. 19:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Did anybody ever speak Lithuanian in your ridiculous "Varšuva"? <unsigned>
Please don't drag beautiful Warszawa into this bagna, it insults me, Mieczyslaw Fogg, and millions of others. Dr. Dan 03:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Speakers of Lithuanian live there even today. M.K. 10:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Fine. Is the number (or percentage) of people speaking Lithuanian over history in any remote way close to the analogical number of people speaking Polish over history in Troki or Wilno for that matter? Get it? Space Cadet 01:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
In the logic of this section's discussion I have a few possibilities of responding, I do not know exactly which one to chose ;-) Did you find it on any wiki (pls note that I never cited plwiki)? Did you have some 30% Lithuanian minority there (now or earlier)? But, more seriously, if we were in twenties, or fifties, we could find other-language-names offensive. Now, it's 21st century. As for me, try e.g. to remove Breslau from the lead in Wrocław and I'll revert it. --Beaumont (@) 20:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Beaumont, do you find Varšuva ridiculous too? M.K. 10:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure he does. It's as ridiculous as not mentioning Polish names of Trakai or Vilnius. Space Cadet 01:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, Space Cadet. But I think you're on recent record regarding Birzai, and the dispute. Any change of heart there? Majority of it's inhabitants, blah, blah, blah? Dr. Dan 03:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah, I forgot. It's as ridiculous as not mentioning Polish names of Trakai, Birzai or Vilnius. Thanks for your support and continuous improvement of the Wikipedia articles blah, blah, blah, blah... Space Cadet 19:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, you forgot alright, the point was Birzai, kochany, and that per you, the majority of its inhabitants were Polish. Check out Beaumont's statistikai for an update. Btw, just love your little spaceship. Does it have a name? Dr. Dan 02:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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