Talk:Toronto/Archive 002

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[edit] Population

The population of the Greater Toronto Area is 5.2 million.

[edit] Early discussion

I am not new to research/analysis but am new to WikiWhatevers and cannot believe this mess. This page needs organizing, sources have to be included for anything and everything or the page is completely worthless. Why would anyone just take someone's word for something, like "over 5.6 million people (2005)"? Where did that come from? Where did "US $305 billion gross domestic product, CDN $360 billion" come from and if anything in USD is going to be posted then what exchange rate was used? But where did it come from, where are the sources for all of these allegations and which fiscal year is the alleged CDN$360 billion from? Most economies tend to be in millions of dollars and is it real GDP (based on what year in prices and chained or not) or current "dollars"/prices?

01-Toronto Division: 629.91 square km
02-Peel Regional Municipality: 1,241.99 km²
04-York Regional Municipality: 1,761.64 km²
05-Durham Regional Municipality: 2,523.48 km²
11-Halton Regional Municipality: 967.04 km²
TOTAL: 7,124.06 square kilometers

Source: Statistics Canada - http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/standard/popdwell/Table-CSD-PS2.cfm

Not 7,000 square km but 7,124.06. "Close enough," wild guesses that are not backed up by reliable sources amount to nothing; not that I consider StatsCON to be reliable but unless someone knows of a private surveyor's organization to verify the above then it's the best we've got.

But where is anyone getting updated "gross domestic product" information from for a bunch of municipalities (the "GTA thing")? No fiscal year is even stated, let alone whether it's nominal/real GDP in the usual 1997 "dollars" (prices), and is it chained from 1997 or not? Or did someone actually find current dollars at current prices for a GDP in the Canadas? And if anything in USD is going to be stated then post the exchange rate.

And which NAICS industries make up what in "the GTA" in economic output with percentages? www.2ontario.com has tons of stats, but not for the municipality of Toronto or the "GTA."

The most basic things to get together do not exist, with any credibility at all on the Greater Toronto Area page, which has to have the populations, population densities, unemployment rates, average household incomes, GDPs and in what NAICS industries, per municipality, as the very start of a template to mean anything.

It's not even mentioned that the municipality of Toronto out-populates all four "provinces" of the Atlantic Canadas and all three territories combined, or Manitoba + Saskatchewan + PEI + all three territories combined (with 154,905 in irrelevant residents of the municipality of Toronto leftover and the resident population is irrelevant due to how many commuters, business travelers, tourists and other visitors on average last fiscal year?).

The bizarre messes around taxation, the "Ontario" feds steal all municipal property taxes that the "municipality" of Toronto zones as commercial/industrial, "Ontario" Social Services, "Ontario" Housing do exist, but not in Toronto they don't and whatever 20% of the expenses of the "Ontario" feds happen to be to pay for "Ontario" Social Services, "Ontario" Housing, ODSP is taken right out of Toronto's (municipality of, unless otherwise is stated for this purpose) residential property taxes, which amounted to 37% of our MUNICIPAL residential property taxes last fiscal year, which resulted in another TTC fare hike to try to cover those expenses that nothing covers, quite unlike any other sane city in the world, let alone an alleged city-region, where they actually keep their municipal taxes and get shares of state/provincial and federal taxes to pay for things that municipal taxes were never designed to pay for: like public transit (the TTC's web site used to claim that the TTC was the 2nd largest public transit system in North America behind only NYC, in ridership, but not anymore, it lost ... Google +"vital signs" +toronto, 1,316,000 riders between 2001 and 2003, while service was cut and fares had increased 27 per cent since 1997, almost twice the rate of inflation -- due to the confederate feds stealing $22 billion a year on average (not returning its fair share to the "Ontario" feds) ever since they got their own budget deficit paid off in fiscal 1997-98 and half of that deficit has been run on the "municipality" of Toronto by the "Ontario" feds.

Why are we paying "provincial" or confederate ("federal") taxes in Toronto? A whole $90 million and change was sent back to Toronto via the "new deal for cities and communities" (due to the Stampede Town Hick Party; it was supposed to be "the new deal for CITIES" given that they're the economic backbones of the Canadas; but nothing puts up with what Toronto does; probably anywhere on the planet in any alleged "democracy") while $11 THOUSAND million was stolen by the "Ontario" (which Ontario?) and confederate feds in return for a whole $90 million and change of our own revenues back.

So what if it's going up to $100+ million next fiscal year? Another $1.1 BILLION will be stolen and wow, we get the decimal point back.

I'm just barely getting warmed up but will leave it at that for now. It's a mess, the Toronto page and the "GTA" page (what GTA? What say does Toronto City Hall have over the "T" in GTA?) other than the usual of blowing sunshine up arses for no apparent reason instead of dealing with reality?

S-Ranger S-Ranger 03:35, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] French-language in Toronto

A few mentions of the French language in Toronto striked me as purely POV. I have removed "Only 1.4% of city residents claim French (Canada's other official language) as their mother tongue." as it is as relevant as a mention that only 1.4% of Quebec City's population claim the English language as their mother tongue in an article about the latter city. Furthemore I have edited the mention of ESL, specifically "These students come primarily from Latin America, East Asia and German-speaking Europe with surprisingly few coming from nearby French Canada." Present-day Germans and Swiss are not emigrating to Canada in significant numbers. Moreover, people from Quebec would likely be attending French-language schools.

--- I understand what you say about why you removed "Only 1.4% of city residents claim French (Canada's other official language) as their mother tongue." from the article. I disagree with your argument, however.

For readers outside of Canada, I would think that the French fact of Quebec City comes as little surprise. But because of Canada's reputation as being a bilingual, French-English country, many assume that Toronto has a large French component as well. (I have personally met foreign visitors actually in Toronto who, having seen French language on highway signs and government-run liquor stores, along with French channels on their hotel TV sets, still had this assumption.)

I think it would be an interesting point to many unfamiliar with Toronto, or Canada in general, to re-include this information.--Harry 19:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How can I write this page in Another Language?

How can I write this page in Another Language?

  • Your question is not clear, but I'll try to help. Start by going to the List of Wikipedias. Select the Wikipedia for the language into which you want to translate this. Enter "Toronto" into the search box in that Wikipedia to see if there is already an article. it may be called "Toronto, Canada". If there is already an article, which is likely for Wikipedias in widely-spoken languages, you can edit that article to incorporate information from this one. If there is no article, you will have to create a new article, and then you can post whatever you have written in that language. Good luck. If you have further questions, you can post them here or on my talk page. Ground Zero | t 19:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sub pages

Some of the material on this page could safely be moved to sub pages. We have main articles for a number of sections, but material on the Toronto page continues to duplicate the material in these specialized articles. (my terminology may not be entirely correct here)-Dhodges 17:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree! I started to do this with Demographics of Toronto way back when, but have since been subsumed. :) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 17:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cultural capital?

I believe there is a mistake in the first paragraph regarding the internal link to "Cultural capital." When Toronto is referred to as “one of Canada’s Cultural Capitals” it means that the city is a centre of some specific activity; in this case, culture. It’s like saying that New York is the financial capital of the world. However, "Cultural capital" links to an article on Pierre Bourdieu's theory of cultural capital, where the word “capital” clearly means wealth, assets or advantage. Bourdieu is talking about cultural capital as opposed to human capital or money.

I would suggest that the link be removed.--OldCommentator 03:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that wasn't correct. I removed the link. - Randwicked Alex B 03:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Center of Universe snipe

Why is it ok for that to be in the article? Can it be verified that Western Canadians actually use that remark? John wesley 14:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I can verify that it is 'sometimes dubbed' "Centre of the Universe" (Rayburn, p. 46), but otherwise cannot. Perhaps for balance, we should merely note that it is referred to as such by other Canadians, not necessarily by those in western Canada for whatever reasons. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 14:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
When I watch TV, it's always some loud mouth Albertan, not a Nova Scotian

[edit] Twinnings

Are there any sources for the list of twin cities? I can't find any evidence for such a relationship between Toronto and Sydney, for example. JPD (talk) 15:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I've wondered the same thing. I have no idea if the list of twinned cities is accurate, or people have just added cities as they please. At least one entry was added by an editor who otherwise vandalized the article. I could not find any "official list" on the City website. Skeezix1000 16:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Fixed the Twinnings today using offical language (Partners and Friendships) and provided link to the source! It is funny...it took 3 emails back and forth to the city before they stopped sending me the link to Wikipedia!!! I finally got them to understand that I was trying to check on the accuracy of Wiki! Man...that list WAS wrong! KsprayDad 18:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
That's great! That previous list was really bothering me. Skeezix1000 01:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population comparison

Someone recently made a change suggesting Toronto is the 6th-largest city in North America, but then cited in the summary information about metropolitan areas. As far as cities are concerned, only Mexico City, New York, LA, and Chicago, in that order, have larger populations than Toronto; hence, Toronto is the 5th-most populous city in North America. If you want to cite info about San Francisco-Oakland or Washington-Baltimore, than compare them to the correpsonding metropolitan area (Greater Toronto Area or Golden Horseshoe). Mindmatrix 21:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

-->Conceded, and changes made accordingly to the Greater Toronto Area page. Additional detail on talk page for Greater Toronto Area.

[edit] Nighttime photo

Can someone source a different nighttime photo...the one used is at least 6 years old...If you look at the TO skyline it has different colours standing out (ie..the current photo is still showing the old Canada Trust logo on top of Canada Place and is bright orange...currently you would see a green glow)...just me being picky!


[edit] Established Date

Anyone know how to fix this...I've tried editing it but can't get it to work...

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