Talk:Torchwood

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This is a talk page for discussion of the article about Torchwood. It is not for discussion about the program itself, unless that discussion involves improving the article. In particular, it is not for discussion about whether or not Torchwood is a "good" or "bad" program; or finding out what "this and that" are; or what will happen after "something". Please see "Wikipedia is not a soapbox" and "Wikiquette" for information about the proper use of talk pages.

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Contents 1 Cyberwoman details 1.1 "of African descent" 2 Why LGBT? 3 The Severed Hand 4 What did everyone think? 5 Torchwood episode titles 6 Multiple torchwoods 7 Ratings 8 Suzie killed off 9 Outside the government? 10 Credible reference? 11 Nav box 12 Rhys article? 13 Torchwood Declassified 14 Move to BBC Two? 15 Fan sites 16 List of Torchwood supporting characters 17 Christmas Invasion 18 Cast and crew 19 RE: Torchwood Locations Website 20 Crossovers 21 External Links to sites 22 Random Eugene? 23 Year 24 Reference 27

[edit] Cyberwoman details

I've removed the discussion of the Cyberwoman from the "Overview" section, as it's really about only one episode (as far as we know) and it's also mentioned (appropriately) under "Doctor Who story connections". The debate over whether her Cyber-technology originates from the parallel-earth Cybus Cybermen or the old-school Cybermen from Mondas and Telos is really just fan speculation — fine on Outpost Gallifrey, but not good in a Wikipedia article. Insofar as it's been discussed in the press, I think that can be moved to the individual episode article Cyberwoman when that's created. Anyone disagree? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "of African descent"

Is her race strictly relevant in this context? Seems extraneous to me. After all, we're not saying "she is seen electrocuting Jack (who is of Caucasian descent)", are we? Dunno. (shrugs) Kelvingreen 16:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree; the reference to her race is irrelevant, although I expect it will be a moot point after the episode shows this Sunday... --Mister Six 21:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this was mentioned as their was a rumour going around that the Cyberwoman was going to be Yvonne Hartman, and this was to make clear that the Cyberwoman in the adverts did not resemble Yvonne. --GracieLizzie 21:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why LGBT?

Why is this article in the LGBT category? Makerowner 03:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

That category's description says, "This category lists television series that deal with or feature important gay, lesbian or bisexual or transgender characters or issues and may have same-sex romance or relationships as an important plot device." Here's a direct quotation from the October issue of Gay Times magazine:

"This is the next stage in my plan to make everyone on TV gay," Davies laughs. It's a joke, but there have been dark mutterings in some corners of cyberspace that Russell has a dangerous "big gay agenda" with his stewardship of Doctor Who and now Torchwood. But what Russell wants to do is to stop us thinking of TV characters as being only "gay" or "straight".

"Without making it political or dull, this is going to be a very bisexual programme," he explains. "I want to knock down the barriers so we can't define which of the characters is gay. We need to start mixing things up, rather than thinking, "This is a gay character and he'll only ever go off with men."

I think that qualifies the programme for inclusion in Category:LGBT television series (or whatever it is renamed). Specifically, it's the B part. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Although, upon reflection, the article doesn't contain any indication of this. I'll see if I can rectify that. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I've started a stub from that Gay Times article. I'm sure there've been other relevant mentions in the press; if anyone feels like expanding the section, please feel free. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about a couple of the examples given. It looks to me like Owen uses the pheremones on the guy to get out of a fight, rather than because he's attracted to him (although the fact he's prepared to is still significant), and the instant message log is in the context of Toshiko searching for Carys, so the "I'm looking for a woman" line doesn't really say anything about her sexuality. Daibhid C 20:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the Toshiko "I'm looking for a woman" example from the website is ambiguous, although the fact that Toshi is seen kissing a woman in one of the series previews does indicate something. But as for Owen: at the end of the scene with the blonde and her boyfriend, he enthusiastically calls for a taxi. The clear implication is that he's off for a threesome with both of them. I'd say that it's appropriate to include that one. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In a subsequent episode, 'Greeks bearing gifts' Toshiko has an affair with a woman (actually a female alien). Indisciplined 23:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Missed that bit somehow, sorry, you're right. Daibhid C 20:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd say the implication was that he was calling a taxi to escape. Jefffire 11:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I definitely wouldn't. The whole point of him using that spray was to get with them. I see no reason why he would have tried to escape afterward. If you look back at the episode, he was holding their hands when he called for the taxi. Domsy 21:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

And he's got a broad grin on his face as he calls for the taxi. Watch the scene again — he's up for it. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know; I read it as Owen heading off for a threesome. Kelvingreen 12:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If we're counting stuff from the website, Owen's background check consists of a number of messages from "past conquests", and a letter from the hospital or surgery saying he's in serious trouble for this. One of the messages is from a Jason. Daibhid C 14:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Severed Hand

In Day One, notice how protective Jack is of the hand, which he wouldn't be if it were part of a Slitheen. More importantly, notice how a version of the new "Doctor's theme" from the soundtrack to the new Doctor Who series plays on the soundtrack as Jack cradles the hand. It's the only connection to the Doctor Jack has; of course he's going to be protective of it. Kelvingreen 21:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Was it confirmed then, that the hand is The Doctor's?N.f.m.c 23:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

According to the Radio Times it is and they are usually a fairly good source when it comes to these things. --GracieLizzie 23:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, and the musical clue was pretty conclusive too. Kelvingreen 00:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Can someone who has access to the Radio Times issue provide the citation, please? Thanks. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Yup: Pg 12, 21 - 27 October issue. Laïka 10:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Have added a citation. Kelvingreen 12:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What did everyone think?

Well thats where all of next seasons (and probably last seasons) Dr Who Budget went.

So they added blood and an F word in the first 1 minute.. Oooooh... and did someone get an 'orgasm' past the 9pm censors for the second episode... it's so grown up and not at all a limp Dr Who clone but without a strong lead character.

;) but still nice to see it all set in Cardiff Bay again.. and not pretending its London for a change. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.152.46.79 (talk • contribs) 23:01, October 22, 2006 (UTC)

As much as I'd love to engage in a discussion with you. I am pretty sure we're not supposed to chat on the talk pages I'm afraid. --GracieLizzie 23:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Yep. I share your excitement, but I'd like to draw your attention to the second banner at the top of the page, that says:

This is a talk page for discussion of the article about Torchwood. It is not for discussion about the program itself, unless that discussion involves improving the article. In particular, it is not for discussion about whether or not Torchwood is a "good" or "bad" program...

May I recommend the Outpost Gallifrey Forums as a better place to discuss the merits of Torchwood?  :) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:15, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Torchwood episode titles

We seem to have a minor conflict about whether or not these titles should be in italics or not. For those who came in late, let me explain why Doctor Who titles are an exception to the MOS (which is a guideline, not policy, in any case). The original Doctor Who series from 1967 to 1989 was in serial format, and therefore the story titles are correctly placed in italics. When the Doctor Who articles were set forward, the convention was to follow this, as well as the convention followed in nearly all licensed literature (Doctor Who Magazine, and other reference works) to place the story titles, even the ones in the new series, in italics. The compromise worked out was that in dealing with articles solely within the Wikiproject, the episode/story titles would remain in italics, but outside, they would not.

The questions now, I suppose, are this:

a) Is Torchwood within the Wikiproject?

b) Should Torchwood episode titles be italicised?

c) Should Doctor Who story/episode titles within Torchwood articles be italicised?

These questions can be answered separately. I personally lean towards a muddy solution where yes, Torchwood is part of the Wikiproject, but Torchwood episodes are not italicised whereas Doctor Who stories mentioned within the articles are. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable to me, albeit, as you say, muddy: we would then talk about Terror of the Autons or The Empty Child, but "Everything Changes". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it may look odd if Doctor Who titles are in italic and Torchwood titles are not. Therefore, following the explanation of why Doctor Who titles are italic, I think Torchwood titles should also be italic. I think Torchwood probably is a part of the WikiProject. Anyway sorry for the mini edit war, though I suppose it's a good thing if it inspires these discussions. I just thought I should add that, if we/you do decide to change the titles to italic, then the song titles that are mentioned should still be in quotation marks. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 08:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, definitely song titles should be in quotes; that's got nothing to do with the titles. Well, if Anemone agrees, then perhaps we should fall back to the default position and consider Torchwood as part of the Whoniverse and italicise the story titles. I'll go ahead with changing that on the episode articles themselves for a start. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 11:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I think many members of the Doctor Who project (maybe I should join?!) are automatically using italics anyway so it'd be really difficult to change that, especially with mentions on character pages and everything else. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 14:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Multiple torchwoods

I have added a section about the multiple Torchwoods, but there are probably some errors. It may also be better in annother place. --Warlorddagaz 11:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ratings

Perhaps someone should add somewhere that the first two episodes on BBC3 set a new record for a digital-only broadcast ratings. [1]? --Amaccormack 14:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suzie killed off

This plot point is listed quite matter-of-factly in the Cast and Crew section; should it not be spoiler-tagged or otherwise reworded? This is definitely a spoiler for the large audience of potential viewers who can't get BBC3 and are waiting for the repeat on 2, or are outside the UK... Radagast 20:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outside the government?

In the doctor who christmass special the Prime Minister was shown to have direct authority in Torchwood, and persoanlly authorised the attack on the alien ship. Yet Captain Jack Harkness says that Torchwood is outside the government, was he lieing or is this a plot hole?

Actually, no: in The Christmas Invasion, while Harriet gave the order to fire, it was earlier established that the Prime Minister isn't even supposed to know about Torchwood, so there's no real contradiction. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 10:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Credible reference?

So I'm s'posing we're all considering Toshiko Instant Messenger Transcript as a credible source of information? DrWho42 06:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's off an official website, which is plausibly (but debatably) canon. Mind you, following RTD's statements, the whole issue is moot anyway. Laïka 10:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nav box

Should there be a separate nav-box for Torchwood. Really, articles such as List of Torchwood episodes and List of Torchwood monsters and aliens should be in a Nav box, but putting them in the Doctor Who navbox would be too cluttering and irrevelvant for 95% of Doctor Who content. Laïka 10:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact, I've just found Template:Torchwood, but it's an ugly little navbox. I'll try to improve it. Laïka 10:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rhys article?

Given that he appears in more than one episode should Rhys Williams get an article, he looks like he is going to be a regular (it is Rhys who is Gwen's boyfriend right? I keep getting confused over names). Also what about Gwen's former police partner (PC Andy?) he appears in both episodes but I am not so sure about him as his appearence in Day One is very brief and I don't know if we'll see him again. --GracieLizzie 13:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

My personal feeling is "wait and see". If Rhys gets developed as a character, he should get his own article. If he simply appears at the beginning and end to remind us that Gwen has a normal life, there's probably not much to say about him that wouldn't fit in her article. Daibhid C 14:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, for now I've created a redirect page at Rhys Williams (Torchwood) and I am going to add some info about him to the Gwen article. --GracieLizzie 14:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

What is Rhys' job again? For now I've put transport manager but I don't think that is exactly right. --GracieLizzie 15:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Torchwood Declassified

I think there should be an article or at least a section about the Declassifieds, since they are the TW pendant of the Doctor Who Confidentials, is there someone who'd like to write one? --Salocin 23:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to BBC Two?

Can anyone confirm or deny that Torchwood is moving from BBC Three to BBC Two? Media Guardian story on possible move to BBC Two - registration required. Any help would be appreciated. Alex 05:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

It's just a rundown of viewing figures for the BBC2 showing ("2.8 million viewers and attracted a 13% share between 9pm and 10.40pm"). There's nothing about a permanent move. Kelvingreen 16:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, what does a "move" mean? It seems like (and since I don't get digital channels I'm very pleased) the plan is/always was first broadcast on BBC3 on Sunday night, repeat showing on BBC2 on Wednesday night. Does this mean it's a BBC3 show, which is repeated on BBC2, or a BBC2 show which is previewed on BBC3 (like QI - every Friday the announcement comes up "now switch over to BBC3 if you want to watch next week's show now")? And does it matter?

Contrast Jack Dee's new sitcom, Lead Balloon, which has been shown on BBC3 for several weeks, and following its popularity has been given a BBC2 slot following Catherine Tate's new series on Thursday nights. PaulHammond 14:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The usual method when it's a "BBC2 show which is previewed on BBC3" is to have the first episode on 2, then the next week's on 3 immediatly after (like Spooks). I'd say Torchwood is a BBC3 show repeated on 2, but as you say, it doesn't really matter. ;) Kelvingreen 18:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

reading the Guardian article, it seems like too much is being read into the word "move" - the article is only about viewing figures, and the "move" to BBC2 is just to make sure we are clear on which showing's viewing figures the article is talking about. Looks like this season is always going to be BBC3 on Sunday, BBC2 repeat on Wednesday... PaulHammond 14:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fan sites

WP:EL says "If there are many fansites for the topic covered by the article, then providing a link to one major fansite (and marking the link as such) may be appropriate." We should discuss what one site is the most comprehensive and appropriate for inclusion. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:EL is currently undergoing a rewrite. Or an edit war, depends on how you look at it. (Note the protection notice at the top of the page) I wouldn't recommend making the page compliant with that particular guideline until the dispute is resolved. -- Y|yukichigai 07:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Is the "torchpod" fan information "significant"? It seems to be a Yahoo group linked to a Myspace account, and is aimed at "female fans of Torchwood". Doesn't seem to be a comprehensive fan community, nor that big a group. I would think it should probably be removed - especially as no discussion per the notice in the edit text is to be found here. - Vedexent (talk) - 01:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Torchwood supporting characters

I've just created this cos we need a place for Suzie and Rhys. I didn't know what to write about Rhys though. Also I didn't know what to call the article so I named it after the Doctor Who article. I hope that's ok :-) — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 13:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, now we've got a fork, since Suzie Costello is now under List of Torchwood villains. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 14:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

D'oh. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christmas Invasion

Shouldn't The Christmas Invasion be included as a related Doctor Who episode in the Torchwood Template section? StaffanBaloo 14:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably. I'll fix that little oversight now. DonQuixote 19:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cast and crew

Why are we creating forks within this article? Isn't it simpler just to have a bare listing of cast and characters, pointing to the individual character articles and merging the information? Not to mention that there are some POV and speculative issues with the material here as it stands. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 01:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Because this article is a summary, and "forks" already exist in that there are article for the characters already. Either move everything here and eliminate those article, or put summaries here and migrate the information to those articles. Copying the character articles material here, duplicating information, is wasteful, and leads to "version drift" as people can update one place, or the other, but often forget to update both - Vedexent (talk) - 01:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree: what's here should be a summary of the full content at the characters' articles. We should treat the character pages as spin-outs from the main Torchwood article. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

That's my point - in fact, we don't even need summaries. For Doctor Who it makes a bit more sense because there's one main character. For an ensemble, it's really cluttery. Look at Stargate Atlantis, for example: just a simple cast listing, with links the individual articles. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:11, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm creating the table now; then I'll look at how the information earlier added can be merged with the respective character articles. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've merged some information which to my mind is relevant and not already present to Jack Harkness (his having been around since 1960), Gwen Cooper (her personal life) and Owen Harper (his apparently skewed moral sense and his relationship with Toshiko). The other bits didn't really include stuff that was pertinent or are speculative (Ianto's character, particularly, at least until Cyberwoman airs). --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I should have read your original objection better. The table idea is a good one - Vedexent (talk) - 15:11, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the table, which Zythe had removed as "pointless". I thought the table was a good idea, and had support here; if anyone disagrees, let's talk it over. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I had noticed that the table had gotten 'snipped' - but as I was on my way out, I didn't have time to redress it. I see the table is back. I think that objections might be made for it being a table and that the information might be incorporated into the text as prose, but Zythe had simply deleted the information; there were no longer easily found links to the character pages. I think the table works fine; I think the prose idea would work as well - but please don't remove information from the article like that. - Vedexent (talk) - 23:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Torchwood Locations Website

I am really sorry if I have offended anyone but I tried to add an external link to www.torchwoodlocations.com a filming location website but it has been removed. Can I ask why.

Thanks for your time

J cuff 11:06, 14 November 2006 (UTC)James

If you check the edit log, the charge labeled against the inclusion of the link was that it constituted spam. While the site itself doesn't seem to be spam-based, it is positively loaded with banner ads. Each page seems to have Google Adsense, an Amazon box, and an Expedia banner, even if the content of the page is simply an episode index. This seems to be overkill, and leads one to suspect that the site's main purpose is to garner advertising revenue. Hence it will probably be considered Spam my many, and as Wikipedia is not a website promotion tool, the link will probably be removed. - Vedexent (talk) - 14:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crossovers

We have a portion of this listing saying there won't be any "overt" crossovers between Doctor Who and Torchwood, but it has been revealed there WILL be with the Captain Jack Harkness character doing three episodes on "Doctor Who," playing the same character that he does on Torchwood.

The actor who portrays him says this will be the only type of crossovers planned for the two shows, but they will in fact be crossovers (see: http://www.syfyportal.com/news.php?id=3008)

SyFyMichael 05:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The 'no crossovers' announcement was always meant to mean 'no story crossovers' - nothing left dangling on one show that is resolved on another. Character crossovers are a given, at least with Jack - he's crossed over from DW to TW, and will soon cross back (and back again, if casting for Series 2 is correct). Radagast 18:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links to sites

Would it be possible to add a link to my site? it did used to be linked on wikipedia but was removed for some reason, yet you have other fan-made sites listed. Why not this one?

Webmasterb 11:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia external links guideline used to say one fansite per subject was acceptable, but that requirement seems to have been dropped. I'm not sure what the current guideline for fansite links is, but I believe that the general consensus is that they should be limited to the most popular (as determined by an Alexa search). Not sure where that puts The Institute, but that should give you and others the ability to make the determination of whether to include it or not. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well a search like that traffic ranks it at 437,855 which puts it directly after torchwood.tv on the search results and pages before some of the other sites currently listed. But do you judge on traffic or page rankings?Webmasterb 20:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If that is your ranking then your website is non-notable; also read WP:COI. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 20:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine, at least I know. But how come the other sites are considered more valid then when some of them have even worse traffic/page rankings than The Institute? There doesn't seem to be any continuity in the way your rules are applied and it;s ever so confusing. Webmasterb 20:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry; Some users just appear and stick a link in, most users just ignore them, I however have just purged it of links and do try to revert additions of links when I see them, I've left one external link (Which to my knowledge is apprently the most visited TW website - Its my opinion it shoudl go as well..) per WP:EL. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 20:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Random Eugene?

The BBC website now gives the title of Invisible Eugene as Random Shoes Here, as does the Radio Times, but Press Office report still calls it Invisible Eugene. Should the pages be updated to reflect this, or not? Laïka 18:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Year

I've reverted the following, added by 81.101.30.176:

based on a comment Owen Harper said in Greeks Bearing Gifts it was confirmed that the series was set in 2009.

There was no reference specifically given for it, although if it's correct and there's a proper reference it would be great to have confirmation of the year the series is set in. Wibbble 14:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think they mean the bit where Tosh claims the skeleton has been buried 196 years, 11 months, which, assuming the 1812 prologue took place after January, would put the episode in 2009. However, as Tosh says, the earth has been disturbed, and she can't be more accurate. Laïka 18:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference 27

Is broken, it's missing a title, I'd fix it myself but I don't know what the article titles should be... also if it is two articles are being referenced here shouldn't we use two instances of the cite template and not one? --GracieLizzie 16:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)