User talk:Tombseye

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[edit] Help

Hey Tombseye,

Can you please join the discussion here? (At the very bottom of the page) Thanks! —Khoikhoi 20:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congrats

The Working Man's Barnstar
Tombseye is awarded this barnstar for his outstanding work on Azerbaijani people, Iranian peoples, and Turkish people. :p (As well as the fact that he was able to address everyone's concerns about the article). Great work! —Khoikhoi 02:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shirin Ebadi

Do you have a reliable reference about the ethnicity of Shirin Ebadi? Once I tried to find if she is azeri or not. but even in her autobiography she has not mentioned that she is an Azeri. Be careful she might not be Azeri--behmod talk 03:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Image

Please see here: [1] Grandmaster 09:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Azeris in Iranian cinema

Hello again. Any advice and info. on Azeris in Iranian cinema? I need to add a little about this topic to the Azeris section on culture. Your input would be appreciated. Thanks. Tombseye 19:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tombseye, Thanks for your offer to re organise the article on Azerbaijani People and apologies for my delayed response, I will try to assist in any way that I can. I’ll look around for photos.

Regarding Azerbaijani Cinema in Iran, if you mean producing films in Azeri, it is none existing in Iran. Perhaps you can write about depiction of Azerbaijanis in Iranian short films and movies. Iranian short movies have been relatively successful in recent years, and almost all of these movies are made with direct initial endorsement of the Islamic government (Ministry Of Culture ) of Iran. You may know that the issue of language and ethnicity being a rather touchy subject in Iran, is not easy to get permissions in production of films in Azeri (Turkish), Arabic or other non Farsi/Persian languages.

In some Iranian movies and short films one might find an occasional depiction of stereotyping of a "Tork" (Azerbaijani) usually in some supporting role and most of time in negative characters. For instance Iran Daily writes [2] :

The film looks like Eastern European films and at the same time presents the Azari culture of northwestern Iran. Azari culture of the characters is evident from the behavior of the cast. For example, the brother of Reyhan’s late husband is depicted as a greatly prejudiced person ....

The above mentioned government run Iran Daily was in center of a controversy over the publication of an article and a cartoon which Turkish speaking Iranians in general and specially Azerbaijanis find quite offensive and led to large anti government demonstrations in most cities of north west of Iran, and Tehran.

Some links for articles and photos on the extents of protests and analysis of the it's cause :

Hope it helps. Please let me know if I can assist on any part of the article. Mehrdad 15:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Azerbaijani people

I think we may need to cover another aspect of Azerbaijani people. Since Azerbaijan was one of the earliest centers (if not the earliest center) of oil industry, Azerbaijanis are well advanced in the oil business. For example, first minister of gas industry of the USSR was an Azeri Sabit Orujov, the huge oil reserves of Siberia were discovered by academician Farman Salmanov, and now most of the profit to the Russian state budget comes from Siberian oil, and the president of the leading Russian oil company Lukoil is Azeri Vagit Alekperov. He is rated by Forbes magazine as Russia’s tenth richest person, and 122nd richest person worldwide. I understand that the article size has its limitations and you cannot include everything in it, but maybe this also can be reflected as a line or a couple of lines. Grandmaster 18:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've removed two so far, but I'll let Babak stay, we should ask User:Brandmeister about that one. As for theh barnstars, there's no rules! :D
I'm going to ask a friend of mine if he could let us use some of his images when he doccumented the Nagorno-Karabakh war, hopefully he can have some images of Azeris. Ciao. —Khoikhoi 20:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
ok, you can go ahead and do that right now, I'll email my friend. —Khoikhoi 20:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't forget about the History of Armenia! And now you've made the Armenians page look like a stub. Shame on you. —Khoikhoi 20:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with putting Babak into the Azerbaijani people page, because that article is about the present-day Turkic Azerbaijanis. Babak was neither Turkic nor Turkic-speaking. Thus, he rather qualifies for the Tati people article, but not for the Azerbaijani people article. The same goes to various other personalities wrongly classified as "Azerbaijanis", such as Nezami. That's like classifying personalities, such as Rumi or Avicenna as "Afghans" (which is a synonym for Pashtun), only because they were born or lived in what is present-day Afghanistan. If that were the case, then "Avicenna" would have been an "Uzbek", because he was born in what is now Uzbekistan, and Mahmud Kashgari a "Chinese" because he was born in Kashgar (now in China). So either we "expand" the Azerbaijani people article to an extent that is does not focus on the Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanis anymore, or we leave those people out of it. Grandmaster will of course disagree, but if we were to call everyone "Persian" who lived in "Persia" or everyone "Russian" who lived in "Russia", then the Seljuqs would have been "Persians" and not "Turks", and those Azeri academics would have been "Russians". Tajik 21:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic groups

Hi, I notice you have an interest in ethnic groups. Have you seen the Joshua Project - it's a project intended on compiling data on all ethnic groups on earth, so as to convert them to Christianity. You should check it out, as least for its population statistics. --Telex 21:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FYI...

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#User:Shervink_reported_by_User:Khoikhoi. —Khoikhoi 00:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem, he just got blocked. —Khoikhoi 01:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You might want to reply to this. —Khoikhoi 17:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I've contacted two admins so far, still haven't heard anything from them. :( —Khoikhoi 22:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
BTW, have you seen this? I say delete! —Khoikhoi 22:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Haha, I'll keep an eye on the page. Sure, I'll upload at least one image right now. —Khoikhoi 23:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irano-Afghan

I thought Irano-Afghan was still a valid subdivision of the Caucasoid racial type, prominent in Iran, Afghanistan, and parts of Pakistan. I added it because I thought it would be a key point in the explanation of Afghan racial and genetic origins. Afghan Historian 20:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

hiya tombs sorry for the delay in replying..thanks for all the input. yeah the original 2000 ad crowd were and are some of the best comic writers around..although I am a huge fan of jm demattis and keith giffens and used to love their jla work..I read you are a galactica fan too..quality stuff! I am impressed! anyway..take care and keep in touch Zak 23:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] stuff

It seems, Tombseye, that you and I share a lot of common tastes when it comes to movies and books. I also like Raiders of Lost Ark, Lawrence of Arabia, Good, Bad Ugly, and Seventh Samurai. I'm also a big fan of Crime an Punishment, (in my opinion, the second best novel in the Russian language, after War and Peace). I'm also a really big fan of Camus, (however, I like The Plague better than The Stranger). And, until I saw your list, I hadnt met anyone who shared my love of Naguib Mahfouz's Cairo Trilogy. In terms of English literature, I'm into Victorian and early 20th century stuff, like Dickens, Austen, Thackeray, Eliot, Hardy, Trollope, Shaw, Wells, Forster, Woolf, Joyce, Evelyn Waugh and (especially) Graham Greene. I've read G.G. since 8th grade and The Heart of the Matter always manages to reach my top 10 after every revision. I also like Salman Rushdie and VS Naipaul as well as Hanif Kureishi, Ian McEwan, JRR Tokien and the Harry Potter books (Since middle school). When I was still in school, I used to be a real bookworm. Anyway, does any of that stuff appeal to you? And, did you ever do debate in high school? I was a debater at my high school, and I did Policy Debate, which I found rather fun. That turned my attention to postmodern philosophers like Foucault and Heidegger and Being and Time also happens to be a favorite as well. Well I gotta go, so see you later. Just thought I'd chat. Afghan Historian 01:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Azeris

*Sigh* it appears another edit war broke out on this page when Tajik objected to the Safavids' Turkic connection. Also, can you have a look at these changes made to the article? Ciao... —Khoikhoi 18:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

How can we protect this page? 69.196.164.190


Some of the new changest are actually very unacademic. Please see my comments! --Ali doostzadeh 04:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Well you have done a good job.. and I am sure you have learned a lot as well. I Would read those two Iranica articles and give them primacy over unacademic sources and make sure the statements in the article do not contradict it. I think some of the Azerbaijani authors might have a problem with the fact that Armenia is the first state to adopt Christianity and they might want to give the credit to caucasian Albania. Although definitely not a polemical discussion I want to get involved in, but I would just put one or two quotes about Christianity from the Iranica articles I mentioned and erase any unacademic sources. I even put the pg number.. Also you might consider locking the article after making those changes.. BTW not add to your headache, but in the past few days extensive genetic results has come through some Persian media sources about Iranians and Azerbaijanis. These were done through Cambridge university and by some Iranian Azerbaijani scholar doing his Phd these. Suprisinly he found out that Azarbaijanis are genetically the same as Persian speakers and are more distant to Anatolian Turkic speakers... If you want I can translate and provide that information as well. --Ali doostzadeh 05:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you talking about the Iranica article? All of it is there and I can email it to you if you wish. Try IE explore and instead of open, do a save-as and then save each page. Then if you have Acro-bat professional, you can merge them into one easily available pdf. Also the source for that article, ISNA (Iranian Students News Agency) , 06-12-2006, news-code: 8503-06068 . I have emailed the relavent group in Cambridge University to get more updates as well. But I think what I provided is sufficient. --Ali doostzadeh 07:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Azari

I think you should also add something on the big difference in self-perspective and discribtion of Iranian Azaris and Azaris from the Republic of Azarbaijan. The ones in Iran mostly view themselves as Aryans and ethnic Iranianc/Iranic while the ones in the the Republic mostly view themselves as a mixed Turkic people. 69.196.164.190

This I commented on a different page. Meanwhile, because some insist to mention both the name and alleged ethnicity of the cartoonist, Mana -- which Azerbaijani sources admit that he could be only half-Azerbaijani, in any case this Mana guy is from Tehran, which has obviously population from all over Iran -- then identifying by name and ethnicity of the Editor in Cheif, Mehrdad Qasemfar, is also appropriate. Iran's state propaganda agency while announcing Mana being ethnic Azeri, did not do that for the editor, which means he is definitely Persian. This, it should be mentioned on Wiki page. Same goes for some short background info on the newspaper -- that it's Farsi-language, that it's 3rd largest in Iran and it is state-run.

That's why this line should be put back into the paragraph: "and Mehrdad Qasemfar, the Editor-in-Chief of the Farsi-language newspaper "Iran", which is the third largest state-run publication in the country, were dismissed from their positions". Best, --AdilBaguirov 05:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually the ethnicity of Mehrdad Qasemfar is not clear. I have heared he is Azerbaijani and so is about 70% of Iran's newspaper. I will look into this issue more. --Ali doostzadeh 06:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
If Qasemfar were to be Azerbaijani, the ISNA would have mentioned it along with Mana. Instead, in one sentence mentioning both, it alleged only Mana as ethnic Azerbaijani, whilst kept mum about the editor. --AdilBaguirov 07:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The thing is that it is not a bid deal in Iran to be Azerbaijani. Specially in Tehran where many of the Persians are actually 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants from other provinces and Azerbaijani in particular as well. Many of these jokes are actually made by Azerbaijanis living in Tehran. But I will look into Qasem far.. but I am not 100% and one can even be 1/4 Azerbaijan and 3/4 others and etc.. Also Ayatollah Khaemeni is definitely Azerbaijani, since his last name is Khaemeni (which means his father is from that town of Azarbaijani ) and also I read somewhere that his father did not speak Persian. --Ali doostzadeh 07:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry guys you can not judge the ethnicity of someone from their name but from a report. There are many non-Persians with Persian names and vice-versa. Verify the information. It really seems here like propganda is being spinned, which is sad and awful. 69.196.164.190

[edit] آذربایجانلیلار

Yeah, sometimes people fight over the dumbest things, and then it turns out that the compromise is just taking it out altogether. I see you've been saying "ciao" as well, ciao! —Khoikhoi 05:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, have you noticed that weird vandal over at Afghanistan—they kept changing it to the Taliban flag and the emir as Mohammed Omar! LOL! —Khoikhoi 05:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I love that page too. No, it just means "Azerbaijanis". Adios! —Khoikhoi 07:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Azeri

Good luck with your "freelance" work. I hope you will be cooperating with our wikiproject in future as well and thanks for your great contributions. Regards, Grandmaster 08:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the article overall is great, but the pictures are really scarce. We need to do something about it. Btw, what do you think about these people: Hussein Khan Nakhichevanski, Samedbey Mehmandarov, Ali-Agha Shikhlinski, Azi Aslanov. They kind of look cool in the uniform and with big moustaches. Maybe we can include a picture of one of those people in the article? Grandmaster 11:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

The citations are in the archieves I was reading the discourse of the talks and saw a lot. I am to lazy to get them, but I got to tell you there is a lot of aggresive POV, especially from the Republkic of Azarbaijani side. Meh; I could be wrong, but I am not going to kill myself over falicies. Anyways your article was really good and neutral. I just think to honour the matter academically the perspective factor should be noted. I really did not like the other editor's comment it seemed to be pure rhetoric. Do not let me be a wet blanket. I was really impressed by your work. How can we protect these articles? 69.196.164.190

[edit] Vote

I just wanted to say thanks for your support vote on the Cape Town article, and when I went to go find out more about you, I saw that you are studying in New York. May I ask where? I'm at NYU m'self. Páll (Die pienk olifant) 16:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If you go to the New School, do you know a Kerstin? Páll (Die pienk olifant) 05:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

A Barnstar for Tombseye
You are recieving this barnstar for your glorious work on Pashtuns, nevertheless there were lot of disputes to be rectified. I didnt know how to send barnstar so I have just had copy and paste it, hopefully you will accept it.. Haider 02:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I think Polo will make Pashtuns much gorgeous if added in sports section, what's your idea? Haider 21:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good job

Early congrats on the Azeris article, if you are not bored of ethnic topics, maybe Persians in future? I am looking forward to some hard-core wiki-ing then! --K a s h Talk | email 23:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah all sounds good..hey I just noticed there is no mention of the connection the name Azer (meaning fire) and Zoroastrianism symbolism and beliefs? --K a s h Talk | email 10:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

... for your contribution on the Azerbaijani people page. Once you are finished with that, maybe we should focus on the Tajiks and Kizilbash articles. Tājik 00:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I think there's something else already planned... :D —Khoikhoi 04:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stuff

I've listed it on Wikipedia:Requested copyright examinations, hopefully we'll get an answer soon. To get in on the main page, you have to list it somewhere, I believe Wikipedia:Today's featured article. Heh, I hardly follow soccer at all, it's getting a lot more popular though. :) Adios. —Khoikhoi 04:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new comments

Please see the azerbaijani people discussion. I think the is a conflict in wording and I have listed some new sources so that you can put in a wording that acceptable to everyone. --Ali doostzadeh 09:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay I think I made it easy for you, see the comment from Encyclopedia Britannica..in that page--Ali doostzadeh 09:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Britannica[3]:Fath 'Ali Shah (reigned 1797–1834), in need of revenue after decades of devastating warfare, relied on British subsidies to cover his government's expenditures. Following a series of wars, he lost the Caucasus to Russia by the treaties of Golestan in 1813 and Turkmanchay (Torkman Chay) in 1828, the latter of which granted Russian commercial and consular agents access to Iran.. The above statement is sufficient for the article. --Ali doostzadeh 09:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Iranian peoples

No problems Tombseye. Hope there won't be or at least, people go through talks to understand their differences if not able to resolve their differences rather than edit wars.

Thanks for all the efforts you have put into the article. I might not agree with every point in there. But it is a great article with lots of usefull contents and deserves to be an F.A. I wish I had written it. :) Persian Magi 01:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you for your consideration

Thank you for your consideration; keep up the good work. I really appreciate your editing and work. It is of great value, I hope you get the great that you deserve. 69.196.164.190

[edit] Anti-Persianism among Pashtuns

Hello Tombseye, I was speaking with some Iranian wikipedian pals of mine and one of them spoke about recent anti-persianism among Pashtuns in the recent era. He also said that Pashtun Taliban had massacred Persian speakers in Kabul and Balkh. Can you verify this? I was under the impression that while Pashtuns appreciate Persian cultural influences (Durrani's), they have always been fiercley proud of their own language and customs as opposed to any others. This was magnified, in my mind, by Khattak's rebellions against Aurangzeb. Afghan Historian 01:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greene

By the way, if you like reading good lit, I reccomend Graham Greene's The Heart of the Matter, it's a very tragic yet very thought provoking work. It makes one certainly think about personal morality. Also, if you are into world literature, I reccomend Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart and Anthills of the Savannah. Afghan Historian 01:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks for your view on the matter. I never thought Pashtuns as racist, I just view them as very proud of their culture yet very hospitable, friendly and freedom loving, something about their character that never seems to get covered in the media (intentionally?). Yeah, Greene is good stuff and, although you may get tired of hearing this from many people, but you must be commended for your knowledge on the subject of Pashtuns, Pakistan, and the various Iranian peoples, as well as on the culture of these areas as a whole. One would get the impression that you were actually Pakistani or Iranian, such is your knowledge depth. Well I must go, so farewell and Tamam Shud. If you have been bothered or offended by my long monotonous posts on your page, I'm sorry. Afghan Historian 04:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Thx 4 yr message. Love to know who this copy-editor is! Tony 07:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Tombseye. I'll add him/her to my secret list of copy-editors. Image:Smile.png Tony 10:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Safavids

Hi Tombseye.

You may wish to use this source for Safavids, it is a good one and will answer many questions. Encyclopedia Iranica: Encyclopaedia Iranica: azerbaijan :: azeri turkish viii., Azeri Turkish, Doerfer, G. page 246

The oldest poet of Azeri literature known so far (and indubitably of Azeri, not East Anatolian or Khorasani, origin) is Emad-al-din Nasimi (about 1369 – 1404, q.v.). Other important Azeri poets were Shah Esma’il Safawi “Khata’i" (1487 – 1524) and Fozuli (about 1494 – 1556,q.v.), an outstanding Azeri poet. During 17th – 20th centuries a rich Azeri literature continued to flourish, but classical Persian exercised great influence on the language and literary expression. On the other hand, many Azeri words (about 1.200) entered Persian (still more in Kurdish), since Iran was governed mostly by Azeri-speaking rulers and soldiers since 16th century (Doerfer, 1963-75); these loanwords refer mainly to administration, titles and conduct of war.

As you know, Safavid dynasty started ruling Iran since 16th century. Grandmaster 05:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images for Azerbaijani people

Look no further, my friend, the images are here! —Khoikhoi 17:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you should replace all of them, just perhaps some of them. Yeah, if I don't hear anything from them in two weeks I'll just go ahead and add the image. After all, I don't like copyright paranoia. ;) —Khoikhoi 05:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, good idea, perhaps the jazz singer as well as her picture doesn't really fit into that section. —Khoikhoi 05:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Same goes for Haji Zeynalabdin Taghiyev. —Khoikhoi 05:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know about the mosque, try asking Grandmaster as he lives in Baku. As for the refugees, they're from Nagorno-Karabakh, and I know they're Azeris because my friend Luis took them. —Khoikhoi 05:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Heh, which refugee picture? There are 3 of them. —Khoikhoi 05:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
He sent me even more depressing (but excellent) images of Chechnya and Abkhazia! —Khoikhoi 05:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, yeah lol you went to grad school there, didn't you? I've always wanted to see Oxford and Caimbridge. —Khoikhoi 05:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Hahaha, have you ever been to Azerbaijan or Iran? I'd like to go to that area some day. —Khoikhoi 05:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Sounds cool! Make sure to go to Moldova and Transnistria. I'm curious there if most Moldovans identify as ethnic Romanians or see themselves as a distinct ethnic group. Also ask if they call their language Moldovan or Romanian. Plus, there's an interesting community there called the Gagauz, who are a Turkic people. In Ukraine we have the Crimean Tatars. —Khoikhoi 06:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indo-Aryans

Hello Tombseye. I've a question/problem to pose to you. Almost every Indian I meet on wikipedia tells me that Aryans never came from outside India and came from within. I tell them all I know on the subject, even that the genetic proof they have is maternal and not patrilineal. I tell them that both Dravidians and Aryans were Caucasoids and came without at different times but they use this against

[edit] Richard III (1955 film)

Thanks for your comments on Richard III (1955 film)s FAC. I've added some citations, just like you said, but as for changing the heading styles and things, well, it's based on Casablanca (film). You might just want to take a look at that. If your opinion still stands, well, I might just alter it. I'll do anything for another support! ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 23:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aryans

I didnt finish as I was called, but what you gave is really good and what I may use against my opponents. Thanks! Afghan Historian 23:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Is that so? I guess Wikipedia gets all the extremists. Yeah, it is coming up! I actually am going to be seeing the Bedouins and the Druze, so that will be fun. —Khoikhoi 01:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

World Cup? What's that?

I'm pretty busy at the moment. I'll try to look some time.

Tony 09:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] copy-editors

Try user_talk:birdhurst. He/she is new, but I've seen some good work already. Don't mention me, but just make that very point. Cheers. Tony 12:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aryan/editing favor

Could you do me a favor please? Your response on my talk page was responded to by the person I was debating with, Captain Ron. Look at it, and then go to his page and discussion, and look at what I wrote, the last comment paragraph in the entire discussion. Tell me if you think it needs a little work or if it's good enough as a response. I will be most appreciative if you do this for me. Thank you. Afghan Historian 03:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aziza

I provided a full link to the source of her picture at her website. I think that should be enough. Grandmaster 12:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

Hi, like I said other than that I have no problems with the article and my oppose can be sratched. When you have no Armenians opposing, that means you really did a fine job. The difference between Tigran the Great's conquest and the Armenian Kingdom itself. Tigran conquered parts of C. Albania and made the rest of the Kingdom a vassal state. Albanian troops were part of his army from then on. But the actual border of the Kingdom before and after Tigran was the river Kura. East of the Kura was Armenia, West of the Kura was C.Albania. That border was intact from 198 BC until 428 AD. Maybe this can be of help: [4] I can't seem to find an online copy of Hewsen's book. Also, of course I would welcome your rewrite on Armenian people. Still it looks better than History of Armenia, which is really in a sad state.--Eupator 18:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for interfering, but the western frontiers of Albania were unstable, so the statement that Kura was the border between Armenia and Albania is inaccurate. See the article from Iranica written by professor Chaumont:
Albania (Iranian Aran, Ar. Aluank), an ancient country in the Caucasus. It was bounded on the north by Ceraunian mountains, an extension of the Caucasus, on the east by the Caspian sea, and on the south by the lower course of the Araxes (Aras); on the west its borders were unstable: The frontier along the Kura (Kor), affirmed by Strabo (Geography 11.14.5) was repeatedly overrun, to the advantage sometimes of Albanians, sometimes of Armenians. [5] Grandmaster 18:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
There's no such thing as interfering in Wikipedia, your comments are welcome. I have no problem with what that source is saying. Before Christianity and the 5th century the C.Albanians were regarded as semi-barbarians (mostly on accounts of their strange language) by the Armenians so it's only natural that there were constant border clashes. For example the Northern borders of the Roman Empire were almost always under some sort of attack and often overran.--Eupator 19:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys. Not to worry, as the article simply states that at times Armenians exerted control over parts of Azerbaijan during the periods given and wikilinks to Armenian kingdom. We don't have room to put in more details simply b/c the article is way too long and i just shortened it after a lot of editing of the sources etc. At any rate, I think we've got a good neutral situation going so hopefully everyone's happy. Tombseye 19:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Tom. I just noticed this and took at look at the relevant section. One obvious error-95-66 BCE is included in 190 BCE-165 CE, so 95-66 BCE doesn't need to be mentioned. Second, as the Wikipedia pages on Artsakh and Nagorno Karabakh History point out, the Armenian rule extended till 428 AD (the fall of Armenian kingdom). So 165 might be misleading.

As I said, the article looks much improved (compared to a few months ago). --TigranTheGreat 00:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Well during 95-66 BC actual territories West of the Kura were annexed and C. Albania was a vassal, all other times the border was Kura until 428.--Eupator 01:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Tom. Thanks for the response. I think what I meant is that the 95-66 should be taken out, with 190bc-428ac remaining instead (since 95-66 is included). As Eupator said, eastern Azerbaijan (east of Kura) was under Tigran's position in 95-66. But modern Western Azerbaijan (Karabakh, Nakhichevan etc), were part of Armenia before 95. For example, Strabo, in 11.14, places Karabakh (Orkhistene) and other areas around it (Sakasene) solidly in Armenia. He also lists the areas conquered by Armenian kings in 190-66. These two areas are not included by him in the lands conquered.[6]. So, there is no evidence that it was Tigran in 95 conquering Western Azerbaijan. In sum, the 95 should be changed to 190 bc.

Please note that this doesn't mean I am reintroducing my oppose. Actually, per Khoikhoi's request, I will put my support. Thanks!--TigranTheGreat 18:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding IA

Thanks for the response on my page. That was pretty good. What you said was 100% on the spot. Thanks for bringing up the obvious, the oldest Indo-European document was in the Levant, not in the subcontinent, althought Rig Veda is still one of the oldest. I dont like to think all Indians believe that tripe about no AMT. I know most of my Indian pals who are into history believe in the migration, though they dont think it really matters, as they both have mixed so much that ethnic distinctions are practically non-existant, except of course, in language and certain history. I've often wondered, though, if Proto-Australoid genes ( the main component of South Asian matrilineal lineages) exist west of the subcontinent (ie: Iran, Afghanistan, Middle East, etc.) Do you know if there are traces of the Australoids in the Iranian plateau or other parts of the ME? Afghan Historian 21:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Azerbaijani copy-editing

Thanks for the nice words - how can I refuse such an invitation? I'll have a look at it in the next few days. Birdhurst 05:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey!

The article is starting to look really good! I know you're busy, but when you have the time, could you check out the discussion here again? —Khoikhoi 20:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Lol, I've actually been trying to cut back from all of this. Maybe you might try peer review next time before nominating it for FA... —Khoikhoi 20:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I think you should nominate this one for being on the main page... —Khoikhoi 20:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree! —Khoikhoi 20:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

...and again. —Khoikhoi 20:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of Azari Refugess

Although I am concerned and upset about both Azari and Armenia refugees and beleive they are essentially the same people, on an academic basis I question this picture being posted on this article. It seems to be POV, and once again the article seems to be getting a non-neutral, biased Republic of Azarbaijan tilt to it again. I object to the posting of this picture and I also ask all editors to consider the changes being made recently. 69.196.164.190

Why has the picture of Googoosh been taken off? 69.196.164.190

[edit] Barnstar

For your outstanding contribution to Azerbaijan related articles. Keep up the good work! Grandmaster 10:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
For your outstanding contribution to Azerbaijan related articles. Keep up the good work! Grandmaster 10:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I did not want to mess up your user page, so feel free to move it around as you deem necessary. Regards, Grandmaster 10:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Central Asia

WikiProject Central Asia has finally been created! Aelfthrytha 21:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Babak Khorramdin

Hello. You might be interested in this BBC article ;) Tājik 00:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. However, I believe that you make a mistake by comparing the Tajik-Parsi relationship to that of Croats and Serbs (two different peoples with different languages and different origins).
"Tajiks" are not only the same people as the Persians of Iran, but also their name ("Tajik") has the same meaning as "Parsi".
Sources that mention Tajiks as a seperate people who are "Iranian" and speak an "Iranian language related to Persian" are weak and only prove that they are not reliable - like saying that "Australians speak a Germanic language related to English".
Tajik culture is the same as Persian culture, and the differences are not bigger than the differences within the German nation (people in Schleswig-Holstein have a totally different culture than those in Saxony or in Bavaria). Yet, noone would disagree that all 3 are in fact "Germans".
Only because "Tajiks" (= Turkish word meaning "Persian") live outside of Iran (where everybody calls himself "Persian", although "Tajiks" are more "Persian" than 49% of Iran!), it does not mean that they are not Persians - keeping in mind that modern Persian identity is infact "Tajiks indetity" and "Central-Asian identity" and NOT that of the people in the Islamic republic. By seperating "Persian" and "Tajik", then all Medieval Persian culture should be transferred to the "Tajik" page, INCLUDING Ferdousi (who was in fact "Tajik", celebrating the "Tajik" Samanid kings and their "Dari" language).
Authoritative sources, such as the Encyclopaedia of Islam and Encyclopaedia Iranica do not distinguish between "Tajik" and "Persian", and in their articles "Tadjik" only explain the meaning of the word, NOT the people - the people are mentioned in the article "Persian culture" and "Persian history".
Here is an extract from the "Tajik" article (Encyclopaedia of Islam) - note the first sentence: [7]
Tājik 19:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I know and understand what you are trying to say, but you are still making mistakes.
  • Sources that classify Tajiks as being "different from Persians" are not realiable and obviosly have mistakes. In this case (and also in other cases), Iranica and EoI are authoritative!
  • It does not matter wether "Tajiks" consider themselvs Persians or not. After all, only a very small portion of Tajiks actually identify themselvs as "Tajiks". In Afghanistan, for example, the term is still quite unknown and usually, people say "Fārsiwān" or "Fārsi-zobān". Now, should we also craete a seperate article for the "Fārsi-zobānān" because they do not identify themselvs as "Tajiks"?!
  • Of course there are differences between Iranian Persians and Tajik ... but you also miss the point that there are great differences between Persians within Iran and between Tajiks within Afghanistan or in comparison with Tajikistan. What has a Herati-Tajik in common with someone from Dushanbe?! What has a Tajik from Samarqand in common with a Tajik from Ghaznai?! Their dialects are different, their ways of life are different, and even their faith might be different. Yet, most souirces do not differenciate between "Bukharis", "Samarqandis", "Heratis" and "Kabulis" ... yet, the same sources persist that there are "Persians" and "Tajiks" - two "different peoples" - although they totally miss the point that there is almost no difference between the people of Herat and thos in Mashhad, or between the people of Balkh or Samarqand.
  • Incorporating "Tajiks" into "Persian" would be wrong - the Tajiks deserve an own article. Yet, both article should make clear that there is - actually - no difference between the Persian-speakers of Iran and thos in Afghanistan and Central-Asia. Except for minor differences, the cultures are the same. Their history is the same. And even their national heroes - starting with the heroes of the Shahnama - are the same.
  • "Tatas" and "Tajiks" are - like the people in Iran - a subdevision of the larger "Persian nation". It just happens that the term "Tajik" was forced on the people in Central-Asia, while the Persian-speakers of Iran kept "their" name (it's important to note that "Persians" do not have a name, but usually identify themselvs with the city or region they come from).
Everything is fine the way it is. We should only expand these article, not create a new theory or fall back to unrealiable sources.
Tājik 20:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no problem with the current articles. I know that many Tajiks (considering the fact that some 95% of Afghanistan is totally illiterate) do not want to be called "Persians" (which in their view is a synonym for "Shia"; so it's a religious problem and not an ethnic one), but it still does not change the fact. It is totally irrelevant. It should be mentioned in the article that because of certain historical reasons, many so-called "Tajiks" (the term "Tajik" is not really a self-designation!) do not consider themselvs "Persians" (we'll leave out the fact that not every so-called "Persian" in Iran is actually a "Persian"). Yet, the ACADEMIC VIEW remains that Tajiks are "Persians" - be it "Persians in Central-Asia", "Persians of Tibet", or "Persians of Idia" ... it does not matter ... "Tajik = Persian".
The information in the Persian people article is NOT wrong. We added it into the article after 3 weeks of debate! And at the end, we agreed to add the information that "Tajiks" are a related subgroup, and that they are considered the "Persians of the East" - THIS is the ACADEMIC view.
For your information: according to the Encyclopaedia of Islam and Encyclopaedia Iranica, there is no people called "Persians". "Persian" is a name given to different peoples of different ethnic backgrounds who simply seemed to have the same life-style (city dwellers, merchants, artists, etc). Most of the so-called "Persian scientists and thinkers" were actually NON-PERSIANS, like Biruni, ibn Sina, Khwarizmi, and so on. So, "Persian" is a general term applied to a certain civilization and to everyone who belongs to that civilization - and that civilization is usually defined by it's language: the Persian language.
"Tajiks" are deffinitly Persian in language, Persian in culture, and - according to Richard Frye - even Persians in heritage, maybe even more than today's so-called "Iranian Persians" who might actually be Persian-speaking Turks and Arabs, and not descendants of the historical Persians who were defeated by the Arabs and were forced to leave their homeland (and settled in the Eastern lands of Persia where they merged with peoples such as Bactrians or Sogdians).
Both articles, Persian people AND Tajiks, are fine and only need some improvement.
Tājik 21:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I know what you are trying to say lol. And I agree that there is some kind of confusion in here. Yet, the "Tajiks" are not counted twice. There is only one sentense in the Persian people article pointing out the fact that there are related SUB-GROUPS of the Persian people OUTSIDE of Iran, and that the LARGEST of these subgroups - thos living EAST of Iran - are known as "Tajiks" and that there is a main article regarding these people. That's it.
Persian culture and Persian literature and Persian music and so on should have their OWN articles and should NOT be mentioned in either Tajik or Persian people articles. That's because both Tajiks and Persians share the same culture, language, history, and so on. The article Persian people and Tajiks should predomenantly concentrate on the application of the terms and maybe on the present political situations. All the rest should be attached to these two articles via Wiki-links. That's exactly the reason why academic sources, such as Iranica, Britannica, or EoI do not have any seperate articles for "Persians". Tājik 21:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I just realized the problem. I've left a small note on the Persian people talk-page. Tājik 21:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wali Khan & stuff!

Hey Tombs just the person I was gonna message, alls well with me (btw have you seen the new UK Doctor Who? I highly recommend it). To your comment thanks for taking the time to message, I have gone back and addressed 2 of the points you mentions the see also bit, i left words that haven't been highlighted in the article (or did you mean not mentioned at all?). I have cut down the side of some of the quotes and sorted out the Rahimullah yousafzai thing. with regard to shifting his quote to the main body, I can do that but I'm not sure what i can add to the opening paragraphs. I tend to struggle with "hooking" readers in the beginning if you know what I mean. Yeah you are probably right about copy-editing I've been looking for people to help but it's a bit of a struggle. I am setting up a Wiki portal for pashtun articles, I am hoping that way I can work on bigger collaborations. Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki-Pashtuns --Zak 22:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

hey tombs! I moved the quote, corrected the see also links and have added a picture I might add another one as well, do check Doc Who it's done quite nicely. Thanks again for all the help. I've got some useful links on learning pashto, if you want i can send them your way? --Zak 17:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey again tombs, I think I've already included that quote in relationships? It was quoted in the New Yorker a few years back about how secular pashtun groups had been marginalised by the Afghan war and Pak gov policy. I'm holding back on some references and links because I figured I'd need them for my articles on Bacha Khan and others.

Here are a few pashto educational links I'd recomend: http://cassandra.sprex.com/teachionary/applets/Pashto_parts_of_the_day_or_week.html http://interlitfoundation.org/ --Zak 21:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey Tombs, yup its looking good now, it probably does need some more improvement but i think structurally and grammatically it can't be faulted as much as it could before I submitted it for the FA status. Anyway lets see what everyone else says! Nobody seems to be replying now? --Zak 20:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey Tombs I am getting butchered in the FAC Wali khan feedback. H-Help!--Zak 11:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
No worries man, I figured you were on holidays somewhere..if you can have a look at the article before school starts I'd appreciate it..it's been a real struggle getting people to work on it..and i thought it had been improved quite a lot from the early days. Anyway I won't be having as much time anymore either..starting a new job tomorrow which will cut down how much wiki time i can spend. Do keep in touch though..have you seen Supes returns? What did you think? Anyway I am outta here..hey if you wanna keep in touch my e mail addy is zaksez@doctors.net.uk

--Zak 13:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Croats

Please help with that article. I have attempted to remove original research and provide sources for the data, but another user completely undoes my work and puts in false references from Cavalli-Sforza, who does not tackle the theory of Iranian origins of Croats. His false citation is further revealed in that he is claiming "Persian" origins for Croats, rather than the proper "Iranian" origins. Cavalli-Sforza would never make such a mistake and I have read much of his work and he does not even come close to handling such a new and potentially dubious theory. Thanks. Genomist 17:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Also it appears he even removed numerous other references [8]! Man, how do you guys tolerate this stuff all the time? I don't think I can handle the stress. Genomist 17:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Cavalli-Sforza is the main resource from which racists use to propagate their agendas. Lord Loxley 19:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you think somebody with the name "Genomist" and editing exclusively as to the racial origins of Balkan peoples is up to, when they talk about Aryans? This undoubtedly is connected to the Ottoman invasion of Europe and the problems of Yugoslavia. The editor is well advised to change his focus and steer clear of nationalistic edits that promote any type of revisionist racialism in regards to the matter, or I will make a RFC. Lord Loxley 19:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I have discovered that this is a systemic bias due to the influx of racialist POV intermixed with purportedly legitimate academia. The waters are muddied with half-truths and propaganda; it is by no means NPOV academia. This tide is too high for me to swim...I suppose I will let you all drown in your own sewage, promoting these connections which have no sound basis in actuality. These theories are only as old as the study of racial categories and the caste system in the 19th century for new imperialism; they have not been important beforehand and are increasingly irrelevant in our current time. In short, these things are obsolete and unfounded--with no historical tradition to support them. Furthermore, these "studies" only continue to isolate Eastern Europeans from acceptance in the European Union--they appear as foreigners, with little in common. When you embrace the separatist theories and ideologies, don't expect Franks like me to welcome you. We have tried to save Europe from Eastern barbarisms with classical antiquity civilisation, but you go on and say that they (Asiatic tribes) are your ethnogenesis. Why should we seek to include those who want to claim a separate ancestry and somehow, fuse the two together? You are either European or Asian; we cannot mince words and create approximates as to who you really are. New theories don't mean squat in the face of historical timelines. Dalmatia and Illyria are part of Europe and always have been; it is not our fault that separatists enjoy the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans so much that they propagandise and war over it, for a collaborationist approach. It only furthers the Turkish issue in Europe, since it actively works against Christendom. Go ahead and walk the wrong way. We don't want to fix your economic problems, if you don't love us anyways. Why desire to be a part of us, except to milk and leech off our prosperity? Commmunist greed is all that is. Don't say we abandoned you to stave off the hordes on your own and that we never tried to help you from the barbarians; you take it upon yourself to sacrifice your own heritage and assimilate into their collective. So, you think it is better to become a Hun, Mongol, Turk (or Iranian) instead of Celt, German, Roman, Greek (or Jew/Arab)? I say that is an inferior sense of priority and backstabbing. Why would you not want to hold Western values (or admit our blood)? Both the Franks and Britons claim Trojans as our ancestors, not Aryans. The difference is the Abrahamic vs Dharmic worlds. We trace our roots to Japheth, not obscure Asian deities. It is revisionist to believe that Indo-Aryans should supplant Minoans, Mycenae and Sea Peoples. Lord Loxley 19:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Sorry about the Ayatollah on the Azari Article

I thought it was okay since the picture is featured on another article; meaning Wikipedia has permission to use it. Was, I wrong or right or in the grey? 69.196.164.190

[edit] Wiki Pashtuns

Hey Tomb, I thought you would have already singed in as Participant on Wiki Pashtuns, but couldn't find you out there? Take great care yara. Haider 21:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Suggestion

I more than agree with what you said, so why don't you set it up? As for the template Chris set that up and I honestly don't know how to make those or edit them, so you might better mention the omission to him. :) Aelfthrytha 22:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Be bold in editing pages

I want to! but someone reverts it back! See the discussion page on the Talk:Azerbaijani people. Cheers, Kiumars 16:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenians

Are you still planning on working on that article? Please let me know as I have recently encountered some helpful sources.--Eupator 16:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Croats

Hi Tombseye. In general I don't like the idea of Iranian origins for modern Croats because of what you describe. It is for certain (if I am not mistaken) that "Croatia" is an Iranian name, but the genetic component is an entirely different matter. My specific problem is that the user in question is removing sources and presenting questionable edits with no proper referencing. The article is not very well written. I have heard many theories about modern Croats, including that they are closely related to Serbs (like Bosniaks being simply Serbian Muslims), though I'm sure this is not popular for political reasons. By the by, what is this Lord Luxley and what is he raving on about? I cannot make sense of his attacks on me and why he is calling me a white supremacist! LOL I'm not even European! Genomist 22:59, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tombseye, I think you should pay attention to the Azari page and discussion

It seems like all hell might brake loose on the Azari talk page or article. Your expertize and services would be appreicated. 69.196.164.190

[edit] Problems with User:Hadi1121

Could you please have a look at People of Afghanistan, Hazara, and Tajiks. The above mentioned user is vandalizing by changing population numbers, nationalities (for example his claim that "Avicenna was a Turk"), etc. Thx Tājik 00:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey

Hey Tombseye, this is Afghan Historian. I'm back briefly to see somethings. I just thought I'd drop by and say hi. I'm doing well, being an RA here at the Michigan debate camps. I'm going to judge some practice rounds, as part of my job. I also make sure the children are in their rooms at the proper time. I must say I'm very lonely here. One of my few potential friends here wont talk to me anymore, due to a misunderstanding. I miss wikipedia greatly. But anyway I'm studying for courses next year and I'm reading some books. One of them happens to be The Discovery of India by Nehru. I was always curious about Nehru's perspective of India and partition. Some of his ideas about his vision for the subcontinent are outdated, as this was before partition but others seem to come true. He seems to make a mistake of calling Pashto an Indo-Aryan language and it seems that he quoted the authors who I used as my sources for calling Afghanistan an Indian area a few months back. James Darmesteler, a French savant by profession, is the primary source for this particular bit of information. Not an Indian. Have you heard of him? Also, what's the Central Asia wiki project like? I got an invitation but I cannot do any work till I get back. I do make a suggestion of adding Pakistan on it. After all, NWFP and Kashmir were and are heavily tied to southern Central Asia, genetically and culturally to certain extents. Also, how have you been doing? I hope well. Tell me what you have been doing this summer. Well I must go, so I'll talk to you later. Sorry for telling you all of my personal crap. I just had to let it out to someone. Adieu. Afghan Historian 04:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfA thanks

Samsara (talk • contribs) 22:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Azerbaijani people

Hi Tombseye. Whenever you have a minute, would you mind to have a look at Azerbaijani people? Some new users make edits that in my opinion damage the quality of the article. Maybe you can address thier concerns? Grandmaster 18:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Tombseye. Since you're the main author of the Azerbaijani people article, your opinion is needed regarding this discussion and critic. Thx Tājik 22:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I support Tajik’s request. Would you mind to have a look at this dispute, as me and Tajik have a difference in opinions with regard to migration of Oguz Turks to Azerbaijan and the time of turkicization of the region. And please see this diff in question. Regards, Grandmaster 19:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The theories

So whats the deal and whats going to happen?Khosrow II 19:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please do something about this User

I believe you are an admin am i correct? Please do something about this user: Rembranth. Just look at his posts in the discussion section of this article Tabriz rug. He keeps ranting about how Azerbaijan will take back iranian azarbaijan and make tabriz the capital and that turks have lived there since 1000 BC and that other such propaganda and nonesense. he wont listen to reason and he has many different accounts on wikipedia which he uses to vandalize several iranian related articles. Even the presence of Iranian Azari wikipedians who object with him does not stop him. anyway, please do something about him, and for the mean while can you protect the Tabriz rug version last edited by me? The other users and I cannot keep having to resort to reverting. Thank you!Khosrow II 20:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Why have you ignored my request? can you refer me to an admin atleast who will take action? thanks.Khosrow II 15:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


Sorry, i thought you were an admin. ok, thanks for your help.Khosrow II 21:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pashtuns Cricketers

Hey Tomb, hope you doing well. Shahid khan afridi is famous Pakistan's Cricketer but there are some great figures should have been mentioned on main article page, one of them is great Imran Khan, he is the only Pakistan's cricketer, who had taken more than 3 hundred test wickets and scored more than 3 thousand runs aswell. It would be great to see his picture in place of Shahid Khan Afridi and I am sure nobody will oppose it. Haider 09:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm back

Hey man, how's it going? :) Did anything interesting happen when I was gone? —Khoikhoi 22:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Israel was awesome. I had already travelled extensively throughout the north (Lake Kinneret, Tiberias, Safed, Haifa, the Golan Heights, Akko) and was in the Negev and Eilat by the time the violence broke out. As for the Israeli chicks, it's pretty amazing how short some of their clothes can be! And then of course you see the exact opposite in places like the Western Wall. I bascially went everywhere except for the Occupied Territories—where I hope to go next time I travel to the Middle East. All in all, it was a great trip.
What exactly are the problems at the Azeris page? Good luck on your essays btw. —Khoikhoi 22:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Ah yes, the Bedouin. The village I went to was very touristy so I didn't really get to see "authentic" Bedouin culture that much. If I ever go back I'm going to make sure to visit some real Bedouin villages, but that won't be for awhile. I didn't get to see Tel Aviv at night either! Thanks for reminding me man, that way I can have a checklist for things I need to do on my next trip. I think the issue with Wiesel is settled. As for Chomsky, I was watching this thing he was saying on TV once where he said that the borders of African countries should be redrawn as many ethnic groups are split up. That had to be the smartest thing I had heard that day. The image of the 3 Azeris was given to me by User:Ldingley—you should probably ask him. Ciao! —Khoikhoi 23:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] request help

Hello, I started this article: Iranian Theory Regarding Azeri's and I was wondering if you could help me finish it, or add on more information. Then once its complete I will link it to here: [9]

ThanksKhosrow II 20:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Kyrgyz

Hi, I am back - but for short while!

Please see that above article is balanced- I hope it is. Let GM know if you need his opinion.

Noticed that Kyrgyz and History of Kyrgyzstan are rather poorly written - I am completely re-workting this. When you have time... sure you can contribute? abdulnr

[edit] Hi Tombseye

Please visit [10] page and add your personal email (if you don't mind) at the bottom for better collaboration, networking and comunication. Thanks :) Omerlives

[edit] Pashtun

Hello Tombseye! Your contributions to the Pasthun article are very much appreciated. I had a concern I would like to inform you about regarding this article. It seems as if the population statistic of Pashtuns in India is being repeatedly deleted. From my knowledge, I know that a large number of Pashtuns live in India. In some cities such as Pathankot and Rampur, Pashtuns are a majority ethnic group. I feel India should be third on the list as it was in the past. There have even been a few comments in the past regarding the lack of mention of the Pasthun in India on the talk page. (see in India and [11]). There used to be a picture of Shah Rukh Khan (an ethnic Pashtun) under Pashtun_people#Performance_art that was removed as well. I thought this picture was great as it gave mention of an Indian Pashtun in the article. I would really appreciate if you could get back to me on this issue. I thought I would inform you since you seem to have much knowledge on the subject and have made such great contributions to the article. Thanks again. Jdas07 04:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pashto is not spoken in India!

Hey Tombseye, I was reading the Pashto language article to see if I could make any decent contributions, and I saw references as to it being spoken in India. This is ridiculous! Pashto was spoken in India prior to Partition, but since then, it has no speakers in the modern country as it is today. There are Pashtun desecendants, but these are Pathans who speak Urdu or local languagese. They are no more Pashtun then Parsis are "Persian" or Sayyids "Arab" or what not. Can you look at this page? It's the page Pashto language. Thanks! Afghan Historian 03:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi Tombseye

My Ottoman map is real Ottoman map. Sorry i little english and i you understand but my map is real. This link: [[12]] Ottomans to be owned countries All Nothern Africa, Turkistan (Turkistan is enter the somebody's Ottomans), Mozambique, Indonesia and Iceland(Northern Europe).

[edit] Pashtun people review

Hi Tombseye. Pashtun people is up for Featured article review here. The review period has just started so there'll be plenty of time to address concerns. As you originally nominated it for FAC, perhaps you can help with the review. Cheers, Marskell 11:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Would sure like to have an update on your progress on the FAR page. Regards, Sandy (Talk) 22:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yerzhan Ashykbayev

Hi, if you have the time I would like your input on whether to delete the article on Yerzhan Ashykbayev, the Foreign Ministry spokesman of the Government of Kazakhstan. Thanks, KazakhPol 18:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ah-ha!

You returned earlier than I expected! :-) Khoikhoi 22:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Lol, I see. If there's anything that you don't approve of in the article (that's unsourced), feel free to remove it, as per this. It sucks that you can't stay forever...when you have the time please check out the Azeris page as well. Khoikhoi 22:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and also this. ;-) Khoikhoi 22:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
...I forgot to tell you that it closed on October 21... Khoikhoi 01:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! Hopefully the Pashtuns page will look good again. Adios, Khoikhoi 22:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pashtun celebrities

I agree with you that we shouldnt have these people of distant Pashtun ancestry listed as Pashtun celebrities. I am thinking of removing references to Shah Rukh Khan and Madhubala. However, I do think we should keep mention of Dilip Kumar. His real name is Muhammad Yusuf Khan and he was born in Peshawar, British India to Pashto-speaking parents and happens to be a prominent Muslim philanthropist and politician these days. He has familial connections to Pakistani Pashtuns (in fact, his brother is an actor in Pakistan), is highly admired by many Pakistani audiences and was one of two Indians to be awarded the Nishan-e-Imtiaz. I think we can mention him as a prominent Pashtun celebrity. With regards to Fardeen Khan, I know his father is a prominent Bollywood actor, Feroz Khan being his name. I do know that Feroz Khan was born in Bangalore to Afghan immigrants (his mother, in fact, lived in Iran for a while) and that Pashto happens to be his mother tongue. I think we can include Feroz Khan, rather than Fardeen as a Pashtun celebrity as well. But just those two. Indian Muslims of Pashtun descent such as Shah Rukh Khan and Madhubala have no place on the page. What do you think? Afghan Historian 21:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree. I dont think we should include the rest. But Kumar and Khan should be included, just as simple examples of Pashtun celbrities from Pashtunistan living in Afghanistan/Pakistan and abroad. Thanks! Also, is the Farsi dialect of Persian spoken as a mother tongue in Pakistan? I know for a fact Dari Persian and Tajik Persian are spoken in large numbers by Afghans living in the NWFP and Balochistan, but the Iranian Farsi? I'm not so sure about this. Afghan Historian 23:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the Siraikis are a transitional group between the Punjabis and the Sindhis, while the Hindokowans are a transitional group between the Punjabis and the Pashtuns. Both are really separate groups. The Mirpuris could be called a transitional group between the Punjabis and the Kashmiris, but I'm not sure. The last time I was on the page, just a few minutes ago, Shah Rukh Khan was deleted. So I think we have that problem solved, for now. I also think that the page should be reformatted but you dont need to worrry wasting your time doing that. I'm sure someone else wil fix it soon. But if you want to, you can. I just dont want to make you a "watchdog" for the page as you said. Anyway, when was the last time you were in Pakistan? Have you ever thought of going back or seeing any other South Asian country? I'm going there again this coming summer for a few weeks before I get back to my internship. Afghan Historian 14:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Munich

Would you be interested in helping out atWikiProject Munich? And you don't have to know anything about Munich. Maybe you could help out on bringing Munich-related articles up to Wikipedia Policies and guidlines standards or maybe another area where you could help improve Munich-related articles. Kingjeff 23:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome back!

Good to have you back, Tombseye. Certain articles, dealing with Iranian, Afghan, and Turkish history are under permanent POV attacks (see Babur, Timurids, Afghanistan, Seljuqs, etc).

Maybe you can help to solve the problems. Thanks.

Tājik 15:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I see. Tājik 23:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

____ ____

[edit] My Map Real Ottoman Map...

Please click adress in Harita

http://www.osmanli700.gen.tr/padisahlar/17index.html StANDby007 16:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey

Are you back permanently?--Eupator 18:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NWFP geography

From what I know, the majority of the old NWFP that actually lies on the Iranian plateau (the end of the Hindu Kush), has been separated and reorganized as the Federally Administerd Tribal Areas (FATA) and Waziristan. The NWFP as it is today, from what I see, seems to be located between the Punjab-Kashmir area (the subcontinent's end) and the FATA and Waziristan (the plateau's end). Therefore, from my understanding, the North-West Frontier Province lies on the intersection between both geographic areas and therefore, the Indian and Eurasian plates, thus the reason for the seismic disasters in the area. I might be wrong though. What's your say? Also, I dont think Kashmir specifically lies on the Indian subcontinent, as it bore the brunt of those seismic quakes, giving me the impression that it too is a border area or at least on edge of Central Asia. Afghan Historian 16:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Farsi in India?

I was on the Persian people wikipedia page and I saw a stastic in the box stating 60,000 Persians in India. Are they referring to Parsis. I dont think any modern day ethnic Iranians speaking Farsi are living there. I know some came to Pakistan during the revolution, as Pakistan was a friend of the Shah. But India? Do you know anything on this matter. See Persian people to see what I'm talking about. Afghan Historian 18:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Edit war in Afghanistan's article

Since a short while Afghanistan's article is being messed up, I thought that you might be helpful to contact.

User:Pashtun is editing the article since a while; at first some of his edits were appropriate. But recently he has started to bring the article for his own preferences and point of views i.e. making everything depending to Pashtuns or Afghans (as an ethnicity and not as nationality).

I created a section in the Discussion page (here) and pointed out his edits, but he's still doing the same thing. Very briefly he has edited the following points:

1. Ghaznavids were from Afghan origin. And wrote that Mahmud Ghaznavi is a local native Afghan, although he was from a Turkish origin.

2. He emphasizes that the Columbia Encyclopedia is more authentic than Encyclopedia Britannica and thus based his claims on that source for Ghaznavids and Ghorids.

3. He is deleting the following sentence for the 4th time: In the Middle Ages, up to the 18th century, the region was known as Khorāsān. Several important centers of Khorāsān are thus located in modern Afghanistan, such as Balkh, Herat, Ghazni and Kabul. Although I created a new section to discuss on this matter. I provided him several authentic sources in English (Here) and he was unable to respond to my questions and could not defend his point. He stopped the discussion, but again he's trying to edit the sentence (i.g. changed Middle Ages to 9th century and deleted the second part) despite the three reliable sources that I have provided in the article as a reference.

4. He deleted 3 times the names of Empires in the history section. I reverted them back, and no doubt he will again delete them.

He edited 13 times the article from 13:29, November 30, 2006 to 15:39, November 30, 2006. Please have a look on the History page. I just let you know that he's messing up the History and Name section, so that the Admins of Wikipedia would be informed of. Thank you Ariana310 16:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:FILMS Newsletter

The November 2006 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Cbrown1023 23:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request

Hey man, could you please check out the conflict that's been going on at Image:Ottoman 1683.png? User:Ltimur is citing the BBC as a source, but his version of the map doesn't really quite match that. What do you think? Khoikhoi 05:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Iranian peoples

Great to see Iranian peoples featured on the main page today.. Congrats! deeptrivia (talk) 05:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iranian peoples/amazons

The cited link does not state any connection between amazons and Sauromatian/Sarmatian warrior women. Read carefully - it states the opposite:

"The Amazons of Greek mythology most likely had no connection to the women of the steppes, says archaeologist Jeannine Davis-Kimball. "I think the idea of the 'Amazon' was created by the Greeks for their own purposes," she says."

Also, the graves are not old enough; the greek myth existed at least 2 centuries earlier. --Echosmoke 15:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Still we should considerably weaken the statement (also on the main page): "and gave birth to the infamous Amazons." Additionally the mentioned space the amazons are supposed to have inhabited does - to my best knowledge - not map well with that of the Samartians or skythians.

And You are welcome to give these books as sources, of course. Deriving amazon from an iranian stem is plausible but nothing near a proof. What about "may have given birth"? --Echosmoke 16:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds much better, yes. Thanks. Who can fix the Main page? --Echosmoke 17:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey Tombseye. You can change the main page by editing Wikipedia:Today's featured article/December 10, 2006. What part do you want me to change? As for Indo-Aryans, I think I'll check that out later. Khoikhoi 20:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, only admins can edit the main page. :-) How's this? (Also check the main page again) As for the infobox, it looks like Tajik-afghan recently added it. Perhaps you could leave a note on his talk page. Ciao! Khoikhoi 22:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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