Talk:Tomatillo

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[edit] Name

"tomatillo" seems to be the more common term than "husk tomato". [1] In fact there are almost 53,000 instances of "tomatillo" compared to only 713 for "husk tomato". I think therefore, "tomatillo" is the "common name" and Wikipedia policy says to use the common name as the title for articles. Nohat 18:11, 2004 Mar 13 (UTC)

There are just lots of TexMex cookery websites. This skews Google results. The term tomatillo is not an ideal term in either language. (Husk tomato describes it better in English; tomatillo is largely restricted to Mexican Spanish and risks being interpreted as "little tomato". For the sake of clarity, the status quo is best. Chameleon

I disagree that the TexMex cookery sites skew the results, that's just the place where the term is most commonly used. I'm inclined to go with what they're labeled as in the grocery store, which is tomatillo (at least in the US, YMMV). - Hephaestos|§ 18:24, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I thought I was pretty smart to gather that "husk tomato" is a name for a tomatillo. Now I'll google "love apple" How is it, though, that given an alernative, Wikipedians are so drawn to the obscure term?... Wetman 18:27, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Whatever. At the end of the day, you'll just put whatever is said in the US. Chameleon

Curiously, my copy of Larousse Gastronomique has no entry under either "tomatillo" or "husk tomato". My professional cooking textbook, however, On Cooking, has a section on tomatillos in the chapter on vegetables:

Tomatillos, also known as Mexican or husk tomatoes, grow on small, weedy bushes. They are bright green, about the size of a small tomato, and are covered with a thin, papery husk...

I agree with Heph that the reason that Tomatillo appears on so many Tex-Mex cookery sites is because that's where they're used. And notice that those Tex-Mex cookery sites, which are in English, use the term "tomatillo", not "husk tomato". Since most people are likely to encounter them in the context of Tex-Mex cookery, we should use the term used in that area of cooking, which is "tomatillo".

As for the implied accusation that we're being US-centric, I think that perhaps you have that impression because you are getting involved in terms that are much more commonly used in the US. Nevertheless, American English is the dialect of English spoken by the largest number of native speakers. Nohat 18:43, 2004 Mar 13 (UTC)

American English may be the most commonly spoken dialect of English, but I think it's a plurality and not a majority -- most English speakers speak another dialect. That is, if we were, for purposes of example, to lump all the non-US dialects together into, say, "Commonwealth English", we Stupid Americans would be outnumbered. :) By the way, my vote is for "tomatillo". I hadn't actually heard of either tomatillos or husk tomatoes...but I imagine the term does crop up most often in the context of Tex-Mex. And of course Tex-Mex is often inconsistent with real Mexican Spanish usage, for instance, in many places in Mexico if you ask for a "burrito" you might get a blank stare (though you may be understood, especially in regions with lots of tourists). But we call it a burrito and so the article goes under "burrito", and even if we were to sometimes call it "wheat taco" (translation of "taco de harina"), the article would still belong under "burrito", because if I wanted a burrito I'd order a burrito. If I wanted a tomatillo, I'd order a tomatillo. See? It may be contrary to what people in other English-speaking regions would call it, but I'd wager (but don't quote me on it) they encounter "husk tomatoes" far less often anyway. --Furrykef 09:58, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

I see what you are saying, but I think that the terms used to refer to this item are not commonly enough used to base the decision on which is the commoner. We are still in the stage where a standard English term for the fruit can be established, and I think husk tomato is the better candidate because it is comprehensible without having heard it before, and because tomatillo is incorrect in Spanish; that is to say, it is dialectal, suggesting a small tomato to most Spanish speakers. I consider it generally good to take Orwell's tip on not using a foreign word when an English one is available.

But anyway. Who cares: they're just tomatoes. —Chameleon 10:22, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

That's just the thing: they're not tomatoes. They're as closely related to tomatoes as potatoes and petunias are. They're all in the family Solanaceae, but in different genera. They're not just green tomatoes with husks; they're a totally different type of (botanical) fruit. Futhermore, it is quite clear that "tomatillo" is the more common English name for the fruit, by a factor of more than 53 to 1. I don't think "husk tomato" really has any chance of becoming the more common name. It is not Wikipedia's place to establish a standard English name for things; we are only here to reflect current common usage, which in this case in inarguably "tomatillo". The argument about whether or not it is correct in Spanish is moot because this is the English Wikipedia, not the Spanish Wikipedia. In fact, in Mexico, they are usually called something other than "tomatillo': tomate verde or tomate de fresadilla, for example. Let them debate on the Spanish Wikipedia what to call it in Spanish. Also, it's not really a foreign word if it's used in English texts. The reality is that the vast majority of references to tomatillos are in the context of Mexican and Mexican-American cuisines. I don't really see the point of trying to push a more English-sounding name onto an ingredient which is only used in Mexican and Mexican-American cuisine. Nohat 22:49, 2004 May 19 (UTC)

I knew someone was going to say they weren't tomatoes. OK, tomato-like fruits. (Now someone will say they are vegetables.)

They're vegetables. — Pekinensis 22:23, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, they're botanical fruits, because they contain seeds. They are culinary vegetables. Same situation with tomatoes. Nohat 22:56, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, and this brings me to my issue: We have a category called Category:Vegetable-like fruits, which I happen to think is a poor name, in part because it seems to imply a contradiction between the words "fruit" and "vegetable", and which I would like to gather support to have moved to Category:Fruit vegetables, in parallel with Category:Root vegetables and Category:Leaf vegetables. What do you think?

On a second topic, it seems that we are using different indentation protocols. I changed all the indentations to fit my understanding of Wikipedia:Talk page#Standards and conventions of writing and layout, so that your comments are preceded by zero colons and mine by five. I am not particularly a stickler for policy, but I would like to know if I'm misunderstanding it, or if there are other protocols. — Pekinensis 23:21, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hrm, I think "fruit vegetable" is confusing, but I can't honestly say that "culinary vegetables that are botanical fruits" is really that much superior. Maybe there is a better solution. Nohat 23:55, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The standard is replies are one more colon of indentation than the message they are replying to. After reading the page you pointed to, I can't say that I've seen many conversations that actually work like that. The standard is to keep indenting until it's too much, then move back to the left and start over. You can tell who's leaving a message based on the sig, so the only information that the colons need to provide is what text is in response to what. Nohat 23:55, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There are a couple discussions in Wikipedia talk:Talk page on indenting, suggesting moving to a style consistent with indented forums everywhere. I'm for that. --Darksasami 20:25, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just for the record: speaking as a Mexican and for all the Spanish-speaking generations of my family, it's "tomatillo". --Darksasami 20:25, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Toxic????

"Even though Tomatillos are sometimes called "green tomatoes", they should never be confused with green, unripe tomatoes, because these could be poisonous because of their content of solanine."

Which is poisonous? The tomatillo or green, unripe tomatoes? Grammatically, the sentence implies that it is green tomatoes. However, since the next few sentences talk about the tomatillo plant having mostly toxic and inedible parts, this should be clarified. Also, checking this on the tomatoe article does not confirm this. There is mention of toxicity, but only as a MYTH or URBAN LEGEND. There is nothing stating that tomatoes, in their green and unripe form, are toxic. There is, however, talk of an old belief that tomatoes were poisonous. Hmmm. Coincidently, fried-green tomatoes is a well-known dish and the article on that item also has no mention of toxicity or anything. This should be cleared up. Thelastemperor 04:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)