Talk:Tom Swifties

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This page should be combined with the "Tom Swifty" page. The result should be checked against the "Tom Swift" page for accuracy.--Lavintzin 02:35, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and did the merge. Some of my decisions may well be controversial: I left out some examples that seemed contrived and far-fetched to me from the old Tom Swifty page. A lot of the rest seemed redundant or unnecessary, so in the end, much of that page is gone. What's left seems fairly coherent to me. Write and gripe if you don't like it.

--Lavintzin 19:44, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Offensive? 2 Submit here first? 3 Heaving it aloft 4 Otomi 5 condescension 6 Two new ones 7 Anothern 8 Yet Anothern 9 New one

[edit] Offensive?

A user recently deleted these three entries:

• "Here I come!" he ejaculated
• "I always go last in the gang bang," Tom said forthcomingly.
• "What do y'all do 'round here for sex?" Tom asked sheepishly.

I'm quite sure the user felt that they were offensive given their sexual nature. What is Wikipedia's official policy on this? Are these allowed to stay? I think they are very good examples of Tom Swifties - however, I am admittedly biased as I invented 2 of the 3 (forthcomingly and sheepishly).

We're "not censored for minors", so you can probably add them back. 68.39.174.238 21:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The first is really only dirty if you have your mind in the gutter in the first place, although it woldent make much sense as a Tom Swiftie if it wasnt in the gutter in the first place. Eds01 02:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Submit here first?

It seems to me it might be worthwhile listing proposed additional examples here on the talk page and get some votes or reactions before posting. I realize this may be seen as "un-Wiki" or something. But I find a bunch of the recent additions so-so at best, and yet hesitate to just delete them. There are hundreds more out there, and if we just list every one someone has thought of the article will be unwieldy. I'd rather we selected those we thought extra good (and discuss our criteria, including keeping things clean if that's a criterion.) Opinions/reactions?

Criteria I'd suggest:

1. Funny: makes me laugh. (Surprising, clever, however you measure that sort of thing. Double or triple puns are better...)

2. Illustrates a different type from others so far

--Lavintzin 23:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I heard one the other day I thought pretty good: how would the rest of you rate it? Does it deserve a spot on the page?

"I really think it makes it spin faster," said Tom, blowing his top.

I like that one. It is a double-pun. So it is doubly fun. Any thoughts on my two about under the section "Offensive"? Levine2112 00:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I tend to prefer to avoid seamy jokes unless they're funny enough to warrant the offensiveness they bring. The "forthcoming" one is OK, but not great, for me. The other one I may not even be getting. Is the idea that the guys are humping sheep because otherwise sex is hard to come by? Or am I just missing something? (I'm not up on all the vocabulary of sex talk, I'm afraid.)

--Lavintzin 03:12, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I gave him a farmer's accent...to kind of drive the point home. You know those farmers and their sheep. ;-) Oh well. That's my humor for you. The "remorsefully" one is mine as well. Levine2112 03:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

"Remorsefully" I quite liked.--Lavintzin 04:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I just added a new one (dismissively), and I was thinking of adding two others to the end of the list:

• "This is a Tom Swiftie," Tom said, reflexively.
• "This is the last Tom Swiftie," Tom said with finality.

I just wanted to gauge people's reaction. If anyone thinks that these, or some variation thereof, would be a worthwhile addition to the page, either say so, or go ahead and add them. Comments? --DavidConrad 10:06, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heaving it aloft

I'd like to speak up for the recently moved (demoted?) Swiftie:

"I didn't know I got airsick," said Tom, heaving it aloft.

DavidConrad thinks it is "lame"; I rank it near the top. Let me try to explain why.

It is an obvious pun, but pretty subtle in the way it works. All three words, "heaving", "it", and "aloft" are used in two senses. For both "heaving" and "aloft" (and arguably for "it" as well) these are related senses of a single word rather than two accidentally homophonous words. Getting related senses to pun takes more skill and is (to my mind) admirable in a quite different way than trading off a totally accidental similarity.

What I really like about this Swiftie is the way it puns on syntactic constructions. "Heave" can be transitive (involving a kind of pushing throw or pull of some heavy object) or intransitive (vomiting). "Verb it" is most naturally transitive, but there is a somewhat archaic or obsolescent construction "verb(ing) it (adverbially)" where the verb is usually intransitive, and "it" doesn't refer to a definite direct object but to the situation in general (or something of the sort). Examples would be "hoofing it along the trail", "running it close", "cutting it close", "tripping it lightly", and many others. The pun shifts the construction type to this one. And there are two kinds of verb-locative.adverb constructions, one where the locative is the final position of the direct object (where "it" winds up, possibly in this case in the overhead bin of the airplane), and one in which the locative describes where the whole action takes place (in this case, up in the air). The pun also forces a shift in this construction.

I find the whole delicate structure beautiful, as well as funny. I don't mind this being listed last, but I like it a whole lot better than many of the others.

btw, is posting your own Swifties "original research"? I haven't (I don't think? There's one I can't remember where I got it) put up any of my own. But it hasn't been particularly for that reason: I just don't think they're all that good. (I like some better than some that are on the page right now, though, fwiw.)

--Lavintzin 14:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who moved "heaving it aloft", and yes, my intention was to demote it. I must admit, you make a very strong case for it. My problem with it is that, unlike some of the others (Tom said weakly, hoarsely, sheepishly) "heaving it aloft" is a very unnatural expression. It isn't something you would ever actually hear or say, and as such it seems like a real stretch and sounds too contrived. For that reason, it just doesn't strike me as funny. My reaction to some of the others is anywhere from "Ha!" to "Ugh!" to "Groan!" My reaction to "heaving it aloft" is "Uh huh. Clever."

Like a good many others, it would work much better in the right context. You'd have to have Tom boarding a plane with some kind of carrion, and then, once they were in the air, trying to shove it up into the overhead compartment or something.

--Lavintzin 04:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

For that reason, I really don't think it should stand first in the list. Start out with some of the more, for a lack of a better word, traditional ones. But I like the points you make here. How about if we put it somewhere, say, in the first third of the list? Not first, but not last, either, he said moderately.

Whatever. Last was OK with me, just not out. Lavintzin 04:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding my adding of "gayly" and moving "heaving it aloft", it really never occurred to me to check on the discussion page first. I just didn't think that Tom Swifties would be an article that was the product of a lot of discussion, but I am always happy to work with my fellow Wikipedians, he said gladly. --DavidConrad 09:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Otomi

I just moved "heaving it aloft" up to the 4th spot, just ahead of "Otomi" which I think is even more contrived and unnatural. (I'm pretty sure you'd have to mispronounce "Otomi" to make the pun work aloud, and I doubt many people would get it even then since they would have to have heard of Otomi (highly unlikely) and still recognize it when mispronounced (more unlikely still). But perhaps you could promulgate a rule that the puns only have to work in writing, not verbally? "No puns aloud.") --DavidConrad 10:06, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

No, you don't have to mispronounce Otomi: it is regularly pronounced (by English speakers) as [ˌotʰəˈmi]. (That's like owe-to-mee, with the strong accent on mee and the vowel of 'to' reduced to a schwa. The Spanish pronunciation is [otomí] and it is spelled with the accent.) And letting a language name bear the punnishment makes a different type of Swiftie than the others so far. I suppose we could use something like "Let's go faster," Tom said in Russian, to give an example of that same type, but I don't think it's as funny.--Lavintzin 04:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it's even more contrived than "aloft", and sounds stilted even when you understand it. I think it would work better with the language name used as an ethnic/nationality identifier before the name: "Go faster," said Russian Tom. In any case, I think Otomi is FAR too obscure a reference for general use; I'm a fairly well-read guy, and I'd never heard of them before. Mdotley 16:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] condescension

Geoduck changed

"Let's go downstairs," said Tom to the robber condescendingly.

to

"Take the prisoner downstairs," said Tom condescendingly.

and saw that as a "grammar tweak". I don't see this as a clear improvement.

(1) "prisoner" for me doesn't evoke the "criminal" meaning of "con(vict)" as well as "robber" does. Perhaps I'm overly aware of people held prisoner, especially in adventure stories (?), who have done nothing wrong nor ever been convicted of a crime. (This is not a strong difference/argument, for me, however.)

(2) In the older version Tom is construed as going downstairs with the robber, activating the other meaning of "con" ("together"). In the newer one, it would be Tom's addressee who would go down with the con, and the "together" meaning doesn't get activated particularly. Perhaps a compromise might be "I'll take the prisoner/robber downstairs," said Tom condescendingly.

I think I'd vote for keeping the older version. Any other opinions?

--Lavintzin 14:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I shouldn't have said "grammar". I just thought it would be a little "punchier" if the wordplay can be included in the actual quote, and not added on afterwards. (Also, the version I used is one that I read in a Swifties collection elsewhere.) Lavintzin clearly worries about this far more than I do (not being snarky; there are articles I care about) so if people want to change it back, go ahead.

Geoduck

[edit] Two new ones

I put one on the page without remembering to follow my own advice and talk about it here:

"2 bdrm furn w c/h," said Tom aptly.

Here's another I've enjoyed:

"What was it like, commanding the Confederate troops?" Tom asked generally.

What do the rest of you think of them?

--Lavintzin 13:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I added - "Look at the those pasties twirl!" said Tom fastidiously.

Yeah, it's dirty. But the dirty ones are funny. :-) Everyone that I've shared this one with (and who enjoy a good Tom Swifty) laugh and laugh.

I like Lavintzin's first one above. Very creative. The second one... wait, I get it... Genrel Lee. Ha! That one is very clever too! Levine2112 22:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

fwiw, neither of these is "mine" in the sense of authorship: somebody else invented them. (I wish I had, but that's another matter.) --Lavintzin 20:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The "crack" one is hilarious! 68.39.174.238 07:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anothern

I added another one pretty close to the top of the list, because (a) I think it's funny and (b) it's a type I don't think we have such a good example of (four, no, make that five puns on parts of a single word!). Quite a tour-de-farce, what?

--Lavintzin 22:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Insinuated = "in sin you ate it"

Genius! Levine2112 00:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yet Anothern

"We'll have you looking like the Venus de Milo!" Tom said disarmingly.

Pretty good, but essentially the same joke as the defeatedly and offhandedly ones. Put it in?

--Lavintzin 23:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Not one of your mightiest additions, but still a decent example. Levine2112 17:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New one

"All my crustaceans have cancer, thanks to you," Tom said crabbily. I know there's already one with 'crabbily', but this is better, I think.211.30.81.69 23:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the "Here I come!" Swifty as in my opinion it felt below the caliber of the others. See Jay 08:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)