Talk:Tom Coburn

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Tom Coburn article.
This page is about an active politician who is running for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some political conflict or controversy.

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Contents

[edit] Bias

What is in the article are not facts. They are twisted misrepresentations. The author of the article should be very ashamed, using Wikipedia for the political purposes of personal destruction. It is such a disappointment to be searching for unbias information on an individual an find such sugar-coated political propaganda.

This entire article was quite obviously written by someone with a negative view of Senator Coburn. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.163.22.23 (talk • contribs) 23:16, July 21, 2005.

Yes, but the facts paint a rather negative picture of Senator Coburn. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.12.117.9 (talk • contribs) 00:17, September 15, 2005.
These are campaign points used against Sen. Coburn. Not needed in wikipedia article. If you want to campaign against him, get out and do it. Don't deligitimize WikiPedia in your campaign. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.97.65.72 (talk • contribs) 01:10, October 26, 2005.
Removal of the entire Controversies section is unwarranted because in most cases the negative light cast on Coburn is cast entirely by his own statements (see the Global warming and Homosexuality subsections). Those subsections don't even mention the views of the respective non-Coburn sides, much less sympathise with them. When political figures make themselves look bad with statements like "[the gay] agenda is the greatest threat to our freedom that we face today", the NPOV policy (which you, 68.97.65.72, should read) does not require us to bail them out by leaving their statements unmentioned. Doing so, in fact, would seem a very un-neutral thing to do.
I do agree with you that the section is in need of improvement. My main suggestion would be to mention Coburn's recent attempt to amend the transportation bill. Another would be to modify the section on the Roberts hearings to focus on the actual issues Coburn discussed with Roberts. And finally, I don't think the sterilization section is notable, because Coburn was not found liable for anything; it might be acceptable to say he improperly charged Medicare, but even that issue seems quite minor to me when compared to his other controversies.
I'm restoring the Controversies section in full, and I recommend that it not be deleted until we at least make an attempt to fix its problems.
— Elembis 09:20, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Wouldn't it make more sense to delete it until we atleast make an attempt to fix its problems. It only makes wikipedia look like it's full of political hacks... not respectful information. I would also like you to note how many controversy sections there are for Democrats versus Republicans. Why can't we put our politics aside, and just quit the SPIN. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.154.114.160 (talk • contribs).
Please use this page to identify the specific problems you have with the article. Also, please do not alter the comments of other editors on this page. Gamaliel 23:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  • "attempted to gain some intellectual footing" rephrasing this. That is an not a neccesary attack. If you want to campaign against Coburn do it outside of wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.97.65.72 (talk • contribs).

"Coburn stopped working on a crossword puzzle and began speaking about partisan politics" Good Grief! Just delete controversy section since to many acedemic political hacks can't control themselves. 3 Bias sections! I suggest putting a dispute warning at the top, or deleting the controversy section until some people can learn self control. BTW don't delete people's comments on the talk page just becausee they make a good point

[edit] Breast Implants

It is my opinion that last paragraph of the breast implant section is biased.

Silicone is pretty much chemically inert, and it is not scientifically proven that silicone implants cause disease such as autoimmune disease (a disease that is often faked). Just about every other country in the world still uses silicone implants.

Simply stating that the study does not prove the women are healthier, implies either that lower rates of breast cancer is not a part of health or that the implants may have offsetting harmful effects. But it has never been proven that silicone implants are harmful in other than a cosmetic manner when they rupture.

I am going to try to word this in a more neutral manner (CHF 09:13, 21 September 2005 (UTC))

I'm going to revert your changes. It appears that your revision has introduced bias by concentrating on one controversial aspect and in effect mitigating Coburn's claim that silicone breast implants make you healthier. Further your claim that "silicone breast implants have never been proven to be harmful" is slippery POV, and takes sides in a contentious debate. Also, the fact that they are used around their world has no bearing on their saftey. Tobacco is smoked around the world as well, and most industry advocates will tell you that it's impossible to prove that tobacco is harmful to your health, and in fact, they often make the same claims as Coburn, encouraging people to smoke to improve their health. Let's stick to just the topic of what was said and avoid the POV. --Viriditas | Talk 00:21, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


Also, I would add that this is NOT a correct statement: The health hazards claimed for breast implants have been largely discredited in recent years. Some people claimed that breast implants caused such illnesses as autoimmune disease, although both the AMA and FDA, as well as health organizations around the world, have found there to be no evidence of this. [1]. However, documented problems with breast implants include asymmetry, visibility, palpability, rupture, deflation, infection, scarring and hardening of the implants or 'capsule'. [2]

The fact is that the health hazard claims have NOT been discredited. IN fact, only one study has followed rupture, and that was the FDA study of 2001. That DID show a correlation between rupture and fibromyalgia. The FDA further acknowledges the limitations of earlier 'studies' that were funded by the manufacturer. Please see the FDA website, on the issues of the PMA, for information on this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jgwlaw (talk • contribs).

[edit] Controversies

I was reading this article and saw mention of the Schindler's List controversy which seemed rather strange. I put a brief mention into the article. After my edit I suddenly saw that there was a prior mention of the movie. I immediately edited my addition out wonder how did I ever miss it. Looking at history answered the question. During the time which I was doing my edit, another user reverted someone's deletion of a section of the article. I guess someone did not want anyone to know the things that Sen. Coburn is most famous for. MichaelSH 23:00, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

It is hard to portray someone who is inherently irrational in a reasonable light. The charge (probably credible) was made during the campaign that he sterlized a woman against her will so that she wouldn't have any more abortions. That should be mentioned. The fact that it is outragous doesn't stop it from being true. This guy IS a nut. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Politicaljunkie6 (talk • contribs).

As you pointed out... it is was a campaign hit. Every shot made at him during the campaign should not be mentioned. Don't forget that this lady already went to court and it was thrown out as a frivolous case. I believe the fact that you label U.S. Sen. Coburn as a "nut" goes to further prove the bias against him. Lets go for a NPOV article with wikipedia standards. --68.229.219.235 06:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)Trav

Clean it up or delete it. People keep making great points in the discussion page but, no a few keep ignoring the talk. They just post their own political views. Please campaign somewhere else, leave wikipedia with some academic integrity. --204.154.114.124 15:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roberts Hearings

Why is there a Roberts Hearings section here? It is almost devoid of any intelligent content - a reference to being mocked over a crossword puzzle and a selective quotation of Coburn's actual statement. This needs to be cleaned up or deleted as unencyclopedic. --Ajdz 23:55, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Let me know what you think of the changes I just made. I removed all the references to late night comedy shows, but I disagree that the section should be deleted because his actions during the hearing did receive much media attention. Gamaliel 01:19, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
That is better. There's no reason to note every late night joke, there wouldn't be room for anything else! I still have a problem with the treatment of the "the opposite of being dead is being alive" quote because it is so out of context. I watched the hearings and that statement was part of a larger philosophical point, but here it is presented to look somewhat idiotic. --Ajdz 06:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

Please rewrite or delete the section noted 'conroversies'. The section is way longer than any other sections ans paints a negative picture of coburn. One of the sites on there was even an anti-coburn site. Please do not be an academic political hack de-legitimizing wikipedia for personal/political gain. Make Wikipedia respected by both Republicans and Democrats by keeping it unbiased! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.229.219.235 (talk • contribs).

If you have specific ideas on how to improve this section, please suggest them on this page. Gamaliel 05:59, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

My idea to improve the page is to Delete the controversies section until someone can make it unbiased and intellectual. "http://www.wackytom.com/ An Anti-Coburn website" This just proves the bias against Coburn. This should not be a source. A campaign site against Sen. Coburn. Please leave deleted until it can be reworked to relevant and intellectual information. Not items like what he did for 12 mins out of an 8 hr confirmation hearing... Wikipedia is loosing legitimacy due to articles like this.

Multiple sections dealing with multiple issues will not be deleted. If you have any specific suggestions on how to improve each section, please offer them. Just saying it is "biased" and not "intellectual" is not helpful.
The fact that an anti-Coburn site is linked to is not "proof" of bias. WP articles present multiple points of view, from both supporters and detractors. If you have any pro-Coburn links to offer, feel free to add them to the article. Gamaliel 06:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
The controversies section will never be unbiased or intellectual because Coburn's opponents will keep coming back to use this page to trash him. I've noted this problem previously and there has been zero interest in either removing riduculous sections (and keeping them removed) or doing the work to make the article more comprehensive. I'm not sure if Wikipedia ever had legitimacy when it comes to articles like this. --Ajdz 16:18, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Coburn has become well-known precisely because of certain comments which are seen (at least in some sectors) as outlandish and extreme. We can hardly overlook the very things that have brought him to the notice of the wider public. --Lee Hunter 18:50, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
There has also been "zero interest" in the part of those who accuse this article of "bias" in identifying precise problems with these sections and suggesting potential solutions besides deleting information they find unfavorable to Coburn. Gamaliel 18:52, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
If so, that's likely because deletion is a reasonable solution to biased and otherwise useless sections, as with the section Roberts Hearings. (And where's the controversy over global warming? The comments aren't even very unique.) At the very least, an introduction to these sections is needed. Are these live controversies? Major controversies? Things only Oklahoma Democrats talk about? I've only heard of a few of them elsewhere, leaving the impression that much of it is just the typical wikipedia crusade. --Ajdz 22:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

"but expressed it poorly" thes is under the Schindler's list controversy. I am removing it because it is a matter of opinion. Please make article NPoV

[edit] The Roberts Hearing

I felt that some of the language regarding Senator Coburn's presence at the Roberts Confirmation Hearings was somewhat slanted and mocking in some cases, particularly the picture and paragraph regarding the crossword puzzle. It seemed as though the author was trying to make the senator appear to be disinterested or even a bad actor (i.e., ". . . seemingly lamenting . . ." on his confusion with legal terms, etc.)

If the author was attempting to make Senator Coburn look like a bad senator by the thing with the crossword puzzle, need I remind him that watching a Senate Judiciay Committee Hearing is about like watching a toilet flush over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, etc. and it is understandable that he would attempt to break the monotonous atmosphere with something such as a crossword puzzle, while at the same time keeping an eye on the proceedings. Roygene 23:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

It's more like paint drying. This article is a good example of wikipedia being used to trash someone that the contributors just don't like. Before I got here the section was also comprised of out of context quotes and pretended that late-night jokes are notable, but then again, notability is irrelevant when there's another agenda at work. --Ajdz 02:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Is this even noteworthy? Seriously... Congressman are usually playing games on their laptops or PDAs... Just because it was on the Daily Show with Jon Stewart does not make it noteworthy. Now if you put "On the daily show with Jon Stewart Sen. Coburn was parodied in this way..." Seriously, most of the controversy section is not noteworthy stuff. Reccomend deletion of that section with a possible exception of Crossword 'Roberts Hearing' if in reference to the daily show. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.229.219.235 (talk • contribs).

This is what happens to biographies on wikipedia. They become hate sites maintained by the person's enemies and "controversy" sections dominate. People are more interested in attacking and spreading rumors than actually coming up with useful information. --Ajdz 18:23, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


"Coburn then began his questioning by revealing his confusion regarding the various legal terms bandied about during the previous day's hearings." Now I think that Coburn is a radical who should never been elected to the Senate, but what I just quoted simply does not belong in Wikipedia: it is not NPOV. Anyone have suggestions for a rewrite? MichaelSH 05:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

"Coburn stopped working on a crossword puzzle and began speaking about partisan politics" COME ON! Just delete controversy section since you acedemic hacks can't control yourselves!

[edit] Unbelievably Biased

This article is so biased, it's shameful. I always expected Wikipedia to be a better source than this, but maybe the public can't make a decent encyclopedia. How about a Washington Post article as a source, instead of someone's Anti-Coburn blog? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.122.126.149 (talk • contribs).

I agree... This is sad. I believe if you want to put a controversy section you should keep it only to the relevant controversies... not ever single campaign point that was used against him. I am deleting controversy section until somebody wants to re-work it and make an attempt at fairness and un-bias writing.

I added " The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page." maybe someone can fix it later so that we can come to a consensus on a NPOV article for Sen. Coburn. --68.229.219.235 04:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)Trav

POV tags are not intended to be left on an article indefinately so "someone can fix it later". Please identify what problems you have with the article now. Gamaliel 15:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why does Coburn redirect here?

--Greasysteve13 13:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't anymore; I've created a disambig page. Gamaliel 18:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Jack Abramoff Controversy

Is this really something that needs to be mentioned? It doesn't seem to be all the controversial, and I think if it belongs anywhere it would be in the Jack Abramoff section --TechTrav 19:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crossword puzzle

It is ridiculous that people point out Coburn supposedly with a crossword puzzle in the article. How do we know he was completing a crossword? It was from the DAILY SHOW for pete's sake! I'm an Oklahoman and I dislike Coburn myself, but there is no excuse for extreme bias in the article (especially BS like this)! Scottmso 15:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The Washington Post reported that he was working on a crossword puzzle. Gamaliel 16:23, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It's still not noteworth if you want to put it in, put it in the Daily Show article. Every hiccup of a Senator does not need to be put into wikipedia. It's clear you don't like him... but don't ruin wikipedia just for your own personal campaigning! 68.229.219.235 04:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Because we have different opinions about the noteworthiness of a particular incident does not mean there is bias or personal opinion involved. Please keep it civil and productive here. Gamaliel 14:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Disputes

Here's the list of unresolved dispute(s) preventing the removal of the {{POV}} from the article. Once a dispute is resolved, it is crossed off the list. --68.97.71.92 21:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents

   * 3 Controversies
         o 3.1 Abortion
         o 3.2 Breast implants
         o 3.3 Homosexuality
         o 3.4 Roberts confirmation hearings
         o 3.5 Schindler's List television broadcast
         o 3.6 Sterilization controversy
   * 5 References
   * 6 External links
When placing a POV tag, please give us more to work with than a list of sections that you perceive to be biased. We can't really address them, since we don't know exactly what your concerns are. Also, it's clear you're not new to Wikipedia, despite these being the first edits from your particular IP. I'm guessing you might be the same user as previously posted POV concerns from other Oklahoma City IP's (User:68.229.219.235, User:68.97.65.72); if so, the proper use of the POV tag has already been explained to you, and one of these users has been blocked for page-blanking vandalism to this page. It would be most helpful if you registered. Also, anonymous editing from multiple IP's can be problematic on controversial articles, as mentioned above. I'm going to remove the POV tag; when you replace it, please list your specific concerns on the talk page so that they can be effectively addressed. MastCell 00:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I am attaching a POV warning for the following reasons. I believe once each reason is resolved we can then remove the POV flag.

Bias Section (I would argue that these are just campaign points that were used against him) Roberts confirmation hearings - (Crossword Puzzle, not significant/noteworthy) Sterilization controversy - (Not noteworthy)

This article has come a long way from what it started out, but still seems to be a bit negative towards him. --68.97.71.92 03:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for specifying; I think we can work with these. As far as "Bias section", I'm not sure which you're referring to. I do agree that the crossword puzzle issue is relatively non-noteworthy in the grand scheme of a House/Senate career. The quote used in the Crossword Puzzle section is also potentially extraneous, since Coburn's strong pro-life views are already summarized under 'Abortion'. As far as the sterilization issue, having read the cited source, it also seems relatively non-noteworthy - after all, the lawsuit was dismissed and Coburn was never found to have violated standard medical practice. What do the more regular contributors to this page think? MastCell 04:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
These were widely reported events and should be documented in the article. We can discuss how exactly to do so and to what length, but we can't simply ignore them. Gamaliel 18:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I also agree that the Crossword part should be taken out, I think it is a sad day when what is reported on the 'Daily Show' is actually considered newsworthy if not historically notable. I believe Bias Section is referring to the above section called Bias which makes many arguments? Either that or they are saying that the Controversies section is bias? Referring to the court case, I don't believe it is right to put every frivolous lawsuit into wikipedia. Otherwise I could go sue the President for attacking me, and then put it on wikipedia... If it's dismissed, it is usually because they are innocent or unable to be proven guilty. 204.154.114.82 18:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The crossword puzzle was reported in mainstream media outlets such as the Washington Post. Gamaliel 18:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the article is very well balanced. It allows people to draw their own conclusions about Dr. Coburn. I read it and ended up thinking "Wow, what a great guy!!" The one thing I would do is remove the portion about the crossword puzzle. It is trivial and I fail to see how it adds or detracts from Coburn's life. In fact, the entire section about Roberts could very well be revised. 70.16.29.50 04:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

I've been away from this page for awhile, but I see the eyesore of a POV tag is still there. If it's still an issue of the crossword puzzle, and we can't reach consensus on whether it's notable enough for mention, perhaps it's worth moving on to request a 3rd opinion from uninvolved editors, or an RfC on the topic. It seems unfortunate to tag the whole article as "POV" when the dispute seems to be about the crossword puzzle thing, which is really relatively minor. MastCell 17:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the tag as there's been no discussion on this for a month. Gamaliel 17:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm

This guy seems cool. Whatever POV problems there were seem largely fixed, IMO. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 23:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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