User talk:Tobyox
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[edit] Welcome
Hi, leave a message for me here, if you wish. Tobyox
[edit] I do wish
Hey, Tobyox (not Toybox? are you sure?), thanks very much for your nice encouraging vote on The Country Wife for Featured article! I was delighted that you liked the première section. That stuff about the actors is fascinating to me, but I was afraid others might think such a section a bit over the top. That type of info doesn't exactly seem to be common in play articles, but I think it does "ground" the more abstract discussion. Wycherley seems to have shaped the play very closely round the small troupe of available actors—like a true cruft-fan, I would have enjoyed writing three times as much about that—for instance, they all seem to be age-appropriate for their parts (I don't know the birth dates, but I do know who's young and who's middle-aged). That's a whole different way of proceeding—a different theatre production culture—than in the 18th century, where you'd get Garrick impersonating Romeo one night and King Lear the next. Anyway, thanks, great vote! (On a different note, is your name Gunnar, by any chance?) Bishonen | Talk 16:19, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Cathars, Troubordors, Women
Thank you for responding! I went back and signed my name... I am still getting used to the wikipedia.
I started out researching women rulerhip in the Middle Ages, more preciesly, how they came to rulership positions, and what was the social context that allowed them to come to power in a traditionally macho society. First I researched Empress Maude's claim, having been designated by her father to succed her. Then Melisende of Jerusalem (whos family is origionally from Boulogne), and now Eleanor of Aquitaine. The commonality I observe between the three is Cathar Christianity.
According to Chas Clifton in "Encyclopedia of Heresies and Heretics", and Tobias Churchton in "the Gnostics", Gnostic-influenced Cathar Christianity tought that the soal of Adam and Eve came from the same sources (the "Seven Heavens") and were thus equal, while the Catholic church advocated the traditional story of Eve formed from Adam's rib and the reason for mans fall. According to these two sources women held positions of power in their respective societies.
Cathar Christianity was also influenced by Bogimul Christian missionaries from the East. Cathars seem to have dominated large parts of Italy, France and Flanders. Through the Troubordours, Cathar Christianity spread from Langudoc throughout the Aquitaine to the ducal court in Poutiou by the late 1000's, and in Boulonge and other areas of France.
According to author Alison Weir in her biography of "Eleanor of Aquitaine" (1999) before the Catholich Church domanited all France, women could inherit land and property by right and rule them autonomously from their husbands estates
This was the situation from the late 1000's until the Albigensian Crusade of the early and mid 13th century.
Ultimatly, my questions are: to what extent did the troubordours contribute to this influence of Cathar Christianity. According to both sources Troubodors took the Cathar belifes with them, often weaving their belifes into the stories. And that the unatainable noble lady was in fact variously Mary Magdaline or that of Mary, Mother of Jesus, both "unattainable" and the most perfect of women. The details reguarding this I have not researched as yet. But that is why I sought advice.
I know I wrote a chapter here.. so will of corse not be offended if you move or remove it, it IS your page!
Let me know your thoughts on this... thax much!!!Drachenfyre
- Hi! Sorry to take such a long time to reply to you. The idea of the troubadours veneration of the domna being linked to Catharism is an old classic, as far as I can tell: it appears to me that e.g. René Nelli, L'Érotique des troubadours, Toulouse: Privat, 1963 espouses that view (but I've only glanced at it), and it is certainly often mentioned. It might spring partly from the once-common perception of the cathars as proto-protestants. While it is of course difficult to ascertain exactly what the beliefs of the cathars were (see e.g. Peter Biller, 'Through a Glass Darkly: Seeing Medieval Heresy', The Medieval World ed. Peter Linehan and Janet L. Nelson, London and New York: Routledge, 2001; Mark Gregory Pegg, 'On Cathars, Albigenses, and Good Men of Languedoc', Journal of Medieval History 27 (2001), 181-95; and indeed the first chapter of John H. Arnold, History: A Very Short Introduction, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000), it appears to me that the troubadours probably weren't cathars, nor significantly influenced by catharism. Linda Paterson emphasises that cathars' focus on the spiritual world, and abhorrence of the physical world, and the consequent dislike of sexuality per se, especially female. This dualism also included the idea of Jesus as 'pure spirit', '[t]he role of the Virgin Mary was therefore very much reduced: for some, she was the symbol of the Church, for others a woman through whom Christ had passed in order to appear in spiritual form on earth' (The World of the Troubadours: Medieval Occitan Society, c. 1100- c. 1300, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993, p. 335). She also notes that while a few women did indeed have the status of perfect, they were few and far between. And, 'Cathars commonly held woman to be an instrument of the Fall of heavenly spririts...some Cathars thought women had to change into men to be admitted to heaven' (p. 251). The desexualised nature of Catharism also jars with the frankly sexualised veneration of the troubadours. Regarding inheritance etc., it's a vexed question, but it does appear that under customary law in Occitania, women could inherit at least something, and some did indeed inherit large lands they ruled by their own authority (see Paterson; Fredric L. Cheyette, Ermengard of Narbonne and the World of the Troubadours, Ithaca and London: Cornell University Press, 2001). However, through the twelfth and thirteenth centuries this changed (a classic article is Cheyette, ‘Suum cuique tribuere’, French Historical Studies 6 (1969/70), 287-99; see also F. R. P. Akehurst, ‘The Legal Background of the Troubadours and Trouvères’, The Cultural Milieu of the Troubadours and Trouvères, ed. Nancy van Deusen, Ottawa: Institute of Medieval Studies, 1994). William Paden also has some interesting comments in his introduction to The Voice of the Trobairitz: Perspectives on the Women Troubadours, Philadelphia: Pennsylvania University Press, 1989.In conclusion, I wouldn't link Catharism to the troubadours in any significant way, especially as regards the domna of their lyric. I hope I answered some of your questions! Tobyox 08:04, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the note. I did not know about the poet. Please go right ahead and make the disambiguation. BTW, Minnesota has a large Scandinavian population, so you are probably right. THanks again, and welcome to Wikipedia. Danny 11:32, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Noticeboard
Hello. We now have a sparkling new Wikipedia:LGBT notice board. Check it out, if you're interested, and feel free to contribute, if you like. Jonathunder 15:36, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
[edit] Trobairitz
I've just created this page, and my intention is that it can hold whatever info we have on each trobairitz. I noticed that you have the beginnings of an article on a trobairitz in your user space, so if you want, feel free to put it in the trobairitz article. I thought it would make more sense to put them all in one place, in order to avoid putting the same info a million times, and I figured people might learn more if they were all shoved together. Happy editing, Makemi 04:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
