Talk:Tlingit

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The poor, pathetic article on the Tlingit with its broken image formatting made me so sad that I felt I had to fix it. But there's so much to say! So I've fixed the broken image which was my original intention, and filled out some outline on stuff that should be written. I'll get to writing the sections as time goes on, but for now I've got to sleep so I can go to the Alaska Federation of Natives conference tomorrow. I hope that the Germans and Japanese can keep up with the changes over time, I'd love to see some of this in other languages. — Jéiyoosh 09:52, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've finished adding most of the references I'm using for this article, besides personal communications and my own cultural knowledge. Hopefully that will lend some credence to the content. It's also probably a good time to consider separating sections out into their own articles, before this article gets too long. I'm considering doing so soon. Currently a paper I'm writing is taking up a good bit of what otherwise would be Wikipedia time, but I expect to finish it in the next week or two and then make some substantial additions to this article and its children. — Jéiyoosh 07:39, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Made a handful of major changes recently, filling in a lot of blank spots. It's slow going because there's a lot of referencing I need to do when I write something to make sure I'm not just saying it off the top of my head. But things are coming along. I'm uncertain now whether it's a good idea to start splitting off separate pages or wait until there's less gaps in the text. I think waiting won't hurt, anyway. There's certainly plenty of room for editing for flow that needs to be done as well, since a lot of my writing is pasting in paragraphs here and there without much regard to how they read against their neighbors. Also, I note that there is almost no reference even tangentially made to the Interior Tlingit who live around Teslin, Atlin, and along the Taku River in Canada. Some mention of them and how their lifestyle differs (e.g., less boats and fishing, more trapping and hunting) is needed, as well as the reasons why they migrated inland in the mid-19th century and how their history differs due to the Alcan Highway and the Canadian government (e.g. the Indian Act). I also need to do some serious study of the ANB and WWII years, which I don't know too much about and don't have much in the way of good references for. Also necessary is a section on modern tribal government organization, which is fairly complex; this may belong in a separate article on ANCSA since the Tlingit tribal orgs have a lot in common with other Alaskan tribes and village governments. — Jéiyoosh 08:17, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

hi. nice work! I added some sources listed in McClellan (1981) on the inland Tlingit. But it doesnt seem like all that much has been published. Keep up the good work. — ishwar  (SPEAK) 23:15, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

Contents 1 inland Tlingit & map 2 Edit War of August 27–30, 2005 3 Sourcing - Angoon 4 Pronunciation 5 Witchcraft 6 Dolphins 7 circle justice 8 Cleanup

[edit] inland Tlingit & map

Hi again. Here is a bit from McClellan (1981:469):

The Inland Tlingit of the 20th cent. have mostly lived in Teslin village, which grew up around a trading post established 1903 on Teslin Lake in southeastern Yukon Territory, and in the mining town of Atlin founded in 1898 on Atlin Lake in extreme northern British Columbia. Some are also in Whitehorse and other settlements of Yukon Territory, or in Juneau, Alaska. In 1974 the Canadian government formally recognized the Teslin and Atlin bands, members of which usually refer to themselves as Tlingit, although the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development designates the Atlin band as Tahltan. The Inland Tlingit have never formed a cohesive tribe nor made a treaty with the government of Canada, either as a total group or severally.

Although their ancestors formerly lived along the upper Taku River, during the 19th and 20th centuries most of the Inland Tlingit moved permanently across the divide to the headwaters of the Yukon River, perhaps splitting the ancestors of the Athapaskan-speaking Tagish from those of the Athapaskan Tahltan. Some or all of the Inland Tlingit may themselves be descended from Athapaskan-speaking Indians that adopted Tlingit as their chief language owing to extensive trade and intermarriage with coastal Tlingits during the 19th cent. Specifically, they may be the descendants of the Athapaskans that Dawson and Emmons called Taku and described as speaking Tahltan or a closely related dialect and in fact the Tlingit they speak diverges somewhat from that of the Coastal Tlingit, who class them as ġunana· 'strangers'. By 1970, most Inland Tlingit children spoken only English.

Although both Tlingit and Athapaskan speakers may share common roots in interior northwestern America, Barbeau was probably wrong in describing the Inland Tlingit as remnants of a classic Tlingit society that was once widespread in Yukon Territory and British Columbia. Rather, they represent a late expansion of Coastal Tlingit, or of their influence, triggered by the growth of the Euro-American fur trade. The main impetus for the Inland Tlingit move to the Yukon headwaters was the availability of fine land furs for which demand swelled following the near destruction of the sea otter in the late 18th cent. The Klondike & Atlin gold rushes of 1898 led to the final concentration of the Inland Tlingit in the Yukon drainage.

Because the Inland Tlingit shifted their areas of exploitation, the size of their territory at any given time is difficult to estimate, but the whole of the Taku and Teslin-Nisutlin plateaus, which they intermittently occupied, comprises about 4000 sq. mi.

I am wondering if the reason that Goddard's maps do not show the inland people's area is because he is following this idea of the inland peoples being a more recent expansion or merger. I know that you much more knowledgeable than me: what do you think about this? (perhaps I could just try to ask Goddard himself...). thank you. — ishwar  (SPEAK) 01:29, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

The Inland Tlingit are definitely included in the Tlingit people. They speak the same mutually intelligible language, although with some characteristic pronounciation differences and some different words. They have the same clans, the same moieties, and most of the same stories. If indeed they started out as Gunanaa, like the Kwashk'kwáan of Yakutat they have become purely Tlingit people. They come to Alaska to participate in a number of Tlingit conferences and gatherings, and represent themselves as the Tlingit in Canada.

There are a few groups of Inland Tlingit, more than McClellan seems to recognize. There is the T'aaku Kwáan which lives along the Taku River. There is the Áa Tlein Kwáan which lives around Atlin Lake. There is the Deisleen Kwáan which lives around Teslin. There is the Tagish Kwáan which lives around Carcross and Tagish. And finally there is the Gunaaxoo Kwáan which lived at Dry Bay and up the Alsek and Tatshenshini Rivers; this latter group has been mostly absorbed into Yakutat and no longer lives in Canada.

The Inland Tlingit were certainly a "recent" expansion, taking place from the late 18th century through the mid 19th century, and occasioned by the Euro-American fur trade. But connections and intermarriages between the Coastal Tlingit and the interior Athabascans had occurred long into prehistory, and there was plenty of commerce and travel between the two groups. The process was gradual, and only accelerated by the increased fur trade, not initiated by it. As far as the modern situation stands, these people consider themselves Tlingit today, and their elders speak Tlingit and are working towards revitalization of the Tlingit language rather than any of the neighboring Athabascan tongues. — Jéiyoosh 19:12, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edit War of August 27–30, 2005

Can we please stop having this silly edit war? When I wrote that paragraph I specifically chose the word "obligated" because I meant that the father's clan has no formal obligations in this situation, but that sentimental reasons would often sway their behavior. The difference in the use of "oblige" versus "obligate" is an American-British distinction, and since this article is about an American ethnicity, and written mostly by Americans, I believe the American usage should hold. In any case, knock of this senseless edit war over a single word.

[edit] Sourcing - Angoon

Hello. This article is very well-written and detaied. My main concern lies with the Angoon section; primarily, the statement that "millions" died of starvation. I do not wish to downplay the seriousness of the incident, but that number seems dubious to me. Could someone provide a source for this, or correct it if it is indeed erroneous? In addition, the section as a whole seems slightly POV. For instance, there is no mention of the 1973 settlement worth $90k made by the US government to the community for the bombardment. This does not take the place of an apology, but is worth noting. SReynhout 11:52, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

The “millions of” is some anon wiseguy's idea of a joke. I never noticed that edit, so thank you for pointing that out. It's expunged. I also added mention of the settlement. As for the POV, it could be minimized a bit, but I am not the one to do that. If you would like, go ahead and make some edits to that section to reduce the POV a bit, and I'll ensure factual accuracy. I have not considered sources other than anthropological and historical ones which discuss the Tlingit experience, so a bias is somewhat unavoidable. If you have access to other sources which are not Tlingit-centric then that would help. Commander Merriman's diaries were available to Frederica de Laguna, but I have no idea where you would find them today. — Jéioosh 20:27, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

The current description of the pronunciation as "clink-it" is fairly inadequate. I'm assuming that the IPA is /tɬiŋɡit/ or something similar. Does anyone know what it is, so it can be added next to the current approximation? --Whimemsz 23:19, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

It may come as a surprise, but you're wrong. The pronounciation in English is actually /'klɪŋkʰɪt/ which the guide approximates fairly well. The vagaries of history have left us with a spelling that is inconsistent with the pronounciation, but this isn't exactly uncommon for English. The Tlingit name is completely different, spelled Lingít and pronounced ɬɪŋ'kɪ´tʰ, not used by speakers of English.

The difference here is that there is an English ethnonym which is different from the ethnonym in Tlingit, and the pronounciation guide is for the English name not the Tlingit one. Does that make sense? — Jéioosh 02:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It does, yes. Thanks for explaining it for me! Take care, --Whimemsz 02:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I've added the IPA to the article. I've looked at two sources: The American Heritage Dictionary [1] lists (not in IPA): "tlĭng'gĭt, -kĭt, klĭng'kĭt". The OED lists "('klɪŋkɪt or 'klɪŋgɪt; also, incorrectly, tl-)". Since AHD prefers "tlĭng'gĭt" and OED deprecates it, and in the absence of a definitive source, I suggest a compromise of "/'klɪŋkɪt/ or /'tlɪŋkɪt/, also /-gɪt/". It isn't the first time two dictionaries contradict each other. --Dforest 06:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary is flat out wrong, and the OED is correct in deprecating /tl-/. The English pronunciation is /'klɪŋkɪt/ and /'tlɪŋkɪt/ is an orthographically biased mistake. All Tlingit people say /kl-/, both the monolingual English speakers as well as the bilingual Tlingit speakers. This is true for both Alaskan and Canadian speakers, whose dialects of both English and Tlingit vary. Some Tlingit people do say /-gɪt/ rather than /kɪt/ although they are a small minority. In Alaska everyone who knows anything about the tribe says /kl-/, agreeing with the Tlingit themselves. One of our state senators who happens to be Tlingit, Albert Kookesh, would voice his offense if he heard a public figure make the /tl-/ mistake, it would be a ridiculous political gaffe. In Canada opinions are likewise. I will modify the article to deprecate the /tl-/ pronunciation.

I guess I should follow the above with the caveat that Tlingit people are inured to the constant mispronunciation of our name. The word is easily pronounced according to English phonology, despite the misleading spelling. We expect people to mispronounce it the first time. If a person persists in mispronouncing the name after being corrected then it could be considered an insult, à la calling US people “murrakins” as I've heard some Australians do, or it could be considered pretentiousness, trying to “correct” a naïve pronunciation. But for the uninitiated it's not an unexpected confusion. — Jéioosh 18:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I also just adjusted the incorrect pronunciation to /tə'lɪŋkɪt/ with an epenthetic vowel separating the /t/ and /l/ and the stress shifted forward. This is how most English speakers pronounce it, since /tl/ is an impermissible consonant cluster in initial position. This may be splitting hairs, and if someone else decides to go back to the /tl/ I won't complain. — Jéioosh 19:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

A few more sources: the Columbia Encyclopedia [2] gives "tlĭng`gĭt" only and Merriam-Webster [3] gives "'tli[ng]-k&t, -g&t also 'kli[ng]-". There are countless names of places and people that are spoken differently outside their population. Praha and Prague, Tōkyō and To·ky·o, etc. Many of these pronunciations come about because of "orthographically biased mistake(s)". I think we should stick to the dictionary sources per WP:NOR. I disagree about the epenthetic vowel; even if we say /'tlɪŋkɪt/ is 'wrong' (which I disagree with), then /tə'lɪŋkɪt/ is doubly wrong — a mispronunciation of a mispronunciation. --Dforest 01:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I really feel that you're wrong here. No, I know that you are wrong here. The examples you give like Praha and Prague are different languages. The term Tlingit is an English word, it's not some other language. The orthographic representation derives from American attempts at recording /ɬɪŋ'kɪ´tʰ/. It was historically spelled a number of ways, including "Hlingit", "Linquit", and "Qulinkit" for examples. Would you like to list a pronunciation based on one of those spellings? The current pronunciation is based on over a century of use both in and outside the region. It is used by the native English speaking people themselves, by scientists, by historians, by travel writers, and by nearly everyone else who has any knowledge of the people or culture. It is not a foreign, interpreted word, it is an English word as nativized as "Mexico", "German", or "Brazil". If you met someone who pronounced "Mexico" as /mɛks'iko/ would you not correct their pronunciation to /'mɛksɪko/? If they said /'ʒɛɹmən/ would you not correct them to /'dʒəɹmən/? How about Connecticut as /kə'nɛktɪkət/ or Illinois as /ɪlɪ'nwa/? There is a right way and there is an uninformed and wrong way to pronounce these names in English, and they are all English words.

Dictionaries are not the be all and end all of pronunciation, especially regarding words which are not in frequent use in the language. It's quite obvious that the dictionary editors who have listed /'tlɪŋkɪt/ have never heard the term themselves, they are simply guessing or copying an erroneous entry in a previous dictionary. Dictionary editors are not savants who intuitively know the pronunciation and definition of every word in a language, so they make mistakes through either research laziness, lack of oversight, or for many other reasons. The listing of incorrect entries is not a new or rare problem in dictionaries, see Lexicographic error for examples. Also, the fact that English speakers cannot ordinarily produce an initial /tl-/ consonant cluster is indicative that it is not an acceptable English word. The fact is that /tl-/ is a popular mistake based solely on the spelling of the word, produced by people who have never heard the term before. Anyone who has heard the term from a knowledgable speaker will without variation use the /kl-/ pronunciation because it is a more natural English word.

I am all for linguistic descriptivism, but there are still mistakes no matter how relativist the interpretation. I am listing the /tl-/ pronunciation as incorrect again, and until you find a source other than a dictionary which gives this as a standard pronunciation, please leave it. The fact that you are willing to accept the incorrect pronunciation purely on the basis of dictionary authority indicates to me that you have no authoritative knowledge of the word, the people, or the culture. I do. — Jéioosh 18:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

That's fine. I basically agree with you. I'm sure you are far more familiar with the Tlingit than I am. But I wouldn't be so fast to discredit the dictionaries. I am just trying to defend the WP:NOR and WP:V. You rejected my argument about Prague & Praha as two different languages. But English is not the same English everywhere. My point is that orthographic errors become part of the language. There are conflicting pronunciations shown in several dictionaries. If we are to discredit the dictionaries we need a more definitive verifiable source. I suggest that rather than prescribe which is correct & incorrect, it may be better to describe how the Tlingit pronounce their name in both English and their native tongue. Dforest 19:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add my two Canadian cents' worth to what Jéioosh says. I live in the Yukon and when I first came here in 1989, I, like may newcomers, mispronounced it. I was soon corrected. All the Tlingit people I know (and I do know a fair number) as well as all other Yukoners (except for newcomers) pronounce it with the "kl" sound. So the dictionaries that say otherwise are wrong. Luigizanasi 01:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, it's interesting that you mention "murrakins", as "American" was once corrupted as meriken in Japan; a number of words from the Meiji Period still use this: meriken-ko (a kind of flour) meriken-hatoba (a harbor), and a contemporary example, Kobe's Meriken Park, "opened in 1987 to commemorate the 120th anniversary of the opening of the Port of Kobe." --Dforest 02:19, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

That is interesting. I wondered where it came from. But it's not germane to this argument, again it's a crosslinguistic phenomenon and what we are discussing is a purely English problem. — Jéioosh 18:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is there is no pure English. Dforest 19:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Witchcraft

The edit as of 7:00PM EST (-5 GMT) January 19th claims that "No witchcraft. Witchcraft is a European concept." While there may be no witchcraft common among the Tlingit, but I was quite certain that beliefs in magic (not the witch on a broom European/American stereotype, but witchcraft nonetheless) was very common especially among the Southwestern Indians. To the point of good shaman killed and butchering the purveyors of bad magic as to separate all essences. Could someone much more knowledgeable on the Tlingit provide some insight (or someone more knowledgeable on Indian/Native American cultures)?--152.23.202.29 00:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dolphins

"Carbon dating techniques have recently shown (2001) that coastal people's bone structure closely resembled that of dolphins. This indicates that coastal people have lived on a seafood diet for at least hundreds of thousands of years, if not longer." Is this vandalism, or am I missing something? It's interesting enough that I don't want to erase it if it means something.

[edit] circle justice

say about it

[edit] Cleanup

First off, this article is waaaay to long. It needs to be shortened, by making subarticles and writing abstracts of each topic. Also, it needs to be wikiformatted. I can see very few wikilinks throughout the entire article. Also, there's some weird thing going on at the bottom of the page, with the "=" topic. What's that about? I'm not capable of cleaning this article up, but at least I'm marking it up for you. /Grillo 00:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, the last four topics are weird, what about the text in brackets? Is that some kind of to do-list? In that case, it should be either here on the talk page or in hidden text. /Grillo 01:00, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

When I started writing this article I was unfamiliar with Wikipedia practices, hence the “to do” list incorporated into the article. Feel free to comment out that stuff, but it should be kept as a reminder of the proposed article structure until someone replaces it with content.

If you really want to separate the article into smaller subarticles, feel free to do so. I am focusing what little time I spend editing on Wikipedia almost entirely on the Tlingit language articles. If you do separate the article into subarticles, try to do so on the top sections and make sure that adequate in-article stubs remain to give the reader a lead-in.

Also, if you want to make content edits to this article, make sure you start by working from Emmonds and De Laguna’s works, not the older works of the Russians or Germans. The two major works by Emmonds (The Tlingit Indians) and De Laguna (Under Mount Saint Elias) are recognized by both anthropologists and Tlingits as being the most important and accurate sources for Tlingit ethnography. Both should be available in any good research library, or at least available through interlibrary loan. — Jéioosh 15:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)