Talk:Timothy Treadwell

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Timothy Treadwell article.

NOTE: Old, non-article related discussion of Timothy Treadwell has been moved to Talk:Timothy_Treadwell/Archive_of_non-article_related_Treadwell_discussion

Contents

[edit] Cleanup

[edit] article needs cleanup

There's too summarizing of POV material from the documentary film. It seems unfair to highlight his drug abuse years as the introduction to who he was. Also no mention about how long he spent with bears. article at the moment sounds like he was a newcomer to bears. That poaching was not a major issue is disputed by Treadwell's friends. (there is a followup film to the documentary where Herzog talks to Treadwell's friends about what they thought about the documentary where they emphasize this and also that they thought the film made Treadwell seem more unbalanced than he really was)

I'll try to address some of these issues later on. - Bwithh 16:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] my changes

  • at the top:
    • added Amie Huguenard's age (don't know if this is the proper way though)
    • added: "At the end of his thirteenth year..."
  • in biography:
    • changed the wording on his drug addiction to "recovering from an earlier drug addiction", it makes it more subtle
    • added: "which he videotaped and photographed the last five years of his life"
  • in death:
    • added info on his thoughts about saving the bears and his promises about never hurting them
    • because it is actually a video tape I changed "audio tape" to "audio recording"
  • added information about the Leonardo DiCaprio film

The Death part can be reworded. The "Troopers" part is messy. - Halli —The preceding comment was added by 69.22.244.250 (talk • contribs) 04:56, 5 February 2006.

[edit] Rewrite/McCandless - 2/21/06

I've attempted to clean up this article a bit to make the language and layout more encyclopeadic. I removed a lot of the POV material and added a new section, entitled "Legacy," to cover how he is viewed now after his death. I'm no expert on Treadwell, so I went off of what news articles I could find to try and clean this up. Comments and edits to fix errors and help further this along are encouraged. --Lendorien 08:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Further edits are needed I think. Even with my cleanup, there was too much POV. Encyclopeadias are supposed to be as factual as possible. I think more research is needed, including looking at news reports (which I tried to do a little of) and other accounts outside of Grizzly Man, which isn't a very objective documentary from what I've read. --Lendorien 09:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I second the removal of the Christopher McCandless reference. It isn't relevant, and it's insulting to McCandless. Haizum 02:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The inclusion to his article seems most likely placed in due to the fact that both died in the wilderness and that is not even a close-enough knit reason to justify that mention of See also in this article, since Treadwell and his girlfriend's death is well documented and the cause is known while McCandless' death according to the article is left as a mystery. If someone was using it as a venue to jump into a list of "Deaths in the wilderness" it might have held some morbid relevance, otherwise it is just rubbish and should be removed since it has no real standing connection to anything in the Treadwell article. 65.145.213.175 04:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delist as cleanup article?

I think most of the significant cleanup issues for this article are cleaned up. I propose delisting it as a cleanup candidate. I'll wait a week for responces, then delist it if there are no objections. --Lendorien 21:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

It looks good and the issue of the standing cleanup is spotty at best, unless you count the need to watch over the article for people making moronic edits to it due to the airing of the documentary on Discovery currently. Once that surge of attention dies down it should be okay. 65.145.213.175 04:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Cleanup tag removed. Cheers! --Lendorien 02:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alaska + last name

I've read in several places that while Katmai was actually Treadwell's favorite, it was not the only park he visited. Do you think that should be included in his bio? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hli (talk • contribs) 15:43, 5 February 2006.

Was "Treadwell" his real last name? I remember hearing somewhere that he changed it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.193.126.138 (talk • contribs) 11:00, 6 February 2006.

He did change it, his real last name is Dexter, but in the movie I think his father said the Treadwell name was in the family. Perhaps we could say "Treadwell (born Dexter)" or something, whichever way is best... --Hli 22:17, 6 February 2006

[edit] Article self-contradiction

The article contradicts itself. In one place it says:

"Whether the tape was actually destroyed or not is unclear."

Later it says:

"The audio recording, along with the other tapes recovered, are all intact"

Which is it?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.67.158.73 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 6 February 2006.

The latter. The interview with Treadwell's friends that aired on Discover revealed that the tapes are still intact. --Mr. Vernon 04:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
It might be both. In the interview with Treadwell's friend (who apparently owns the tape). The director advised her to destroy the tape. We don't know if she really did that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.143.106.185 (talk • contribs) 05:06, 13 July 2006.

[edit] Bear vs. bears vs. grizzly bear

From what I have read, no-one can be certain if the couple was eaten by one, two or three bears. It is not even clear if more than one bear was responsible for the attack. All they know is that the pilot saw one bear standing over the couple's remains; the same bear that was later shot by park rangers, inside which they found human remains. The younger bear (3yr - which was also shot) was eaten by other bears before authorities got a chance to perform a necropsy. To my knowledge (bear with me...) authorities did not investigate other bears in the area, so no-one knows just how many bears "were involved".

Furthermore, these bears are not grizzly bears, but coastal bears. The word "bear" is therefore, imho, more suitable.

But, to say the couple was eaten by "a bear", let alone "a grizzly bear", is solely based on speculation. Maybe we should say "attacked and partially eaten by bears", suggesting that there might have been more than one bear, and in the worst case scenario we are talking about bears in general, where I am not sure people will necessarily think of a herd of bears, but instead just think of a generic brown bear. Does that make sense? Hli 13:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

this needs to be clarified and made consisttent throughout the article. The first paragraph says he "lived among the Coastal Grizzly bears," and the reference to grizzlies is repeated at least six times. But then the article says "Despite the organization's name, Treadwell did not associate with grizzly bears, a term properly applied only to brown bears that live farther inland." Either we call them grizzlies or we don't, but once the call is made it has to be consistent. Anson2995 02:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added Nickname section.

I added a reference to his popular nickname among Alaskan. I would like to see more added on the impression his life and death had on people who live in the state. I don't know how to submit this wikipedia without sounding like a jerk, but from what I understand, he did more damage to bears (the thing he proclaimed to love) and their environment than all the poachers and developers ever could. What is really disturbing is that he had to take someone else with him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thadvde (talk • contribs) 16:51, 8 February 2006.

I see your point. The problem is that most of the additions to the article regarding the more negative aspects of his "work" have sounded too personal and in dire need of citation (things like "wanker" are not helping). If we are trying to have this article reflect on both the positive and negative impacts of his, well, existence, then we should make sure we are adding a positive fact for every negative. I'm not defending him in any way, but at the same time I see no reason to make him look bad, either.
The article is struggling to be factual; quotes on him being a kind genius or an evil wanker would help everyone.
And yes, she should not have been there, let alone die for his dying interest in the grizzlies. But he shouldn't have died, either. - Hli 05:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
You see my point?? The only aspects to his work were negative, that's it. He was an idiot and he died like one, the man won a Darwin award. The only positive thing to say about him is "he's dead", to say nothing of the negative way he died at the same time would still give him to much credit as a human being. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.229.143.91 (talk • contribs) 17:11, 12 February 2006.
Removed this section. The "supporting" external link reference was totally irrelevant. Bwithh 00:57, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death

Having seen the documentary, I find the description of Treadwell's death odd. While the tape is not played, its contents are made clear and there is an interview with the coroner. This evidence shows that Treadwell was attacked by a bear which grabbed his head from behind (claw marks). His girlfriend is heard hitting the bear with a frying pan as Treadwell tells her to run.

The pilot who came to collect the couple found part of Treadwell's head and part of his backbone. The rest of him was found, along with his girlfriend, inside the stomach of a bear shot at the scene as it attacked the party sent to recover the remains.

As it stands, this article implies there is some lack of clarity on the matter. But remember bears are wild animals and this would not be out of character. Treadwell himself documented how, when food was scarce, the bears ate their own young. They'd have no qualms about eating Treadwell, who had chosen to camp where the bears went to feed and took no precautions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stephennewton (talk • contribs) 09:30, 14 February 2006.

But the documentary also suggested that it was a particular bear who was known to be likely to be aggressive. there was even a segment where Timothy points out the particular bear as one likely to be agressive and one he would not approach. They also found a hand or arm with Timothy's wristwatch. Bwithh 18:22, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who is Jewel Palovak?

There is a link but there is no article for (her?). Is she the person that was warned not to listen to the tape? Was she a friend or relative of Treadwell? In short, what does she have to do with this? -Kasreyn 21:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

From what I remember of the film, she was a former girlfriend and later she worked with timothy on the grizzly people organization, which she still runs or something. her house was in the area where timothy visited and he would start his expeditions there. Bwithh 22:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Jewel apparently runs Grizzly People and helped found it, and was his girlfriend for 3 years. However, the woman whose house he visited was NOT Jewel Palovak's house but another woman, apparently a platonic friend, who lived near the park in Alaska where he would leave his camping equipment during the winter when he was away from the park. I just finished watching the documentary but I cannot remember her name. --CokeBear 04:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incomplete entry.

At the end of the "Death" portion is the sentence:

"But on Febuary 26, 2006 a small 2 minute segment of the recording."

...the recording what? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Moneyp (talk • contribs) 20:42, 26 February 2006.

Was a portion released today? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.145.70.156 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 26 February 2006.

[edit] Obsessive Compulisive Disorder / Schizophrenia?

Is there any information out there that would prove / disprove that he was suffering a mental illness recognized by the DSM? His speech patterns certainly resemble some types of OCD, and coupled with his general behavior and skewed perception of reality could possibly even indicate a residual classification of schizophrenia. I just finished watching "Grizzly Man" and I think he had some psychological issues that go beyond being an eccentric. He wasn't a biologist, an animal behaviorist, or really anything above an "enthusiast". His films not only rarely educate, but reveal a deluded impression he had on what he was doing. Whether or not his foundation did any good in setting aside habitats is another matter: his active role of living with the bears clearly demonstrated that he did not have a firm grasp on reality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.63.249.222 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 1 March 2006.

Wikipedia's place is not to prove or disprove his sanity. The best we can do is provide and present the arguments of credible sources that investigate the question. Until we have said sources, it's not really the place of Wikipedia to have the opinions of its users in the article. --Lendorien 02:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
However, if there are records or documentation that indicate he was at some point diagnosed or recommended for observation because of concerns of mental conditions, or basically any verifible info in that regard, this is the perfect place to put it. The man obviously demonstrated behavior that makes more than one or two people wonder if he suffered from mental illness; having a short section in this article addressing that question with reputable sources, be it 'yes', 'no', or 'unclear', would be entirely appropriate.GarageBay9 21:15, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
That's more or less what I was saying. It is appropriate for here, but only if we have sources that ponder that question. Individual wikipedians making that assertaion is not appropriate in the article however. See the policies on Original_research. Sources are key in an encyclopaedic article. --Lendorien 19:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree on one point: "unclear" viewpoints should only be included if there are at least some definite "yes" or "no" sources. After all, if the only sources quoted are "unclear", then the question arises as to why wikipedia would even be reporting on the matter! Likewise, if the only sources are "unclear", then it would appear very likely that the entire thing is nothing but a character attack on Treadwell, which it would be wrong and disingenuous of us to give credence to. Please find sources who make clear and definitive statements if you want to include the insanity allegations. Thanks. -Kasreyn 05:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
As a medical professional, from watching his own documentary film evidence, I must make the following conclusions:
Tim Treadwell:
was clearly paranoid.
suffered delusions of grandeur
had an addictive personality despite sobriety
probably needed psychiatric care and medication
possibly had OCD Pabobfin 17:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
That may be so, and I don't say I disagree, but you'll want to review Wikipedia's policies on Original_research. We'd need verifiable published sources before we can site it in the article. --Lendorien 19:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
In addition, I should point out that Wikipedia has no way to verify the credentials of its editors. I'm not calling you a liar, but there's no way we can trust that you actually are a medical professional, so arguments from authority can't be considered. -Kasreyn 05:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
True that you cannot verify that I am anything but a Wiki contributor. Pabobfin 08:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
What the hell is a medical professional, what are you a janitor at the hospital or something? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.123.220.247 (talk • contribs) 11 June 2006.
Please refer to WP:CIVIL. Remember to keep a cool head and comment on the comment, not the person. Kasreyn 17:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


I am not a “medial professional”, but I know a little bit about schizophrenia, and I don’t think Treadwell’s behavior was anywhere close to the types of behaviors and speech Schizophrenics exhibit.
This article gives some evidence that Treadwell may have been bipolar.
http://www.dailyinterlake.com/articles/2005/04/01/news/news01.txt
This review says he was actually diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2005-08-25/film/film.html
Though we can’t say with certainty that Treadwell was bipolar, we should at least say in the main article that it is likely that he was.
Xargon666x6 15 November 2006

[edit] Availability of tape of Timothy's last few mins on Internet?

Have temporarily removed the assertion that the tape is available on the Internet - it sounds like an urban myth, I can't substantiate it, and it's possibly libellous. Barnabypage 18:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Good call. There are a number of faked versions floating around on the net. best to just leave that out. LisaPollison172.140.145.18 19:37, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
This is to clarify that the tape you're referring to is the one containing Timothy's last few minutes, and not the Grizzly Man video. --Amit 02:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. Barnabypage 14:04, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added reference to AP article

Thought this article by AP provided sound and factual account of Treadwell. Cephas

—The preceding comment was added by 194.80.240.66 (talk • contribs) 09:04, 4 April 2006.

Any second source for that article? It looks a lot more like a blog rant than a real news agency article... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.119.130.132 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 10 April 2006.
No way is it AP - I think it's just citing the existence of an AP story as the starting point for a rant. I've commented it out. Barnabypage 13:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bio info

I'm not sure where he was born but, Tim Dexter did live in New York. I know in 1975 he went to Connetquout High School in Bohemia, New York were he graduated.--163.192.21.44 01:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)L heinlein 8/14/2006

[edit] Anon Edits

A recent edit by 60.48.119.2 claims that remains were found in bear manure, including "his missing genitals." I suspect that this is simply vandalism, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. If someone can post a cite to back up the claim, we'll keep it. Otherwise it's gotta go. Anson2995 15:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

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