Talk:Tightlacing/Archive 2

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Stopping by corset.

If you stop by corset, your have some problems by your breathing and have risk of lumbago.

Breathing problem.

I people from the mountain move to the lowlands, they have breathing problem, because they have train the thoracic breathing. Opera singer and feminine athletes have corresponding problem. A woman who has a good thoracic breathing in corset, will have corresponding breathing problem without corset.

Risk of lumbago.

The joints in spinal column, have need of some fresh oxidized blood, two time every day, or the joints been stiffed. If the corset are rigid or tightlacer not train every day, she have a risk of lumbago, if she go without corset.

How many times do we have to say that we need proof?! Haabet, you provide no proof. You make a series of statements which seem dubious. The only way to persuade Zora and me that you are correct is to provide some references - to valid modern sources, such as medical textbooks, encyclopedias, something that we can trust and believe.

Anybody can make statements and have them follow an internal logic - that does not make them true. For example, "The first man on the moon planted a U.S. flag there, effectively claiming the moon for America. As the moon is made of green cheese - a product unheard of on earth - the U.S. government is sitting on an unrealised fortune of billions of dollars: selling contracts to mine green moon cheese and transport it back to earth would make the richest country in the world even richer."

See? It's easy to make stuff up! Now, I'm not saying that you're making things up - but because your English is difficult to follow and because we cannot check on your facts, we cannot believe a lot of what you write. It is not up to us to find sources that support your arguments, it is up to you to provide us with your sources. Where do you get your information from?

Imagine how it would look if a respected university professor claimed to have found a theory that demonstrates cold fusion - he wrote a paper and published it on the internet. He does not refer to any modern sources, to the work of any of his peers, he only refers to a book that was published in 1847 - and many of the so-called scientific theories in this book have been disproven since the book's publication. Are the professor's fellow scientists going to respect him for discovering this? No, they're not going to believe him, and they're probably going to think that he's barking mad. Are power companies going to offer the professor billions of dollars to share his secret? Not without lots and lots of proof!

You do yourself and your theories a disservice, Haabet, by not giving us supporting evidence. And you're driving us absolutely crazy. If you cannot give us proof, then I suggest that your time would be better spent researching and finding it, rather than fruitlessly arguing about things here/

- Katherine Shaw 11:27, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

dear Katherine can you came by any serious source when say as Tightlacing is safe and not speak about corset from the two small approved corsetrys: C&S Corsetry and Wasp Creations Corsetry?

In 1855 a doctor say: "the modern corset, moderately tightened, is without appreciable influence on the health of the healthy woman"

In 1887 a doctor say: "The liver may be displaced upward or downward according as the pressure is applied below or above. The precise situation where the pressure is applied will vary with the prevailing fashion of dress; but most commonly in this country the displacement is downward." I know as displaced upward is the correct. It was a change in the health of corset from 1855 to 1887. But many corsets today are of the unhealthy type from 1887. And your are a sadist who would like make damage on woman, and never tell about how important, it is to get the corset from a approved corsetry.

Haabet 12:54, 2004 Dec 9 (UTC)

I wanted to thank you for the personal slur (a "sadist", am I? well, I've learnt something about myself today), and to correct you. You say that I "never tell about how important, it is to get the corset from a approved corsetry." Why, then, would I add information about tightlacers using "a well-fitted corset (most serious tightlacers have at least one custom-tailored corset)"? The last thing I want is for somebody to be injured by wearing a corset.

There is precious little admissible evidence on the medical effects of tightlacing, which is why I've always been so keen to know your sources. I'll see what I can dig out to support myself this evening. Perhaps there should be some more information on the discomfort and effects of tightlacing - I do try to be gracious when I might be wrong, but you make it very difficult when you tell me I'm wrong and never offer any EVIDENCE. (And you make me feel like I'm always repeating myself.)

- Katherine Shaw 16:06, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

Tightlacing on VfD

Give me a chance to get to my bookshelf before you go accusing me of original research and listing this page for deletion, why don't you Haabet?

I think that the best source reliable source for information on the medical effects of tightlacing is Valerie Steele's book The Corset: A Cultural History (which is now listed in the article as a reference). She's a well-respected fashion historian and worked extensively with a doctor, Lynn Kutsche, on the effects of corset-wearing. They refute Victorian medical claims that the corset caused scoliosis, tuberculosis, congestion of the blood, that it 'cut' the liver in two - in fact, just about every medical charge made against the corset.

In the interests of being NPOV, they do note that wearing a corset laced too tight can have some temporary adverse effects - not fatal ones - which include indigestion (some tightlacers also say that wind can be a problem!), shortness of breath and consequent faintness. The worst corsets are straight-fronted ones, which were worn around the turn of the century, which could cause lower back-pain because of the extreme curve created there, and they say that it is possible (although not proven) that the pressure exerted by the busk could aggravate an existing problem and contribute towards a prolapsed uterus. Note that none of these problems are fatal!

As Steel writes, no reasonable person today believes Victorian claims that masturbation caused blindness and insanity; we have no good reason to believe Victorian claims that corsets caused tuberculosis and liver disease!

- Katherine Shaw 10:24, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Haabet, I stayed up till 3 in the morning to start the Victorian dress reform. There is a section in there on tightlacing, which I haven't finished. I will add various anti-corset quotes to that section. If necessary, we can expand that section into a breakout article. Since you seem to take your medical opinions from the older materials, perhaps that will be satisfactory? Zora 23:02, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, if you write anti-corset quotes from that era, you have need too tell, why they say like that. and if they have right, why people do wrong thing of that ara.

maybe it is an idea by two articles. One by Tightlacing up, and one by Tightlacing down. anatomical and healthy they are various. Haabet 19:49, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)

She is press flat, and the liver deformed. 1904

She is not normal but, have a opposite corseted form. Natural the lower ribs drooped, but her rips go up. 1904

The one woman is seriously Tightlaced, but the second woman is also a formed by corset, but by in another shape. 1779

Normal (bad) Corset. She have normal lowest ribs. The ribs down in the top of the corset

Straight-Fronted, Edwardian, (Transitional "S-Shape"), corset. She have normal lowest ribs. The ribs follow the top of the corset

This woman is seriously Tightlaced. Likely as she had liver damage. She thest is oval, not broad as modern tightlacers

Haabet, wants a response

Haabet, you say you want a response, but there is NO WAY to respond to you. You keep posting the same 100-year-old pictures. I can put some of them in the dress reform article. But they don't prove anything. These are the same doctors who thought masturbation caused blindness and insanity. Searching by myself, I found links to one contemporary book and one contemporary letter from a nurse to the British medical journal decrying tightlacing. I can add those to the tightlacing article. But if you can't speak English and suggest sensible, grammatical additions to the article, we can't process any of your input. It's incoherent. Zora 05:13, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Corset is a 100-year-old technique. And all corsetrys today use a 100-year-old principles.

And more a 90% of all corset sold today, is the Narrow chest type.

Any corset today is the best corset from the patents.

Haabet 07:30, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)