Talk:Tiger I

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I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where) that Guderian preferred the Panther over the Tiger because the Tiger was too slow. If anyone can confirm this, I think it would provide some balance to the entry on the Tiger. Armor and the main gun aren't the only main variables in a tank's performance. Speed is also a weapon.

Article (1) has Guderian more neutral on the topic, specifying Tigers and Panthers for different types of regiments.

(1) http://www.warlinks.com/equipment/tank_research/section_a.html

INVESTIGATIONS IN GERMANY BY TANK ARMAMENT RESEARCH, MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

SECTION A POLICY REGARDING THE FIGHTING EQUIPMENT OF TANKS AND SP GUNS Interrogation of General Guderian

(2) http://www.monarch.net/users/miller/ww2/history/Panther_Lost_the_War.htm

The Tiger, well this got silly. It was like a great grizzly bear fighting off wolves. If it could back into a tree or rock to cover its tail, it was near invulnerable. In open terrain the German guns were far more deadly than ours. The Tiger was an excellent tank to defend with, but like the PzIV, too slow to fight ?maneuvering battles? with the T-34s. The Panther changed all this. Although it wasn?t quite as fast as the T-34, it was fast enough to negate the T-34 advantages. It had a new 75/70 gun that was even more deadly than the old Tiger 88/56. The Panther could not only defend as well as the Tiger, but gave the Germans an offensive tank again.

(3) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERmanteuffel.htm

Hasso Manteuffel, commander of the 7th Panzer Division, had strong views on tank design.

Tanks must be fast. That, I would say, is the most important lesson of the war in regard to tank design. The Panther was on the right lines, as a prototype. We used to call the Tiger a 'furniture van' - though it was a good machine in the initial breakthrough. Its slowness was a worse handicap in Russia than in France, because the distances were greater.

Could this be moved, either to the German name for the tank, or to Tiger I Tank? When I saw the article title, I thought it was an article about some monarch called Tiger the first. RickK 02:38, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

"Tiger I" is by far the most familiar name, so I think it's in the best place now. As far as I know, the only "King Tiger" is - wait for it - another German tank :-), aka the Tiger II. Stan 04:38, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)


"German agents embedded within the U.S. government and military working against this"

I dont believe there were any significant German agents in U.S. government and military. Much less i believe, they were able to influence such a decision. Or to put it in this way: Never suspect a conspiracy, when the same result can be achieved by incompetency.

Chris

Contents

[edit] Gun Barrel

Please, what is the attachment on the end of the barrel? Gillean666 5 July 2005 10:53 (UTC)

That's a muzzle brake, to reduce recoil. --Carnildo 6 July 2005 20:20 (UTC)
FYI, most modern tanks have a fume extractor in the middle of, or sometimes on the end of the gun barrel. You can recognize a muzzle brake because it has one or more set of perforations. —Michael Z. 2005-07-6 21:12 Z

Thanks guys! Your info is much appreciated. Gillean666 20:42, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Combat History.

The section on combat history is more of a history of the T-34 and other allied tanks. And I am dumbfounded by the assertion that the Tiger was not a good offensive weapon, that simply isnt true. If you look at its role in many eastern front offensives, including Kursk, you will see it was a very strong offensive machine.

True. Furthermore, it was less than effective at Leningrad due to the terrible weather and intense artillery fire encountered when the Germans tried to unload their new tanks off of the train.

Yeah, I agree. This article makes it seem as if Tigers couldn't do anything without breaking down. While it is true that the Tiger did break down more than other tanks, they could still get the job done(If the weather had let up in Leningrad). Aaron L.

[edit] King Tiger

Contrary to what the article claims, the Tiger I was hardly related to the Tiger II at all. Aside from a few shared parts and the same caliber cannon (not the same cannon, though) they were two very different tank. In truth, the Tiger II is much closer in overall design philosophy to the Panzer V Panther.

The Tiger II only superficially resembles the Panther. The Panther was a balanced design with good firepower, armor and mobility. Both Tiger designs deliberately favored firepower and armor with much less mobility. The Tiger I and II shared the same engine and road wheels, but most importantly they shared the same doctrine and role. DMorpheus 20:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cost

It would be great if the article could include a definitive, or at least sourced example of how much a Tiger I cost to buy. I have included a link to a page at "Achtung Panzer" which has a table of unit prices, but other sources on the internet [1] give a much higher figure (800,000 RM to 299,000 RM). This page [2] has some handwaving which suggests that a Tiger tank cost fifteen times that of a Sherman, although I don't trust it at all. I remember a website called "", now sadly defunct, which I think had a fairly extensive breakdown of a Tiger's requirements in terms of raw materials.

Also, this is essentially an article about a piece of industrial equipment, but like other articles about tanks, guns, cars, aeroplanes and so forth I imagine it must attract a lot of unsourced speculation, hyperbole, rumours and stories. I understand that there is an impulse to praise the Tiger as an over-engineered but lovable brave knight, a noble and doomed giant brought low by hordes of cut-price, low quality imitations etc, and so I have cut out the paragraph about the Tiger's "enduring brilliance".

Although it might be hard to source, there should be mention of the Tiger's glamour and reputation, and also of the "Tiger fever" whereby rattled Allied soldiers would often mistake up-armoured Panzer IV's for Tigers, and would indeed ascribe any half-glimpsed angular metal vehicle for a Tiger. -Ashley Pomeroy 12:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

you may be able to find some info from the AFV Interiors by searching in the http://archive.org/ "Wayback Machine", if you know the site's URL. Regarding "Tiger fever", be bold! —Michael Z. 2005-10-20 14:37 Z


[edit] Tigers I only vs Soviet tanks?

It is misleading to compare the number of Tiger Is to the numbers of all T-34+KVs+IS-s. It leaves the impression that the Tiger I s were the only German AFVs engaged in stopping the Soviet tanks. Panthers, Tiger IIs and up-gunned Pz3s and Pz4s should be added to the German list to produce a more accurate ratio (but even that would be incomplete as SP artillery should be counted for both opponents). Or T-34 should be excluded from the Soviet total if you wanted to compare the numbers of heavy tanks only.

Veljko Stevanovich 30. 11. 2005. 10:15 UTC+1

Agreed, incomplete comparisons without any context are not useful, or even misleading. Some information about total number of tanks/AFVs produced, the cost or rate of Tiger production, the proportion of Tigers built could help paint a picture of this tank's importance in production terms. —Michael Z. 2005-12-9 20:12 Z

[edit] Speed?

The article now says the Tiger was faster than an M4 Sherman, which is hard to believe and contradicts the Sherman page. DMorpheus 18:54, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that's totally inaccurate. Shermans were known for outflanking Tigers with their superior speed and moneuverability. Aaron L.

I have no idea why the Tiger I is commonly thought to have a top speed of 38 km/h. The most detailed and professional technical studies of the Tiger by W.J. Spielberger and T. Jentz (Panzerkampfwagen Tiger und seine Abarten & Germany's Tiger tanks - D.W. to Tiger I) both indicate that the vehicle's top speed was 45 km/h. Also a top speed of 45 km/h is mentioned in a secret German publication 'Datenblätter für Heeres Waffen, -Fahrzeuge und -Gerät' from 1944 giving a top speed of 45 km/h. So if nobody has more reliable sources, I think that we're going to have to put things back in order and put correct performance data in the article. Sad but true: Tiger I was faster than many allied tanks.

LV 20:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)LV

[edit] Tiger heavy tank (1942) vs. T-34 medium tank (1940)

"The sloped 45 mm front armor of early T-34s gave them enough protection to prevent the earlier German 50mm guns from penetrating, but with the Tiger's 88 mm gun it was a different story. The Tiger could penetrate the T-34's mantlet or glacis plates from over 1,000 meters. As the range dropped as the tanks closed on each other in combat the T-34s were even easier to penetrate. Early T-34s and KV-1s had a weak 76.2mm F-34 gun whose AP shell was unable to penetrate the Tiger's frontal armor, regardless of range."

This is a slanted comparison. The "early T-34" medium tank mentioned was in service in 1940, and the better model 1941 started production before Germany invaded the Soviet Union. By the time the Soviets encountered the Tiger heavy tank, the T-34 model 1943 with 70 mm of front armour, sloped at 60° from the perpendicular, had been in production for a year (vs. the Tiger's 100 mm vertical). T-35-85s and Soviet SP guns with 122 and 152mm calibre were soon in service. By the end of 1944 the Germans had sent 1,350 Tigers to two fronts, but the Soviets had 11,100 T-34-85s (85mm gun, 90 mm sloped front armour) and 2,354 IS-2s (122mm gun, 160 mm sloped armour) in service!

"The Tiger was, in truth, more maneuverable and faster than the majority of other tanks in World War Two. The Tiger's top speed of 38 kph was actually nearly twice the top speed of 20 kph of Churchill VII. And it was also faster than some models of M4 Sherman. The Tiger had reliability problems and a poor radius of action but by no means was it slow. It also had a lower ground pressure bearing than most Allied tanks, the most notable exception being the Soviet T-34."

Also a slanted comparison—picking out the outstandingly slow Churchill. Faster than the majority of models, or most tanks?—I suspect either is false. Why not mention that the Soviet heavy tanks were just as fast, and about 65,000 T-34s were much faster?

At least let's try to compare the Tiger to a contemporary heavy tank in armour, armament, and mobility, as well as the production cost. —Michael Z. 2005-12-14 09:46 Z

Good point. Here are some road speeds (all in KM/hr) of the most common tanks of WW2 compared, just as a start:
  • Churchill: 24
  • Valentine: 24
  • T-26: 28
  • KV-1: 35
  • IS-2: 37
  • Tiger I: 38
  • Panzer II: 40
  • Panzer III: 40
  • Panzer IV: 40
  • KV-1S: 43
  • Panther: 45
  • Sherman: 48
  • T-34: 55
  • BT-8: 62 (on tracks)
  • Cromwell: 64 (wow, that Rolls-Royce Meteor was something)
  • BT-8: 86 (on wheels only; tracks stowed)

Conclusion: The Tiger I is not "faster than the majority of other tanks in WW2". In fact it is slower than all its common opponents except the IS-2, and then only by 1 km/hr. The only way you could call it 'fast' is by comparison to British Infantry tanks, which were designed to sacrifice speed for heavy armor. DMorpheus 16:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Its speed was not bad for the behemoth that it was—this should be pointed out. As you say, those British tanks were not technically heavy tanks, but infantry tanks, which were designed only to keep up with dismounted infantry—the same applies to the Soviet T-26 light tank. —Michael Z. 2005-12-14 17:22 Z
Thanks for the sort of the list. I edited the main article along the lines you suggest; the Tiger was about as fast (or slow) as the IS-2, for example, and both are slower than most medium tanks. No surprise there. I think the original article may simply have claimed too much. DMorpheus 17:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Your edits are a good improvement to the article. Thanks. —Michael Z. 2005-12-14 18:07 Z
Yeah, well as we know, the Sherman was manufactured with several different engines of varying outputs. Therefore I find it a bit inaccurate to say that the Sherman had a top speed of 48km/h. Check onwar.com. Plus the Tiger's ultimate top speed was actually 45km/h @ 3000rpm, but it was not recommended and even if it was used, it was for very short distances, e.g getting from an offensive firing position to another. The speed of 38km/h could be achieved at the 8th gear @ appr. 2500-2600rpm. The Panther's top speed was 46km/h @ appr. 2500-2600rpm and 55km/h @ 3000rpm (Spielberger,W.J, Der Panzer-Kampfwagen Panther und seine Abarten), but again, this was not recommended. The Tiger really was a bit faster than some Shermans and some Shermans were faster than the Tiger. I'm not saying that the Tiger was not particularly fast, but that it was not as cumbersome and slow as commonly believed.
Hard to say. There are so many aspects of mobility. It seems to me it must have been under-powered for its weight, but the floatation was quite good. On the other hand, are there any good statistics on reliability? Surely the ability to operate for X hours without a breakdown has to be considered an element of mobility. I recall editing Villers-Bocage - maybe the most famous single Tiger engagement of WW2 - and noticing that although Wittman had five Tigers and a Pzkw-IV under his command and on site, he chose to attack a much larger enemy unit using only one tank. Why would anyone do that? How many of those Tigers could move? Did he attack using one vehicle because none of the others were running? Or did the guy just have a death wish? I honestly don't know the answer, but it begs analysis. Likewise, in reading the histories of Tiger battalions, over and over what emerges is "battalions" with one or at most two companies' worth of tanks operational at any given time. You don't find that in US tank battalion records. If they are supposed to have 50-odd tanks, usually most of the tanks they have are acually operational. This is a different question than whether they actually had all the tanks they were supposed to have. What I am getting at is, of the tanks they had on hand, what was their operational proportion? DMorpheus 03:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the Tiger was underpowered. That was it's main drawback. It just couldn't keep up with the superior speed of Allied tanks. Aaron L.

You're absolutely right, the Tiger was unreliable and prone to breakdowns. But as I have stated above: it was not as cumbersome and slow as commonly believed.

LVLV

I see you several rimes state that the frontal armour of the T-34 was upgraded, when infact, it never was. The armour on the TURRET was upgraded, to the maximum of 90mm, but the frontal armour that was sloped at 60° never changed. The sloped frontal armour was 45mm from the start to the end of the war. --84.208.76.45 15:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

You're correct about the hull armor, but the turret front is also encompassed by the term "frontal armor". DMorpheus 16:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I know, but I thought I mad my point pretty clear, and I really didn't think anyone would really bother to nitpick that, that's why I didn't write a fuller reply.

[edit] Tiger vs. Panther and Panzer IV

I've heard that if Hitler had kept on producing Panzer IVs and Panthers, he might have had a better shot at winning the war. Maybe because these tanks were lighter? More versatile? What do you guys think? Aaron L.

Thankfully Hitler and his cronies made many, many poor decisions. You are correct that some of the dumbest were in the area of industrial management. Still, it seems to me a nazi victory scanrio is not only difficult to imagine, it is well outside the scope of any article on any one weapon system. By the way, the Germans never stopped producing Panthers and Pzkw-IVs until they collapsed. DMorpheus 22:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I know that. I just meant that instead of trying to mass-produce Tigers, he should have been focusing on Panzers and Panthers.And I'm not saying that the entire war hinged on this decision, I'm just saying that he might have had a better shot if he kept on building Panzers. Aaron L.

Once the United States entered the European land war, Hitler didn't have a chance. Better strategy, better industrial management, and better treatment of counquered populations could have countered the Soviet Union's production advantage, but couldn't have matched the combined industrial and manpower capacity of the United States and the Soviet Union. Remember, US tank forces weren't able to defeat the German tank forces through any superiority of design or tactics: it was because the United States was able to produce three Shermans and the Soviet Union was able to produce four T-34s for every Tiger, Panther, Panzer IV, or Stug III. --Carnildo 00:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
We're sort of straying far afield from the Tiger tank, but I think the notion that the only real reason the USA and USSR won the war was simply by out-producing the Germans is a distortion at best. Better industrial management was a necessary but hardly sufficient condition for victory. If I recall, we outproduced the Vietnamese too, but we didn't beat them. In fact I think a good argument can be made (elsewhere) that Allied & Soviet strategy was far superior; allied & soviet operational-level command was generally superior in the second half of the war; and even on the tactical level there were plenty of allied units that were the equal or better than any German unit they faced. But none of that is really relevant to the Tiger page. DMorpheus 00:48, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tiger a response to T-34

The article states that the Tiger was built in response to the T-34. I beleive this is incorrect, and is even contradicted further down in the article when it is stated that the design for the Tiger began in 1937. I beleive the Panther tank was the German response to the T-34.

I think so as well. As far as I know the Tiger tank was based on the outdated design of the Panzer IV. The Panter tank however used the superior sloped armor (after encountering the T-34). warpozio 11:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it is slightly more complex than that. The Germans did various design studies for heavy tanks long before they had ever seen a T-34. So did the French, for example. Some of their pre-war heavy tank designs dwarf the Tiger. But the Germans didn't actually build any or even make serious preparations for building any. Once they saw the T-34, they immediately rushed to design a much bigger, better-armed heavy tank and got it into the field as fast as they could. For instance, the pre-T-34 heavy tank design had a 75mm L/48 gun. After the T-34 showed up they shifted to an 88mm gun, forcing a much larger tank design. The US worked on designs that were similar to, and led directly to, the T-26/M-26 Pershing long before seeing a German Panther, but there's still no doubt that the tank eventually made it to the field primarily due to the Panther.
So, I don't think there is any contradiction between the notion that the Germans worked on heavy tank designs as early as 1937 and that they fielded the Tiger in response to the T-34. Both statements are true. DMorpheus 14:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, I can take it a step further than that. The Tiger was based extensively off the VK3001 project, which was a proposed replacement for the PzIII an IV. As originally envisioned they would have been in the 30-35 ton range and probably had a 60-80mm frontal armour base and a 75mm gun, possibly the L43. Obviously, with the Pz III and IV being effectively brand new in 1940, the project was tooling a long with a low priority and was abandoned when the T34 was encountered, but it proved an excellent basis for the VK4501(H) prototype that would eventually become the Tiger. Getztashida 12:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ammunition

I think this article needs to show the types of ammunition(pzgr,pzgr39,pzgr40 etc) on the stats on the right for more information. -Anonymous

[edit] Weight of Tiger I

Why does the Tiger I have this massive weight for only 100mm of armour (pretty light for its size) when IS-2's, Churchills and Pershings are somewhat lighter with similar or even heavier armour?? I still don't get what's with the weight, can someone explain?chubbychicken 10:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The Tiger was quite a large tank - a large box with thick walls is going to be heavier than a small box with thick walls. Catsmeat 16:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Right. Compare the volume of the turret on a Tiger I with, say, a Churchill is revealing. The Churchill turret, while thicker, is *much* smaller (and can only carry a much smaller gun). The Tiger also uses huge flat slabs of armor while the IS-2 and M-26 use large castings with compound curves that also cut weight. This is not without cost; the IS-2 stowed only 28 rounds of main gun ammo while the Tiger had more than twice that amount. The IS-2 had only four crew and carried some fuel externally; the Tiger had a five-man crew and no external fuel. The M-26 had a five-man crew and comperable gun power but is a lot smaller. DMorpheus 17:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, much of the weight can be attributed to the gun and turret, both of which were much heavier than the equipment on the Churchill. Getztashida 12:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Engine Governors

Why did engine governors get installed? And why do they reduce the Tiger I's speed?chubbychicken 10:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a guess, but I'd bet that the higher speeds (and resulting higher engine loads) likely caused mechanical issues. — ceejayoz talk 02:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
That's right, revving any engine at high RPM a lot wears it out a lot quicker, and obviously governing it back reduces the output, which directly reduces speed. DMorpheus 17:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Many tanks heat up quickly when running at top speed. Dudtz 10/27/06 7:14 PM ET

[edit] Porsche's VK 4501(P)

There's little mention of Porsche's VK 4501(P) [aka Tiger (P)], should a subarticle be added under Tiger I, or should Tiger (P) be written as a brand new article (as there isn't one yet).

Should belong to design history where it's already mentioned (very small at the moment but it's there). --Denniss 22:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure the Porsche turret issue is correctly stated in the article. Currently it says the first 50 Tiger Is were fitted with 'Porsche turrets'. Sounds so much like the Tiger II I wonder if it is an error? My understanding is the turrets on the Porsche and Henschel Tiger I prototypes were very similar, if not identical. Could this be a minor mistake in the article? DMorpheus 20:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
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