Talk:Tiberian vocalization

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I suggest, regarding the title of this entry, that "Tiberian" not be called a "Hebrew language" at all, but rather a written system developed for the vocalisation of Biblical Hebrew.

If so, then perhaps it should be merged with niqqudot. Note that that article right now is very incomplete, as it constrains to the pronunciation of Standard Hebrew without mentioning the Tiberian system that was developed. - Gilgamesh 08:32, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Niqqudot 2 Evidence 3 Writing style or pronunciation style? 4 New information

[edit] Niqqudot

I just wanted to confirm the name niqqudot. I would have thought Nequdot, no? Am I mistaken? jnothman ^talk 13:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

You're right. There are two different words: ‎נְקֻדּוֹת‎ nəquddot 'dots' (the ‎plural of nəqudda) and ‎נִקּוּד‎ niqqud '(the act of) dotting'. (Obviously I just ‎used a mixed sort of transcription to try to make the point clear. In the ‎Tiberian pronunciation style they're [naquddóːθ], [niqqúːð]; in Israeli Hebrew ‎‎נקודות [nekudót], ניקוד [nikúd].)‎

[edit] Evidence

There is currently a single source for this pronunciation approach. It is not clear to an outside nonexpert reader (such as myself) if this is widely accepted among scholars or a single individual's opinion. It seems to present the individual's personal research. Has this article been published in a scholarly publication? If not, it's not clear it satifies WP:SOURCE policy. This subject is not my area, just want to make sure this article is appropriately sourced, and also that it appropriately assesses the viewpoint's notability and reliability as WP requires. I can't can't tell from the article. Additional sources, especially sources directed at a lay rather than a scholarly audience, as well as dissenting views if any, would be appreciated. --Shirahadasha 19:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The gist of the article is common knowledge to people in the field. There aren't even any points of dispute on the basic history. As time goes on I'm sure people will add basic refs. to some books or articles. Perhaps the most convenient link would be to the articles at the Aleppo Codex website. 06:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Writing style or pronunciation style?

First, I'll define my terms. By the phrase "pronunciation style", I refer to the fact that some people will pronounce a word one way, and others will pronounce it another way. (For example, people from Boston will call the city "Bah-stn", but others will call it "Baw-stn".) By the phrase "writing style", I refer to the fact that some people will write a word one way, and others will write it another way. (For example, "color" and "colour".)

Does "Tiberian" refer to one, or the other or both? On the one hand, the "Jewish Languages" box in this article lists Tiberian as a dialect, alongside Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Yemenite, and others. I understand this to be the same as what I've called a "pronunciation style". Similarly, throughout Wikipedia, there are many articles which offer "Tiberian" as an alternate pronunciation. For example, the article about Moses begins:

Moses or Moshe (Hebrew: מֹשֶׁ, Standard Mošə Tiberian Mōšeh; ...

The use of Latin characters ( Mošə and Mōšeh ) clearly implies that we're not talking about a style of writing Hebrew. (They didn't use Latin characters in Tiberias!)

On the other hand, most of what appears in this article describes Tiberian as a system of how to put Hebrew sounds on paper, that is, a way of transcribing phonetic sounds. For example at this link [1], IPA is contrasted with other ways of communicating the proper way to pronounce "Al-Qaeda". If this is a correct way of understanding "Tiberian", then it does not refer to a local dialect of how words were pronounced in Tiberias, but rather it refers to the invention of a set of nikud and symbols which are used to show how to pronounce Hebrew words. But if that's the case, then what is "Tiberian" in contrast to? Were there other, competing writing styles? (Other than the obvious consonant-only version of written Hebrew?) --Keeves 12:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

It is very hard to draw analogies to English, and they are not likely to be accurate. This is especially because in semitic languages there are no formal vowel-letters.

To be precise: This article discusses a complex set of symbols that were created in order to preserve an extremely detailed oral textual tradition (yes, there is such a thing) for how to read the Hebrew Bible. This tradition preserved an exact way of pronouncing each and every word in the Bible, as well as detailed information on syntax (how to group words and divide sentences) and further information on letters (i.e. how words should be spelled in the written text, which did not contain the then-new set of symbols for vowels and cantillation).

There were indeed other competing systems of pronunciation, such as the Babylonian, for which competing sets of written symbols were developed. Some details of spelling differed between them as well.

As for Moses, what you have is the Hebrew word with the Tiberian vowel symbols, followed by a transliteration of how those symbols are rendered in modern Hebrew pronunciation, followed by a further transliteration of the Tiberian pronunciation they were originally conceived to represent. (I personally think the transliterations in this particular case are both redundant and slightly inaccurate.) Dovi 13:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Babylon was not only a place where other Semitic languages were found, but the Hebrew language was spoken differently there than in Tiberias. If this is accurate, then I would think that it is rather meaningless for so many dozens of articles to show the Tiberian pronunciation without contrasting it with the Babylonian pronunciation. If you agree with me (and I suspect you do, given your comment about "redundant and inaccurate"), then I'd like to invite other Wikipedians to add the Babylonian pronunciations to these articles. And if no one is able or willing to do so, then I would volunteer to remove these Tiberian pronuciations from so many articles. What do you and others think? Thanks! --Keeves 14:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Correct. The "eastern" Jews of the Babylonian diaspora (as opposed to the "western" Jews in the Land of Israel) employed a parallel system of pronunciation for the biblical text, and developed a complementary set of written symbols for it. That doesn't mean it is "meaningless" to show Tiberian alone, since historically it was far more influential, and is much more widely studied to this very day.

As for whether it should be removed, I can see both keeping it (why get rid of good information?) or removing it (modern Hebrew transliteration should be enough). I have no strong opinion either way, but I do remember that a couple of years ago there was some major controversy about this, and what remains is apparently the compromise that was reached.

Happy Rosh Hashanah to all! May we all be blessed with a new year of peace and success. Will return after the holiday. Dovi 15:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New information

Aldozamudio 20:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Aldo Hi, I added some new information on the subject concerning Bibliography, phonetics (examples and IPA), the situation in our days. I added them as separate subjects and didn't mess up with what was already extant. Hope you like it.