Wikipedia talk:Third opinion

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[edit] Initial discussion copied from Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)

I've just had an idea. Say two Wikipedians are arguing over some obscure page, watched by no one but them. (This has happened to me.) All they need is a third opinion - someone to break the tie. Hence, Wikipedia:Third opinion. This will be a constantly changing page on which controversies involving only two Wikipedians are listed, so that a tiebreaker may be found. If a third opinion is provided otherwise, the controversy should be delisted. If a user decides to provide such a third opinion, he should remove the controversy from the page. This will ensure that the page will not be cluttered, and will allow for third opinions to be delivered with haste. What do you think? — Itai (f&t) 00:15, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Surely this is just the same as mediation? GeorgeStepanek\talk 00:26, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, mediation is more complex and takes more time, and other steps are supposed to be taken first. I like this this idea a lot. It's like a streamlined version of WP:RFC. Maurreen 05:29, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, more like small-claims court. Neutralitytalk 16:37, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
It doesn't matter just what it is, but yes, the idea is to allow conflicts to be resolved quickly. "Controversy", by the way, is maybe too strong a word. I was thinking more along the lines of "content dispute". — Itai (f&t) 21:02, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested formatting

I've put a suggested formatting up on the project page. The content should probably be rephrased entirely - I did my best - but I just want to get a feel on whether people find this formatting appropriate. If you disagree with the formatting or the content, simply modify the project page. Once formatting and content are decided upon, we can see if this can be integrated into the Wikipedia dispute-solving procedures. In the meanwhile, hack away. — Itai (f&t) 21:00, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] RFC

We might want to eventually link this from wp:rfc. Maurreen 08:34, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've put a note at Wikipedia talk:Resolving disputes#Wikipedia:Third opinion. — Itai (f&t) 08:45, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think that redirects back to here. Do you think this is ready to go? I don't see why anyone would object. I think we might also want to link it from a general dispute resolution page. Maurreen 22:13, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think I was confused earlier. Anyway, I've linked Third opinion from the project page at Wikipedia:Resolving disputes and asked at WP:RFC about linking from there also. Maurreen 02:56, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

I was going to merge this into WP:RFC but then it struck me that this procedure seems to be working well for 'smaller' disputes and that the two complement each other quite nicely. Please tell me if I'm right? Radiant_>|< 08:43, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

I prefer to keep this separate. Maurreen (talk) 15:54, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] First-to-report bias?

I'd like it to be understood, first, that I'm not criticizing the idea of having a page to get third opinions on disputes. I think it's an excellent idea. The problem I have is that by its current structure, the first person who decides to report the dispute gets to present his/her side of the dispute -- and silence the other side, it seems from those who try to reply being told "This is not the place for this discussion." There would be no problem if people abided completely by the instructions to provide one-line, unsigned, neutral summaries, but a quick look at the page shows how many people fail to follow even the first two non-subjective parts of the instruction. Taking it as a given, then, that people are and will continue to provide biased summaries of the disputes, allowing the dispute to be characterized solely by the first side to bring it to WP:3O seems rather unfair.

An example is one of the disputes which has just been brought to WP:3O for the second time, where the nominator tries to draw a connection between a disputed sentence in one article and a number of VfDs that have been brought against other articles he feels are "his". From my perspective, the problem is exactly that he is publicly declaring that these VfDs are being brought because there is some sort of campaign against him, rather than because they are POV forks and personal essays -- not to mention that he is calling me a thought policeman, a vandal, a deletionist on behalf of the drug industry, etc.

Currently there is no requirement that an editor who lists a dispute on Third opinion must notify the other editor involved in the dispute, no matter how serious the allegations being lodged against that second editor. Even if that second editor becomes aware that the dispute has been listed there, he or she appears to have no recourse: since the first party is presumed (often falsely) to have followed the instructions to describe the dispute neutrally, the second party is not allowed to point out any facts the first editor left out or any different viewpoint on the matter. The second editor is either blindsided or left with nothing to do but merely hope that whoever steps in to give a "third opinion" actually takes the time to review the dispute in detail and glean from what could be a complicated history of the dispute the viewpoint of the second editor, which he has been barred from giving directly by the decisions of the first editor. These seem like structural flaws of the current set-up that severely limit its ability to resolve rather than exacerbate disputes. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:29, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I understand your concern, but how would you improve it? Possibly the "third opinion" will take into account the fact the person listing the disagreement doesn't follow instructions at least. Maurreen (talk) 18:40, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, someone may see flaws with this idea that elude me, but how about simply requiring that the editor who reports the dispute on WP:3O notify the editor he is disputing with and that editor gets the right to provide their version of the dispute if it differs from that of the first editor? If the first editor fails to notify the second, or if the second editor declines to respond, both of these can be taken into account. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:08, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't object to requiring notification. But in my view, this page isn't the place to actually discuss the issues. That fragments the discussion.
For example, I think people should just say "Disagreement about foobar," and not go into any detail here. For one thing, that keeps everything streamlined. Maurreen (talk) 23:47, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree -- this should not be the place for full-scale discussion. But since even editors disputing in good faith may have different ideas what the dispute is "about", it can harm the chances for getting the dispute actually resolved to take only one side's opinion what it's about. One editor may believe and state that the debate is about whether the information he's adding is correctly cited and referenced. If you ask the second editor, however, to him it's about whether the article needs more lengthy quotations from the article subject when they already outweigh objective information about the subject by a factor of eight to one. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:39, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

OK. Maurreen (talk) 04:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Anything anywhere to get info on staulking? Scott 23:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Settle Current sports events formatting, please

Can we get someone to settle the Current sports events pages, please. Zoe and I are in disagreement on how the page should look. NoseNuggets 11:41 US EST Jan 12 2006.

[edit] 3rd opinion on Crime against humanity

As the page clearly says, discussion needs to be made here rather than there. As we already discussed at the article talk page, there are only three editors involved in discussion there, and as Swatjester had listed me as a vandal a couple of days ago, which was quickly removed by an administrator, I do not regard him as a neutral third party. No fourth editor has edited on the article since the 3rd opinion was asked for. Get-back-world-respect 01:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Urm

Why only put the date stamp when you can see who wrote something by looking at the history? Slizor 17:02, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

  • It gives a veneer of anonymity at least, which I think is a useful thing. The user who actually posted the request is clearly identifiable but isn't at the center of it when you read it. (ESkog)(Talk) 20:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
  • But sometimes the person who does bring it sometimes asserts himself into the center of it, by either removing references or merging before consensus (State Road 4081 (Florida), for example). There is now a dispute at State Road 913 (Florida), State Roads in Florida, and Rickenbacker Causeway in which neither editor is willing to accept the validity of the references the other has made in an attempt to make his point, and the two (one of whom is a colleague of mine) are at an impasse. 147.70.242.39 21:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
    • I know I'm right, but I'm being tag-teamed. I will continue to revert your bull. --SPUI (T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 21:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
      • Yep, you picked a fight with two editors who work together at a Miami-area college. Your refusal to consider anything beside one self-conflicting source and a probable misinterpretation of facts landed us here. But you are not correct on either count - and the Wikipedia editors who read the articles and follow the histories (including at least two articles that you are trying vehemently to hide after putting one up for WP:3O) can make up their independent minds. It's time for common sense to reign on this matter, and clearly we cannot rely on either "combatant" to have much common sense here. 147.70.242.39 22:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 9/11 Commission Report

Just wondering why was that listing inapropriate? --Zr2d2 19:53, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Because "third opinion" implies that only two opinions currently exist, and the rules specify that it's for small conflicts involving only two editors (usually on obscure pages not getting much public scrutiny). The listing on the 9/11 Commission report already had many editors involved in the discussion. Those types of conflicts aren't likely to be helped by Third Opinion anyway, so they should go straight to mediation if civil discussion breaks down. Fagstein 06:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo

A recent dispute started in this article, recently, due to a revert war started, because of the intro-part of the article. A certain user User:Osli73 kept insisting on a definition which violates the most important UN Resolution nr 1244 in force in Kosovo. The abovementioned law does NOT mention in any part of it, that Kosovo is a part of Serbia, but instead refers to it as a legally a part of Former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Kosovo is administered by and interim UN administration, according to that Resolution. The current version of the introduction in the article is consistent, and refers to the current facts on the ground. The compromise on that version was reached after a couple of months of negotiating of parties involved in the dispute, until the user above re-started inserting his pushy POV. Third opinion on this would be appreciated. It is advisable to followo the talk page on the article, where the discussion on the introduction part took place, to get a better picture of the dispute. Thanks in advance, ilir_pz 10:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Layout

I've changed the layout back for two reasons:

  • The start-warning-end template is a bit jarring, especially on a page that in my opinion is already far too much of a howto, which pushes the important part (the list) farther down the page.
  • The subheadings by month are unnecessary, since items are listed chronologically with their dates, and there shouldn't be more than a few entries in the list at any time anyway.

Those are my two cents. Fagstein 08:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, sounds great! Perhaps we can reduce the how-to then? (and thanks for not getting upset over my changes... I just thought that some attention needs to be paid to the layout of this page. There are somethings wrong... some instructions are stated more than once, and it looks like a english proffesor wrote it. Suggestions:
  1. Reduce the overall number of instructions. The person posting should not have to read through multiple wordings of the same thing.
  2. Reduce the length of each instruction. State them short and brief.
I will post my suggested revisions here now:). They will be rewordings.Eagle talk 16:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested changes

1. Drop this statement:

In the context of disagreements—related to policy or content—sometimes these disputes involve only two editors. This frequently happens on obscure pages, which not many people watch. To me that is a waste of words.

And reword the first paragraph to contain the infomation in the above: Like so...

The Third Opinion is a guide for the use of third-party mediators in a dispute. Sometimes a dispute between two editors cannot be brought to a compromise and a nuetral third opinion is needed.
  • Notice the addition of two editors. (state that requirement from the start), and the addition of nuetral-- which should point to the un-biased 3rd party required, also another requirement stated from the start).this was edited in after original post: Eagle talk 17:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • One paragraph is better than two in this case, as it is easier to read and uses fewer words to communicate the same meaning.

--Eagle talk 17:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

2. Move the category links:

Third opinion
pt:Wikipedia:Opinião de terceiro
  • These can be moved to the bottom of the page under the links. Doing this will cut down the clutter at the top of the page. All that is really needed below the opening paragrah is the {{dispute-resolution}} tag. The others can go at the bottem of the page.

--Eagle talk 17:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

3. Infomation in ==Guidelines==:

  • Merge all the infomation in this section into the other sections. All we are doing here is restating the purpose of the page. If there is unique infomation, lets move it to other sections.

--Eagle talk 17:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mock Up

I am going to rewrite the instructions in a mockup page.

--Eagle talk 17:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the new mockup to simplify and organize things better, and keep the "Active disagreements" section empty of instructions. It should now be much clearer what people should do when they add disagreements and respond to them. Fagstein 04:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Do it... lets put the mockup on the page... :)Eagle talk 04:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Done. Fagstein 07:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I've probably screwed that by a reversion to an older state by Eagle, see below why, at least one pending request so far got no 3O. -- Omniplex 11:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Appropriate nature of 3O disputes

Over the last few days, this dispute has repeatedly popped up:

  • A user, User:MiamiDolphins3 consistently and inappropriately removes "stub" status from several pages including Marilyn Milian and others. Request to keep a watch on these pages as this user either has a very low learning curve or is a silent vandalizer. Drdr1989 09:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that this dispute suggests that we may want to clarify what sort of disputes are appropriate for the 3O mechanism, so that people don't get frustrated with it.

The current instructions allow for "any controversy involving only two editors". From looking at some past 3O disputes, it looks like the 3O mechanism works quite well for content disputes pursued in reasonably good faith by both editors involved. But when one or both editors are bound and determined to have their way, the third opinion rarely seems to solve the problem. And when people are suggesting continual monitoring or disciplinary action, as the user submitting this dispute seems to be doing, the 3O mechanism seems completely inappropriate; the 3O provider isn't in any better position than the 3O submitter to force their way on a recalcitrant editor.

I might suggest adding a new paragraph to the instructions, something like this:

  • Note: The third-opinion process works best in resolving content disputes pursued in good faith by both editors involved. The third-opinion provider will simply provide another view on the dispute that the parties may find helpful; he or she will not act as a mediator and cannot discipline either side. If you suspect that either editor involved in a dispute will not accept a third opinion constructively, or if you feel that disciplinary action is called for, a third opinion is unlikely to be effective; you should instead pursue a more formal dispute resolution process, such as a request for mediation.

Kickaha Ota 04:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I further suggest that the page refer to "exactly two editors" rather than "only two editors". --Takeel 16:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I would appreciate and abide by a third opinion on whether the Marilyn Milian article is a stub. As I described on the talk page and in edit comments, the article may have further development potential, but it contains the person's name, date of birth, place of birth, detailed information on two educational degrees, educational awards, professional positions held, information on her current professional role, information on her spouse, parents, and minor children (including the names of both), along with a succession box, a photo, nine categories, and even information on her professional travel schedule (she lives in Florida but periodically commutes to New York City, in case anyone cares). If this is a stub, the vast majority of bios on wikipedia would be deemed stubs. And nothing prevents further additions, as needed. But this is not a stub, and it would be helpful if user User:Drdr1989 was instructed that this does not meet the threshold for a "stub," particularly because it draws editors' attention away from bios that are legitimate stubs and worthy of much more urgent attention that this article. Thanks. I believe I am correct on this, but I will abide by whatever third opinion is issued on this matter. MiamiDolphins3 17:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean to 'rule' on the 3O in question, or to state that either editor involved was in bad faith; I just thought that it made a good example of the sort of dispute that might not be appropriate for 3O, especially because of the request for continued monitoring. Kickaha Ota 17:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I think a third opinion would be useful and hopefully settle this matter before this User:Drdr1989 (who seems very emotional and persistent, as evidenced by the absurd request for "continual monitoring") unjustifiably escalates the matter further. Nothing about this article Marilyn Milian spells "stub". It contains all necessary encyclopedic information and some info that even goes beyond that. Thanks, and I hope a 3O will settle it to both of our satisfaction. MiamiDolphins3 17:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I just provided a third opinion on the Talk:Marilyn Milian page. Kickaha Ota 17:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I like the idea behind the notice, and it should probably be included. However, we're currently looking to simplify the page, so a shorter and more to-the-point sentence might be useful, and/or splitting it up and incorporating the ideas into the instruction lists on our mockup. Fagstein 04:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of request without 3O

What's the point of removing requests which never got a 3rd opinion? [1] -- Omniplex 10:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It would appear that Eagle 101 thought that the request was old enough that a third opinion would no longer be useful. I don't think that requests should be removed for that reason. Obviously, you agree. :) Eagle 101 removed a bunch of other requests on June 14 as well, though from the looks of things most of them were for the much more ironclad reason that third parties had already entered into the dispute (thus effectively rendering a third opinion, even though it wasn't in response to the 3O request).
When you returned your 3O request to the queue, you undid a large number of changes to the wording of the 3O page that have been made over the last few months. So I reverted your change, but I did re-add your 3O request to the queue. I'll try to look at it later today if I have time. Note: Never say "I'll try to look at it later today if I have time." Fate will make sure that you don't have time. :) Kickaha Ota 13:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Correct 2-3 of the articles had requests for third opinions on material that was moved to the talk page archives of that article. These were the ones that were 2-3 months old and disscusion on the talk page had ceased for about 3 weeks. (I am willing to go back and find those articles and re-paste them on this list if consensus wants me to.) I am not sure if removing them was the proper thing to do as per policy, but... removing old entries has made this page look better. Now it gives fellow wikipedians more hope that issues brought here will be dealt with in a timely manner. Eagle talk 06:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the other removals from that time period, and they looked genuinely dead. So I think this one is the only one that needs to be reopened. With any luck someone will provide a 3O soon and we'll have a nice clean list again. Kickaha Ota 16:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I'm patient with this one pending entry, I just didn't want it to vanish silently. But I saw the #Mock Up section here too late. If you're waiting for a 3O you're probably watching the page in question and the 3O page. For the latter it would be nice to have (dummy) sections, because that would show up as "@topic xyz: 30 given, removed, list not empty". With a bullet list as it was and is the edit summary is only "3O given, removed, list not empty", and I often checked if this was by chance about my entry. Probably stupid, because then it would also show up on the page in question, but sometimes I miss stuff in my watchlist. -- Omniplex 17:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me or has no one commented on this disputed since March? --Hetar 04:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

You're talking about the dispute listed about Categories, series and list boxes? It has a March date stamp, so I guess it's not just you. Fagstein 06:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
It was originally removed, and only recently re-added. I'm too lazy to provide diffs though, just check the history :) --AbsolutDan (talk) 14:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No need for third opinions

wp:rfc is better. There's no point to a separate third opinion page. Any dispute in which a third opinion would help would be better solved with more opinions. Better to have just one section where people interested in giving their input could go to see where it's needed. I'm currently in a dispute with one person here, over an infobox, and it seemed like this is the place to go, but I think a RFC is better. I don't want to trust just one person to break the tie. In fact, I'd probably take it to the next level of dispute resolution even if more people were against me. -Barry- 19:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

  • For a lot of things, yes, RFC is better, but in some cases, it's far simpler and quicker to just get a third opinion - especially in cases where it's just a matter of pointing the relevant guidelines to the parties. Perhaps we should make it clearer, though, that the third opinion can be to recommend an RFC. --Scott Wilson 19:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3O is just that, an opinion

I recently posted a third opinion request (for this discussion) and this resulted in input from two other editors being added. However after their input a number of other editors got involved in the discussion... Thing is the first person who offered the third opinion seems to be of the belief that his 3rd opinion is what should be done - it's the casting vote (see [2] & [3]) even though the discussion has grown since then.

What do you think can be added to the project page to prevent this sort of misunderstanding? Thanks/wangi 13:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't interpret that discussion the same as you. Maurreen 15:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, you've lost me there - the discussion itself still isn't resolved, there's still no consensus. However the editor who gave a third opinion seems to be of the view that his third opinion holds sway over all others (see the comments in the diffs above). Thanks/wangi 08:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I read the discussion. I disagree that "the editor who gave a third opinion seems to be of the view that his third opinion holds sway over all others". Maurreen 14:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Well I wasn't intending to disect the issue, just come up with some wording for the page to clarify that you're offering an opinion, not a decision. Anyway from the two diff above:
  • [4]: "WP:3O brought not just a third but a fourth opinion, from people completely uninitiated into the ongoing dispute, and the consensus was that the link was not spam, did not violate WP:EL, and should stay. Those guidelines and procedures were put there for a reason, and that reason was not for you to ignore it. That's the end of it! Do not keep reverting it." — this was after other editors (previously uninvolved) had also offered their opinion (and I wasn't the one reverting the link, although that comment was directed at me)
  • [5]: (from edit summary) "Readd disputed link per WP:3O consensus, see talk" — there's no consensus in the discussion, a 3O opinion doesn't overrule other peoples opinions.
So, back to the original point - do you think we need to clarify anything on the project page, or is this a one-off misunderstanding? Thanks/wangi 14:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The short answer is that I just now changed the second sentence. See what you think. Maurreen 15:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC) That is, I changed the intro. Maurreen

[edit] Is there a place to get a second opinion?

I have a question, and want a second opinion on it. 3O doesn't seem appropriate as it isn't a "dispute between exactly 2 editors" (I appear to be the only editor involved), and RFC seems to be a more formal dispute resolving step. Anyone have suggestions? ONUnicorn 15:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the Village Pump or talk pages of related articles, or finding an interested person from one of the various lists and categories of Wikipedians. Maurreen 15:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd normally post a question to Wikipedia:Help desk or one of the Wikipedia:Village pumps... Or the article talk page. Thanks/wangi 15:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The article talk pages involved don't seem to get much traffic (I've already posted there)... so maybe I'll try Village pump. Thanks. ONUnicorn 15:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for feedback, or, in case of "high-quality articles that have already undergone extensive work", Wikipedia:Peer review. — Itai (talk) 10:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Peer review is good, I used it once and I got some very good advice. Remember to be specific when you ask for advice there to maximize the benifit. HighInBC 04:40, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

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