Talk:Theories on the origin of Croats

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[edit] Most Widely Accepted !???

It was confirmed in a symposium held by the Iranian cultural counsellorship in the capital city of Zagreb in 1998, that croats are of Iranian origin and last time I checked Croatian history books, it said that Croats come from an Iranian origin! So how do you conclude that the Slavic theory is the most widely accepted theory!!!!????

" ZAGREB, Croatia, Oct 15, 2000 (Hina)

"Finally, it has scientifically been proven that Croatians are of Persian origin," exclaimed triumphantly representatives of a scholarly society for the study of Croatians' descent (ZDPPH) last week.

Nedjeljko Kujundzic, the head of the society established in 1992 for just the purpose to help endeavours aimed at "the promotion of the truth about the Iranian descent of Croats," held a news conference last Wednesday when he presented 'final' evidence on this matter. Last Friday, a book entitled "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by writer and historian Mate Marcinko was presented as well.

Two society members, Ivan Biondic and Andrija-Zeljko Lovric, toured Iran last July. There they saw a plaque called "Tablet from Tanais", and heard, as they say, a dialect which resembles the Kaikavian dialect of the Croatian language.

Biondic explained that in the end of the 19th century two stone tablets were discovered with Greek inscriptions of ancient Croat names from the Ancient port of Tanais at the Sea of Azov. The tablets, which date back to 2nd and 3rd century B.C., have early Croatian ethnonyms - Horoathos, Horauathos and Horvathon.

The society's president Kujundzic said that the 'tamburitza' - a Croatian folk instrument - was also preserved in its original form by certain Iranian tribes.

According to him, Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin.

Biondic added that this theory had also been confirmed by American and Canadian Slavists.

In this context he resolutely and completely rejected a thesis of some historians and the belief that the Croats are of Slavic descent" " —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pametna antenna (talk • contribs) 06:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

This press release is written in a tone common to many pseudo-science tracts. With phrases like "Finally, it has scientifically been proven that Croatians are of Persian origin"... I think scientists usually don't make such bold pronouncements without qualifying them.

Could there have been some migration from Persia to the area around present-day Croatia? Sure. Are all Croats of "Iranian" descent? That might be stretching things. And the assertion that these fellows heard something resembling Kaikavian in Iran... a minor, modern dialect of Croatian existing in isolation for over 2000 years is quite far-fetched from a historical-linguistic standpoint. The dialect fits squarely within the Croatian language and actually shares similarities with Slovenian.

All the factoids here seem calculated to amaze or convince people who only know a little bit about history, linguistics, etc. These things are being presented as facts when in fact they are not universally or even widely accepted. Regarding edits to the main article, please have a look at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view. There's nothing wrong with covering this material as long as it's presented properly. I know that many well-meaning people who believe in such theories will go ahead and reference pseudo-scientific works to defend it. I'm not necessarily against the theory, I'm just against using questionable scholarship to defend it. Twalls 03:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The only genetic connection is of the Y-DNA haplogroup I that can be found in some isolated regions of northern Iran - in Kurdish populations. However, those residuals are perfectly consistent with the theory that the Balkans served as an ice age refuge during the last glacial maximum. As Sforza and others have shown using PCA and genetic dating, Europe was the origin for the mutation that defines HG I (M170). The small isolated spots of it that can be found elsewhere are the consequence of migrations from Europe. There is no scientific controversy about that - the currently available data and the current theories are perfectly consistent. The pseudoscientific attempts to place modern day Croats as the descendants of Persians based on genetic evidence is silly at best.

As for the linguistic evidence and the idea of cultural origins rather than genetic origins I can't say anything. I have however not seen any credible scientific articles on the subjects that are more specific than being wild speculations. Unlike in the case of the genetic data, on the linguistic front there (as far as I can tell) doesn't seem to be any definitive evidence against a theory of cultural fusion. But that's a far cry from claiming that it is that way. --Denoir 02:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linguistic "Evidence"

'Furthermore the national name "Croat" is of Iranian origin. According to the Russian Vselod Miller the name "Croat" comes from the Iranian word Hor-va (t)u meaning: the sun’s bed or path. M. Vasmer derives the Croatian name from Hu-urvata meaning, "friend"'

Shouldn't it be one or the other? And what does the Greek "Horoathos" refer to?

'And the terms used to designate the high officials among the Croats, "kral, ban, zupan", are of Iranian origin. ... Even the Croatian words used to designate religious concepts are Iranian: God, religion, sacrifice, paradise, Easter; to cry out (for), to implore, to predict, and so on.'

Where are the comparative lists, and can these be easily verified? In my understanding, the standard Croat words for these concepts are of Slavic origin (God = Bog, etc.). Are there words for these concepts, current or archaic, that are particular to Croatian and not other Slavic tongues? Slavic and Indo-Iranian are separate branches of Indo-European, so if other Slavic languages (especially the South Slavic ones) exhibit cognates similar to the purported Croatian-Iranian parallels, it would be because of the common IE linguistic heritage and not a particularly unique Croatian-Iranian connection.

Twalls 19:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)