Talk:The Velvet Underground

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Contents

[edit] Lost Album Recovered

It's a bit "breaking news", so I'd wait until it's settled out, but the missing original Warhol album has been recovered (or possibly somebody is running a very nasty scam). See [the ebay auction] for details.


[edit] Image

anyone have an image of the peeled version of the album cover for the velvet underground and nico? that would be a good addition to this page.

[edit] Origin of The Velvet Underground

was underground british?

Well, Reed was American and Nico was German, but, yeah, Cale was from Wales. I don't know about Morrison and Tucker. If you mean the group as a whole, no, they were founded in the U.S., N.Y.C.,. And if you think they're name is british, it's because they got it from a book -- Djinn112 05:48, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)
The V.U. was founded in New York City. Reed was born in Brooklyn but raised in Levittown, Long Island. Tucker (born in New Jersey) and Morrison hailed from Levittown as well. Cale came from Garnant, Wales. Doug Yule is a Bostonite. Nico (not formally a VU member, but hey) came from Köln (Cologne), Germany. — Curt Woyte 07:25, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, VU was founded in NYC, but I always thought "underground" referred to a clandestine group like, for example, the Weather Underground. --Slandermonger 00:22, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
More like The Rasberry Reich. Hyacinth 05:40, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I believe 'Velvet Underground' was the title of a novelette passed from Tony Conrad, a pre-VU collaborator and notable composer in his own, to Lou Reed. The matter of the novelette was apparently S&M. I have had a difficult time corroborating this info. However, I hope this will help gather enough force to dispel any doubts as to the origin or extended meaning of the band's name. ---SoundEx
You're right. The book that was passed on (most sources agree by Tony Conrad) was indeed called The Velvet Underground and was written by Michael Leigh. It is a cheap sensationalist affair written under the guise of serious investigative journalism but mainly focuses on depicting scenes of debauchery, among which swinging, homosexual activities and sado-masochism. It proved popular/scandalous enough for a sequel to come out in 1967, Return to the Velvet Underground. — Curt Woyte 07:25, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

- I'm bitter about how Doug Yule is included on the "other members" section of the VU link banner thingy. He played on Loaded; the third, eponymous album; and VU; and sings lead vocals on half their best known songs.

NPOV notice added for anti-Yule and anti-Nico sentiments. Its dishonest to list Yule as an "other member" and Cale as a "main" member when Yule played on more records and sings on half their best-known songs. Also, Nico as "related topic" is just plain wacky. --B. Phillips 20:45, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I can see how this point was raised when reading this article. This discussion really belongs to the template, not the article, but that would greatly reduce its visibility. Anyway, I am the person who wrote the template and so I will try to answer the points raised.
The template was in no way intended to diminish contributions by either Yule or Nico. As for their respective classifications:
Nico is listed as a related topic because, by admission of nearly everyone concerned, she never really was part of the band. She collaborated with The Velvet Underground on four songs on The Velvet Underground and Nico, which was named so precisely because it's a collaboration. If Nico had been an integral part of the band, the album's name wouldn't have been ...and Nico any more than it would be ...and Lou Reed (or any other band member's name). The Velvet Underground and Nico, the only album on which The Velvet Underground and Nico have collaborated, is the starting point of the discography of both the Nico and The Velvet Underground entities. The person who wrote the Nico albums template seems to have thought so too, as s/he included The Velvet Underground and Nico in Nico's albums as well. I felt Nico ought to be mentioned in the Velvet Underground template but as there was no real other place I could include her, she went under 'miscellaneous' (i.e. "related topics"), just like other people closely related to but not actually in the band, such as Warhol and Billy Yule, did.
As for Yule, his being classified as "other member" does in no way reflect how I perceive his contributions (personally, I think they're great, especially "Candy Says", "Oh! Sweet Nuthin'" and the lead guitar work on "One of These Days"). I think the consensus is that the Reed-Cale-Morrison-Tucker lineup is the "classic one" (but I'd like to hear from others). That leaves all other people, be they "pre-classic" (such as MacLise) or "post-classic" (Yule, Alexander, Powers), "other members". There no other way in my opinion, except perhaps specifying all line-ups, and that would be unwieldy, or going with a band's original line-up regardless of how short-lived that might have been. In The Velvet Underground's case, that would result in Reed-Cale-Morrison-MacLise and all people coming after being "other members".
It's just about what most people consider to be the "regular" line-up, what automatically comes to mind when thinking of a band. Consider this: the core line-up of The Byrds was Clarke-McGuinn-Crosby-Hillman-Clark. Regardless of his contributions, Gram Parsons is a later addition to the line-up, and so he goes in another place in the template. The other way around: Pete Best was the original Beatles drummer but it's Ringo Starr in the core lineup. It has nothing to do with relative merits or being anti-somebody. Not in my opinion, anyway.
I'd love to hear how you think about all this. And I'd like to scrap "dishonest" and "wacky" from your post — it's POV. :-P
Curt Woyte 15:20, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
I also think that most people think that the "classic" lineup is Cale-Morrison-Reed-Tucker (think about the 1993 european tour too), but I think that Doug Yule could be listed as well. Perhaps it's a bit unfair to have him listed in "other members", but I don't think it has nothing to do with any anti-Yule sentiment, it's just how most people (I think) see him.--SugarKane 17:56, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I was thinking too lineup-oriented and felt I had to choose one of the two "main" lineups. I could of course list all five "most prominent" members alphabetically irrespective of lineup and so bypass any "credit"-related issues. In fact, I'll do that straight away. Curt Woyte 07:14, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
I think that we could get rid of this whole thing by removing the headlines "Core members" and "Other members" from Personnel and just put everyone in a single grouping. Given that Nico wasn't in the band, and was just brought in to sing a couple of Lou Reed's songs, maybe she should be omitted as a member but instead get a note in the same Personnel section saying that she accompanied them for _VU and Nico_. Mkilly 04:37, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I think that's another discussion that belongs to the article section "Personnel", not the template used at the bottom of the page, which is the subject of this discussion. But you're largely right as far as I'm concerned. We could simply delete the subdivisions and list everybody alphabetically, optionally mentioning the years they served in the Velvet Underground. I'm not sure about Nico though. If we mention her, we should also mention Billy Yule, Tommy Castanaro and all others who played with the band but weren't actually in it. Curt Woyte 10:54, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
In response to both the original NPOV discussion and Mkilly's remarks, I've restructured the Personnel section, giving pre-eminence to no-one but listing all members alphabetically and adding a lineups section to indicate who played with whom at what time. As for the people who played with the band but weren't in it (Nico, Billy etc.), I still think they do not belong in the personnel section but are okay as they are, being mentioned in the main text at the appropriate place. This is common procedure with other bands' articles.
I've done this restructuring pro-actively, believing in bold, constructive action and noticing the relative slowness of this NPOV discussion. I feel any perceived POV'ishness of this article has now been dealt with and so I've also removed the NPOV template. Let me know how you think.
Curt Woyte 07:18, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been a little slow in getting back to this.... but I agree completely with your final editions, conceding that Nico is best left in the related topic category. I suppose I was just struck by the dehumanized aspect of "related topic". I also think it's a good policy to eschew the core "line-ups" in favor of "members" whether they all played together at ones or not in general. --B. Phillips 20:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I think the ...and Nico was more of sales pitch. LIke Tom Petty and the heartbreakers were originally The heartbreakers but Tom was recognizable so the label put Tom in front. They also did this with Bob seger and the silver bullet band.


i guess maybe i should read through this whole discussion first, but doug yule may have been a major member on paper, but songs from his tenure really aren't what the VU is remembered for. i figure that only the original lineup should be included. and nico was by no means a member or really even a major contributor of the group. she sang four of the songs on their first album. that's it.

[edit] Velvet underground name?

Why are they called velvet undergroung and what does it mean?

back in the early days, angus maclise (original drummer) was wandering around new york and found a cheap porn book called 'the velvet underground' lying in a gutter. perhaps seeing the connection between their music and a dirty little rag someone had thrown in the street, or perhaps because it was just a good name, they took it up themselves. someone should maybe find a way to include that in the article. it's a well established story.

Joeyramoney 03:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

"The Velvet Underground was a book about sadomasochism by Michael Leigh that Reed found when he moved into his New York City apartment (left by previous tenant Tony Conrad). Reed and Morrison have reported the group liked the name, considering it evocative of "underground cinema," and fitting, due to Reed's already having written "Venus In Furs", inspired by Leopold von Sacher-Masoch's book of the same name, also dealing with sadomasochism. The band immediately and unanimously adopted the book's title for its new name."

This is how they got their title, and it is already in the article. BauerPower 21:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

I have removed this article from Wikipedia:Good_articles/Nominations because:

  1. The article has problems with POV and poor writing ("Longtime fans began mocking the new lineup as the "Velveteen Underground", perhaps unfairly"; "the album's perceived Middle of the road content is sometimes dismissed out of hand by Velvets fans"; "pounding on piano like a demented Jerry Lee Lewis."
  2. Lots of uncited statements ("Young's use of extended drones would be a profound influence on the early Velvet's sound", "'Angus was in it for art', Morrison reported", "The band having asked her to 'do something unusual'", among many others).
  3. The gallery of album covers probably does not fall under fair-use. A smaller number of images would be justifiable, but can we really claim a rationale for all the live records and compilations? Andrew Levine 00:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Welsh-American?"

Come now. Cale was Welsh. Nico was German. Didn't Angus become Nepalese later in life? If it can't say "Welsh-Germanic-Nepalese-Brooklyn-American," it shouldn't say "Welsh-American." --electric counterpoint 06:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Punk?...

I just listened to the White Light/White Heat album and the Sister Ray song, and I couldn't discern any resemblence at all to punk rock. Now to be clear, I'm not any sort of punk rock purist, and I enjoy a lot of the music from the late 60s/early 70s. And in a lot of that music, I can clearly hear how it influenced punk rock. I can clearly hear it in the Who, Janis Joplin, Hendrix, but not in the Velvet Underground. Are they really considred by most music historians to be proto-punk? As far as I can tell, they seem to have more in common (musically) with abstract jam-bands like Phish than with any sort of punk rock I've ever heard.

Well, with that particular album, it was things such as the experimentation and lyrics that laid the groundwork. However, if you want to really hear the influence, get the postumously-released MGM sessions. Rsm99833 16:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Never heard of that album...is that its name - "MGM sessions"? (Didn't see it in the "Discography" section.) Is there an article about it on Wikipedia?
If memory serves, the name of the album was 'VU'.Rsm99833 17:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Honestly, I think the mentality was more what influenced punk. God, look at the contrast between the Beatles' lyrics and the Velvet Underground's! It was even more counterculture than the counterculture, if that makes any sense to you. I think that this whole thing about saying it's not is POV in itself. Even if I am biased, I can still say that the first two albums are considered by many to be proto-punk. Hey, they inspired the Stooges, and you're not jabbing at them, either. But that's something else entirely....

[edit] Feedback

"Also setting them apart from their contemporaries was their use of feedback and amplifier noise in a musical context, exemplified by the seventeen-minute track 'Sister Ray' from their second album."

This sentence is puzzling, since many of their contemporaries did in fact also use feedback in a musical context: The Beatles, The Who, Jimi Hendrix, Jefferson Airplane, the Grateful Dead, to name a few. Any objections to removing the above sentence?

While others used feedback as part of the song, VU used in a way that was quite different than their contemporaries. The feedback was not meant to be exploritory, phychedellic, or anything nice. In many cases, it was used to punish the audience, as outlined in the book 'From The Velvets to The Voidoids'. I would recomend reformatting, rather than deletion.Rsm99833 16:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure how feedback can possibly be "anything nice"... There was certainly nothing nice about the chaotic feedback experiments of The Who or the Dead, for example. I'm not sure how one would go about rephrasing that sentence - it seems a bit odd to write that "setting them apart from their contemporaries was their use of feedback to punish the audience." In what other ways did their use of feedback set them apart from their contemporaries?
as far as the "anything nice", I would suggest listening to Jimi Hendrix or even CCR's Suzy Q as examples of nice stuff. For VU, if an audience got a bit too "twirly" the looping feedback would start. Again, this is all documented in the book I previously mentioned. It's highly recomended, and you should get a copy. Rsm99833 17:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but I'm not sure that using feedback to punish the audience is significant enough to set them apart from their contemporaries. If their usage of feedback was so significant as to warrant this sentence, then why isn't the band mentioned at all in the article on "feedback"? The sentence needs to be rephrased or deleted.
Yes, but did anyone else rig a Vox organ to a guitar amp?

[edit] If you close the door..?

What album was this song (sung by Nico?) on? I always thought it was Velvet Underground & Nico, although a website suggests it was on an album by VU called The After Hours. --Mal 20:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The song is called "After Hours". It's the final track on the third (self-titled) album, and is sung by Maureen Tucker. It's mentioned in the article.

[edit] Personnel Timeline

In my personal opinion, the colour-coded personnel timeline in the Velevt Underground article is misleading, or at best, virtually useless, and should be removed.

Zenexp

[edit] Exploding Plastic Inevitable

I started an article on this, to replace an earlier one that was deleted for copyvio. Please feel free to contribute. ~ trialsanderrors 16:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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