Talk:The Trial

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Contents 1 "The Whipping" 2 "Frau Grubach's Insinuations" 3 "where he got his story" 4 schizophrenic hallucinations? 5 yes. 6 Recent Changes 7 Different translations 8 Comparisons with other works 9 The End 10 disambiguating 11 K.'s Uncle 12 Evaluation

[edit] "The Whipping"

I'm not going to edit the article directly as I don't have time to look for citations, etc. But I had a much different interpretation of the chapter where the flogging happens. While it may have been staged to show K. the court's power, I think that the setup is less important than the question it asks: who is more responsible, the corrupt individual or the corrupt organization? K. tries to buy their freedom, and the flogger assumes it is a trap. Most importantly, the policemen ask K., "we’re only being punished because you made a complaint against us. Nothing would have happened to us otherwise, not even if they’d found out what we’d done. Can you call that justice?" (Note: the translation I've quoted is an ebook from the University of Adelaide that's available under a CC license) - John C

[edit] "Frau Grubach's Insinuations"

In the summary for the first chapter, it states that Frau Grubach mistakenly offends K. by saying that perhaps the arrest has to do with a theorized illicit romance between Fräulein Bürstner and K. However, the text doesn't state this at all in any translation I know. Rather, Grubach simply gossips to K. about Fräulein Bürstner's dating habits. Should this be changed?

I thought the same, but it may be that she alludes to a relationship between the two by means unobvious to the reader. I think it should be kept in, but the language ought to be changed to indicate that it's speculation. Unless, of course, someone has read another version - perhaps in the original German - which is clearer on the issue, and can definitively say otherwise. - Shoejar 18:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I have the german version in front of me right now. There is no mention or implication whatsoever that K. and Frl. Bürstner have any relationship. Frau Grubach merely states that she has seen Frl. Bürstner with two different men in short span of time, probably implying that Frl. Bürstner prostitutes herself but not with K.He then defends her vehemtly (sp?), altough we have been told that he hardly even knows her. That's all. 130.133.134.35 12:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC) Cheers, Tobias

[edit] "where he got his story"

Folks. We got a problem here. A single scholar somewhere says that Kafka simply stole the shape, structure, and content-skeleton from Dostoyevsky, and this is worthy of wikipedic inclusion? This is absurd, and there definitely isn't enough information given in the wiki to justify including this pap. It's misguided and obsessive to ask "Where did the author get his stories?" You can search far and wide, for any author, and eventually find some similarities elsewhere, and make the delusional/pathological argument that the author simply didn't innovate anything but merely stole it from somewhere else. For example, WHERE DID CRIME AND PUNISHMENT COME FROM? Is some scholar going to make a mission of finding where THAT was stolen from? Because I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find something vaguely resembles it, and you can start putting forth the incredible argument that Dostoyevsky simply stole it from that source. (Addiotionally Dostoy and Kafka both lived as authors within modern western civilization, it's not surprising that some of their characters or even scenarios have vague abstract resemblences. The same can be said for practically any two pieces of literature written within about 50 years of each other.) Franz Kafka was an artist of the highest level of achievement, and it's insulting and outrageous to argue that The Trial's content comes from Crime and Punishment. Especially considering there's not even the SLIGHTEST HINT of this in any of Kafka's records, or from any of the insights that Max Brod has been able to offer, owing to his friendship and confidence with Kafka.

I have to admit I too found the claims far-fetched and a little hard to verify. One problem is that at the moment, almost a third of the article is dedicated to a single persons research. I suggest trimming the content down, and making more NPOV to indicate that this view doesn't yet have wide acceptance.--Brendanfox 11:00, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] schizophrenic hallucinations?

When I read the trial I was always wondering about the degree to which the events are paranoid delusions. It reminded me of the schizophrenic state portrayed in 'A beautiful mind'. Any argumments for or against this interpretation? User:Ike9898

---

[edit] yes.

I think your comment withstands the fact you have too much time on your hands.

[edit] Recent Changes

I've just made a few changes to the article as a whole, if there's any issues please just post here, and we can discuss them. Thanks. --Brendanfox 06:47, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Different translations

I am currently reading The Trial and find that the basic information in the synopsis is correct, but that many of the details are incorrect. Therefore, I wonder if the differences are a result of translational differences or other differences between editions resulting from the use of the original manuscripts. I certainly would not want to make changes that are completely accurate in other editions of the book. Da 'Sco Mon 09:09, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What language are you reading it in? Does you edition give the name of the translator?

ike9898 14:42, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comparisons with other works

I have edited this, as it was incorrect - Nineteen Eighty-Four does not end with the protagonist's death. Rather, its final words express the utter submission of Winston Smith's will to that of the Party bureaucracy and Big Brother. His forthcoming execution is only implied. --Scrilly 11:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm affraid not. The last words of Wiston are uttered as he feels the bullet entering his head from behind.

He was walking down the white-tiled corridor, with the feeling of walking in sunlight, and an armed guard at his back. The longhoped-for bullet was entering his brain.

See http://www.liferesearchuniversal.com/1984-24.html#twentyfour. Regards, --Abu Badali 13:12, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you've got that quite right. Winston is imagining his execution. See e.g. http://groups.google.nl/group/alt.books.george-orwell/msg/5ffab2cc70405c69 for a good explanation. 80.126.17.187 20:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

It sounded a little bit like speculation to me. But not a completely invalid point. Anyway, that's still someone's interpretation. --Abu Badali 18:43, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Can comparisons of The Trial to Oldboy and The Count of Monte Cristo be said to be really relevant based solely on the fact that someone is somehow imprisoned in all of the works? //Eric Ghassaban, 26 April 2006

I don't see how this is at all relevant either. I'm removing the section entirely, since all it has at the moment is this (very weak) comparison. neckro 10:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The End

We recently read The Trial in one of my classes and the professor told us that there is some controversy over the ordering of the chapters. Specifically, many scholars do not believe that the last chapter was intended to be the last chapter; instead, it was meant to go in the middle somewhere as a dream. They argue (among other things) that one of the points of the trial is that it goes on forever, and such a solid conclusion is not in line with what Kafka was trying to convey. I'm not familiar enough with the scholarship on this text to add this information myself. However, it would be nice if someone else who knew what I'm talking about went in and added it at some point. -- Zawersh 16:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You are right about the controversy, and to be honest no-one can really be sure of anything when it comes to Kafka's unfinished works, but if one is to believe what is said in the foreword of the edition of The Trial I have (a recent Swedish one, published by Bakhåll) the order of the chapters in that particular edition are based on the Kafka's own sorting of the original documents, and thus it is likely that this was Kafka's intention.

In addition, although based on my own opinion, "The End" has the feel of an ending chapter and certainly the qualities of one – even if not meant as one I consider it to be the best ending in the history of literature – and so I believe it to be perfectly viable that this is what Kafka intended. Although, as said, we can never know. //Eric Ghassaban, 26 April 2006

Given the points you acknowledge above, I think it's important to at least make reference to that controversy and uncertainty in the article. (Especially since so much space is given to the Crime and Punishment school of thought.) We can't know what he intended. The ordering that the papers happened to be in at his death isn't necessarily meaningful--who's to say he put them in that order for the reasons we assume, or for any reason at all? Regardless of his intention, literature is as much about interpretation as intent. Putting "The End" in the middle gives rise to very different interpretations than putting it at the end, and since we have no idea which is "correct", providing the foundation of both schools of thought seems the best approach for a balanced, encyclopedic article. (Too bad I'm not enough a student of literature, or Kafka, to add something about it myself. Oh well.) -- Zawersh 08:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] disambiguating

theres a song and an episode of dilbert also called The Trial. im not quite sure about the procedure for this, but would there be a disambiguation page or just references at the top of these pages? Tobias087 07:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Good call, I went ahead and put in the disambiguation. -- Zawersh 15:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] K.'s Uncle

In the spoilers it says K.'s Uncle is a friend of the Clerk of the Court, however does he not just meet him when they go and visit the lawyer?

[edit] Evaluation

I cannot see how a scene in Welles' film adaption (it should be noted, however it is not important for my point, that his adaption is controversial and neither very reverent or true to the original novel. For example, Anthony Perkins is executed by the means of explosives. Even if film adaptions had been a good way to analyse books, Welles' adaption is, in other words, not a very reliable source) is relevant for the evaluation and analysis of Kafka's novel.

I therefore suggest that the passage on Christianity added the 21st of June is either rewritten, with references to Welles' film excluded, or completely removed. If Kafka even had any religious motives with his works, then Max Brod's Jewish interpretation (that of the court in the Trial being the 'divine court') is for more or less natural reasons a more probable theory. What is said about guilt and judgement however, is presumably a correct approach. Staretsen 09:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Over three days have passed, removing section until adequate response from author. —Staretsen 13:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The film The Trial and the book to me and others is a depth psychological prologemena to Christian Faith and understanding of the law on an existential basis. I am not the Kafka scholar that you are but I will work on a revision to my initial entry.

(Icybluedge)