Talk:The Red and the Black

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I think the author of this article is far more hostile toward Julien Sorrel's character than Stendhal himself was... Julien is a character who sabotages himself in many ways, not the least of which is by trying to be too clever, but his problem isn't so much that he's not *really* an intellectual (compared to who?) as that he's really young. He's smart enough to be dangerous, and it takes him some time to acquire some wisdom... Stendhal himself (as I remember it) refers to him as a "healthy plant", moving toward humanity as he grows older, rather than taking refuge in cyncism as many do.

Julien's central trouble is that he's ambitious for some form of achievement, but the world he lives in has left him no way of evaluating achievement. -- Doom 23:47, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

• Your comment is probably directed at me, since I wrote the bulk of what is currently in the Plot section. I certainly disagree that I am "hostile" towards Sorel; he's a fictional character, after all, and if you meant that my writeup was "hostile," I still disagree. My goal was to reflect the character's portrayal in the book as precisely as possible. I think it's clear that Stendhal used his novels as social criticism, and the side of Sorel that sought wealth and status through hypocrisy was designed in that vein. Your comments above omit that facet of the character - it's not the ambition that is troublesome, but Sorel's willingness to lie or deceive to achieve his goals. | Keithlaw 04:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

• • I have to agree with Doom on this one. While the question of whether the characterization is 'hostile' is plainly debatable, descibing him as a simpleton or as a piece in chess game played by others, amounts to a gross oversimplification of a much more complicated story. While he is certainly part of a game, everthing in the novel suggests that every other character is as well. Furthermore the uncertain future of french society at the time of the novel - which does contain several anachronistic liberties of Stendhal's - as well as the actual events portrayed in the novel more than anything else suggest that no one really controls the game. (this is another diversion from the literary standards of the time, a step away from the church and divinity in guiding human affairs...)

The sentence 'Stendhal uses his addled hero to satirize French society of the time, particularly the hypocrisy and materialism of its aristocracy and the Catholic Church, and to foretell a radical change in French society that will remove both of those forces from their positions of power.' Is also inaccurate. The first part here is again, hyperbole and oversimiplification, the second part about The 'hypocrisy of the aristocracy' is a remnant of the 1789 revolution; this event stifled, really killed the earlier liberalism and dynamic thought which characterized the french salons of Voltaire's time. Revolutionary thought - any thought became dangerous...

I would also suggest that characterization of Julien as a 'pseudo-intellectual' is probably not a very precise fit with the rest of the events portrayed in the novel. He is by all accounts exceptionally intelligent. It is his passion and his arrogance and his youthful pride which are his undoing.

"M. de la Mole relents when he receives a letter from Mme. de Rênal warning him that Julien is nothing but a cad and a social climber who preys on vulnerable women." This sentence neglects the facct that Mme. de Renal has written this letter under duress, at the direction of another. It also neglects the fact that she is madly in love with him.

I think this page needs to be rewritten.

joe neglecthttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Red_and_the_Black&action=edits the fact that this work actually appeared in 1830, the same year as the July revolution. It would probably be worthwhile to read Erich Auerbach's treatment of this novel in Mimesis.

Do whatever you like with the article; I don't own it. I can't follow some of your arguments; I will say that I think you're confusing the terms "intelligent" and "intellectual." Julien is intelligent, at least in some ways, but he is decidedly not an intellectual, as his intellectual pursuits are largely followed in search of material or status goals, rather than for enlightenment. That is what I meant by "pseudo-intellectual" - his intellectualism is a pretense. If you think other facts are "neglected," then fill them in. | Klaw ¡digame! 03:22, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I've made some amendments to the opening which temper the claims about Julien's character and hopefully hit some kind of fair balance, what Louis-Philippe would have called a 'juste milieu'... Ajcounter 16:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To the happy few

This phrase appears at the end of the text in the edition of The Red and the Black that I have: Penguin's 2002 translation, ISBN 0140447644. Apparently Stendhal used this epigram to close several of his novels and stories. | Klaw Talk 00:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Isn't this a reference to Henry V, 4.iii: "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;" --Shantavira 10:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Can you cite a source making that connection? | Klaw ¡digame! 15:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it's actually a ref to Byron's Don Juan, which Stendhal was obsessed with, and which provides so many of the chapter epigraphs. Ajcounter 15:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's Don Juan Canto 11:

Then dress, then dinner, then awakes the world!

Then glare the lamps, then whirl the wheels, then roar

Through street and square fast flashing chariots hurl'd

Like harness'd meteors; then along the floor

Chalk mimics painting; then festoons are twirl'd;

Then roll the brazen thunders of the door,

Which opens to the thousand happy few

An earthly paradise of 'Or Molu.'

Ajcounter 15:59, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jacobine vs Jesuit tensions

I remember the book using the ideological and ecclesiastical allegiances of the protagonist's clerical mentors and superiors as a dimension of the book. I miss this being mentioned in the article. meco 11:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added some stuff to the plot summary about the historical context; Republicanism vs. Legitimism, Jansenism vs. Jesuitism etc. Ajcounter 16:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New edits

I've just tidied up the plot summary, plus added something on the episode of the mission to England. I've also deleted a bit from 'Literary significance': the sentence which asserted that Stendhal was a 'writer's writer' who is more familiar to writers than readers seems plain wrong as far as I'm concerned, and would in any case belong at Stendhal, not on the R&N page, surely. Hope no one objects. Ajcounter 16:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I've also added a section on 'themes', which I think represents a sufficiently widely held critical opinion that it's not OR. There're clearly more themes, though - feel free to add! Ajcounter 17:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Put in an info box and an image, though I'm not sure how long the image will last (since I couldn't really understand all the rules for fair use). Ajcounter 11:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)