Talk:The Number 1 Homestead on the Lenina Street, Vynohrad

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[edit] Inclusivity discussion

Serhiy, The Number 1 Homestead on the Lenina Street, Vynohrad can be an encyclopedic article but it needs a good deal of encyclopedising. "...one of the most beautiful and memorable places in the world for a large number of people living now and in the past" needs to go. And the article should somehow establish a notability of the place. Being a home of a Wikipedian isn't enough :). Please take a look at Category:Wikipedia notability criteria. If the article fails to establish the notability of the place, nothing prevents you from keeping it in your userspace as, say, user:Serhiy/History of my home or something like that. It is absolutely certain that any village is notable for an article. Perhaps many streets could have articles too. But not each house in the wide world. Please take my criticism lightly. See you around. --Irpen 03:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, as a long-term policy, I am sure every house and more has the right to be in the encyclopedia by the mere token of its existence. As you know, disc space becomes cheaper and cheaper every second. But in the short run, to avoid another round of disputes, polls, discussions etc when we are not done with the first ones yet, let me just tell you this for the time being: I claim notability of this place based on the fact that the house that stood there (the one that was burned down in the war) temporarily served as the Headquarter of the Soviet armed forces that defended the village. I am sure I will also be able to come up with dozens of other notability claims, but hope this one will suffice for now. Also please note that I won't be able to expand the article as far as to mention/describe this properly, because this was actually my last substantial addition to WP for some time (will be busy with other staff). Of course, I will keep track of my smaller contributions like the one that we started discussing yesterday. Serhiy 03:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure, being a headquarters is enough. Just lets make sure the article claims this prominently. I don't like to delete anything at all. Good luck with its development. And just to let you know, disk space is not a problem in WP. It's just that everything has to be encyclopedic. The headquartes will suffice should someone post it for AfD. I had no intention to do it anyway. I just thought you don't mind my opinion on the issue. -Irpen 03:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, should anyone post it as AfD, I will be happy to go through the policy change on this if necessary... I do honestly believe that every single house in the world deserves to be in an online encyclopedia like this one, if there is anyone in the world who cares to take trouble to put it there. Notability is a vague concept, and any line drawn is completely arbitrary. A house of a well-known writer is clearly notable enough to be included. What about a less-well-known writer? What about a non-writer, but a well-known doctor? What if that doctor was well-known but only amongst his patients? Is the number of people who knew this particular person coming down from, say, 100 to 99 makes that person suddenly un-notable for WP? Nonsense. This is not to offend you in any way, not at all, it's just that I believe such approach is nonsense generally when dealing with an online encyclopedia. In a paper-based one there is a clear reason for this, space-cost constraints. Here the only legitimate constraint can be disc space and DB maintenance cost, but both are negligible and will be becoming ever more so. I myself take care of the page, it does not stand in anyone else's way, and so on. That's my view on this, which I am happy to defend at WP at large if necessary - and I simply cannot see possible reasonable arguments against such approach. Serhiy 04:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I have no objections to this article and I would never post anything non-harmless for AfD (vanity articles are harmless but this isn't one). Just be prepared if someone posts it for AfD. I, generally, agree with the inclsusionists' principle and in no way intend to give you a fight over this. Moreover, I am ready to help in preserving such articles which are so dear to you should they appear at AfD. It would be much easier if the headquarters info is displayed prominently and "...one of the most beautiful and memorable places in the world" goes out (which is also a POV). But you try to keep it up. I might just watch. That reminds me to write an article about the house of my childhood. It is also notable and there is a story about it in one of the Kiev books. I hope I will get to that at some point but not any time soon. Cheers, --Irpen 04:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, I think the way I now qualified the intro statement makes in indisputable from the point of view of formal correctness - and thanks for the previous comments, they are appreciated. Also, as a general argument in favor of the inclusivity principle: history of any place is made up of history of its component parts, nothing else. We now study as great relics some remnants of household life of some merchant or shoemaker or whoever who lived 1000 years ago - just because we don't happen to have anyone else's relics from that period. But for the person at the time, it might have been his night pot, not more and not less. So if we put someone unknown's night pots in museums, why is information about a place where someone other unknown actually grew up and spent important part of his life less important? This is not an argument with you anymore, this is rather an additional argument for you in case you ever have to defend the inclusivity principle yourself. Serhiy 04:29, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Fine with me but I would have added a headquartes fact somewhere close to top if I were you. Also, please feel free to copy this discussion to the article's talk. Might be helpful for others who gets to an article. --Irpen 04:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Will do, but in its own time. The reason why I am not as keen on writing a section on the headquarters issue is simply because that fact is very much down the priorities list of any living person in the world who actually knows and remembers that house :) Plus it does require additional researching on my part (all I know is the fact that it was there, from my grandmother - by no other details). Serhiy 04:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)