Talk:The Minuteman Project Inc.

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WikiProject Mexican-Americans The Minuteman Project Inc. falls under the scope of WikiProject Mexican-Americans, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Mexican-Americans on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to Mexican-Americans as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Mexican-Americans. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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  • /Archive 1: April 2005 – June 2006

Accusations that this article is biased, or as the header states: "This article may not conform to the neutral point of view policy. A Wikipedian has nominated this article to be checked for its neutrality. Discussion of this nomination can be found on the talk page." is cleary politically motivated by any individuals making this charge. The article clearly points out BOTH PERSPECTIVES!

I agree. I've seen many articles with out-of-date neutrality notices. How does one go about getting them removed? Lurker 09:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep. I vote for the notice to be removed
When commenting on talk pages, please log in and sign your comments Lurker 11:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, no-one has requested that the notice stays so, if I understand the procedure correctly, there's no reason to keep the notice. Lurker 11:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Debate on the nature of minutemen

I was wondering, in the transcript of the Democracy Now! debate (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/11/1430231) the political chairman of the Columbia group stated that the Minutemen have tortured, murdered and killed suspected illegal immigrants. Although this does seem like something that this group is capable of (at least its base), I was wondering if there was -any- report from any media source that backs up this claim? I'm aware that this page is for dicussing the article, thus I'm asking in the name of laying out as much sources as possible in this article. 71.247.220.241 16:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I am sure it completely false. Personally I am neutral on this, but it does seem like some groups go out of their way to vilify them. user:Pzg Ratzinger
Interesting sidefacts on that. Members of Ranch Rescue, a group somewhat connected to the minutemen, were convicted of beating two illegal immigrants. Also members of the Border Patrol auxiliary, another group that patrols with the minutemen, have also been caught harassing and threatening activists. Members of Save our State, a group that has overlapping members with the minutemen, has submitted videos of themselves harassing hispanic people at a daylabor site and trying to provoke them. Now have the minutemen murdered or killed any illegals? Some have made an effort to camp out next to water holes to scare illegals away and maybe that indirectly killed people. As for directly killing anyone: who knows what happens out there in the desert. Mosquito-001 22:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Renunciation by Minuteman leader James Chase

I also have removed the section "Renunciation by Minuteman leader James Chase" because it unbalances the article to the left-side and has a heavy liberal viewpoint. There were no sources or citations of any of these allegations and I felt that a single person does not have the authority of wrongly stereotyping the Minuteman Project. 165.111.2.149 14:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

  • "I cannot continue in any way, shape or form in a relationship with Minuteman Civil Defense Corps or even Minuteman Project...James Gilchrist wanted to skin Chris alive but then they went to Washington and picked up the two DC crooks Mary Lewis [Gilchrist's congressional campaign manager] and Connie Hair [official Minuteman Project spokesperson] and the corruption machine was off and running. Now Mary is even allowing the Nazi party into the campaign and they refuse to remove Ranch Rescue, Andy Ramirez and Cliff Linquist from their links. So you have an absolute CON man Andy in your ranks sucking many thousands of dollars away from the cause. I have standards of right...sending email and letter requests for money to all of our people, even to my grandchildren, sisterinlaw, and distance English exstep mother is just without all Class or regard for civility. I am sad that some of you are so desperate, so gah gah, over what was a super lightning rod for antiillegal immigration that you refuse to see that ethics and honesty is above all. May the Lord Open your eyes to see and your nostrils to smell the manure before us."
  • Mary Parker Lewis managed Gilchrist's congressional campaign. Hair is the official Minuteman Project spokesperson.
  • Chase posted a similar disclaimer on his California Border Watch website, notifying his members and the public of the split in the Minuteman ranks.
  • In December, 2005 James turned over leadership of the California Minutemen (CMM) & the Border Watch Federation (BWF) to his son, Mike Chase. Recruits, operations and the influence of the California Minutemen expanded rapidly, and the N. County Times [1]bitterly complained of Mike Chase's appointment to the political steering committee of California Senator Bill Morrow's campaign for the 50th District Congressional seat vacated by Randy "Duke" Cunningham.
  • As reported by the Associated Press on January 27, 2006, [2] Chase's California Minutemen successfully stopped a program sponsored by HumaneBorders.org and the government of Mexico to supply over 70,000 maps to illegal aliens to aid their unlawful entry into the United States. Faced with the knowledge of several Title 8 United States Code section 1324 prosecutions in the United States, including from similar groups such as NoMoreDeaths.org, along with the fact that thousands of Minutemen now openly roamed the American border lands 24/7, the volunteers and Mexican government decided to suspend the program. Miguel Angel Paredes, a spokesman for Mexico's National Human Rights Commission said "This would be practically like telling the Minutemen where the migrants are going to be" and as such, they'd have to "rethink this".

There is quite of bit of material here. Though I agree the writing is poor, there are several sources and facts which appear worth salvaging. Did one of the founders, James Chase, denounce the group and leave it, forming a break-off group? Is this map issue noteworthy? Were there complaints about a leader of the Minutemen serving on a political campaign? We should establish if these are facts and add them back to the article if they are verifiable. -Will Beback 21:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I have found a source for some of these statements, though it is from Chase's organisation's own website. http://www.borderwatch.us/ca/ (click on "about us"- i can't directly link to the section). I see no reason why a section (carefully written to avoid POV) about Chase shouldn't be added, but will leave it a couple of days to allow people to comment here, as it does seem to have caused a lot of argument in the past Lurker 11:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Increasing support since May 1

I have deleted the following statement: "Ever since the May 1, 2006 protest by millions of legal and illegal immigrants, as well as their supporters, in the U.S., there has been increasing support for the Minuteman Project from different sections of the United States".

I deleted this, rather than let it stand with a tag asking for a citation for the following reasons:

1- A citation has been requested for a month, with no response.

2- The statement was added only a few days after the May 1 protest, making it unlikely to have been based on any verifiable data.

3- The statement, if unverified, adds bias to the article Lurker 11:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I support the deletion. If there is an actual citation, I would guess they would now put it in. Thanks for your efforts! Kimathi 16:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Racism?

Is this a racist organisation? I only ask because I've only recently heard of the organisation and when I read the website I got the impression of a racist agenda.

Conversly are the Minutemen concerned about the economic impact of either haveing or not having the illegal immigrants to do certain jobs

Ironcorona 14:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Minutemen are a VERY racist organization, and wish that every non-White person would go away. *coughcough* They're not in the least bit racist. If a person of any origin arrives in the US legally, they're all for it. If a person crosses illegally, then they've an issue. The only reason why they seem racist, is because the vast majority of illegal aliens are hispanic, flooding across the border of Mexico. I mean, if a certain demogaphic of people practiced Baalism, would I be racist for wanting to stop the baby killing?

If many different people killed babies and you only went after a certain demographic, you would indeed be racist. The Minutemen focus on illegal border crossings between Mexico and the US instead of the 40% of visa overstayers. Their fear campaign does attract numerous nativist, racist, and xenophobic followers. You must ask yourself: "how many Latinos are in this movement or supportive of it?" if you want to know the true identity of the group. You can sign your name by adding 4 ~s at the end of your post. Kimathi 23:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

So, according to Kimathi above, the Minutemen should investigate and track down visa overstayers? I thought that was the responsibility of the Federal government. The Minutemen are private citizens, and do not possess the resources or training to track down visa overstayers. However, they do have the resources and training to observe illegal alien activity, and report it to the proper authorities.

If one truly cared about illegal immigration, s/he would be concerned about all paths to illegally immigrating. If one cared about keeping the "Mexicans" out of the country in which one resides, s/he would watch a border. Kimathi 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Why do those who disagree with the Minutemen always have to play the "Race card"? And what exactly is a "nativist". From my perspective, there is nothing wrong or racist with wanting "the law" enforced, or with supporting the right of a sovereign nation to secure its borders against illegal immigration.

Check out nativist if you want to learn a definition. What will "secure a border"? A 50 foot fence? Then, there will be a 51 foot ladder. Do you truly want to kill someone who was searching for a better life for his or her family by crossing a border? Is that what Americans value? "The law" as we have seen throughout our history can be wrong or racist at times, yes? Then, should it be enforced? What would really stop illegal immigration? One would have to address the economic disparities created by a system that exploits the poor for the benefit of the rich. Kimathi 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Kimathi, I frankly don't care who is in the organization. There are no hispanics in my college's College Republican club, but nobody claims that they're racist. Conversly, nobody seems to care that there are no white people in the Salsa Club. That doesn't mean that either club is racist. As for the 40% via overstayers, the Minutemen have no way of legally assisting in that respect. None. Zip. Zero. They CAN NOT LEGALLY ASK ABOUT IT. Their goal is to cut down on the number of border crossing by assisting in the understaffed and overstretched US Border Patrol, and to bring the entire issue into the public eye - and thus force the Fed's hand to enforce the law all the way through. I've met enough people of Hispanic origin who think the entire Minuteman Project is a damn good idea. Why? BEcause they think of themselves as American, not Mexican - which most 'Hispanics' think of. The crux of the matter is, the Minutemen can only assist in the Border Patrol by just observing. They can't stop and check, they can only report what they think is illegal - much like the Neighborhood Watch. That's all the enforcement they can do. It just so happens that the VAST majority of people flooding over the US border in this invasion (Which fits the definition, by my book) are Hispanic. Like my Baalism reference, it may be that there are Lanquassians, Jarelians, and Barians all participating, but if the majority of the Baalists are Odvarrki, you'd be calling it racist to crack down on it. (Those are fictional ethnic groups, by the by, used in my stories.) And I don't sign my name using the 68.5.23.91 06:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC) because I don't feel like having an account. ~The guy from above.

The Prescript of the Ku Klux Klan stated that it was meant to protect the innocent from the lawless and defend the US Constitution - ie protect "the law". Would it be wrong to question who was attracted to such an organization? Would you then care who was in that organization? And from the actions/beliefs of the participants draw conclusions about the organization? I did not state that the Minutemen Project is a racist organization; rather, it attracts nativist, racist, and xenophobic members. Therefore, we should question the organization as a whole. Kimathi 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Except that the actions of the Ku Klux Klan are racist themselves. The Minutemen Project only seems to be, because the majority of people breaking the law they are assisting in the enforcement in by observation (And only observation) are of one race. ~The Guy FRom Above—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.5.23.91 (talk • contribs).
The minutemen are very much a racist organization, even though they don't want to be labeled as such and it "inconveniences" their supporters. I'm quite sure I read somewhere, something along the lines of "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"... But that doesn't hold anymore according to them. Furthermore, it's very hipocritical that the people behind this movement have last names like Gilchrist and Simcox, which honestly don't sound very "native-american" to me. Ask them why aren't they patroling the border between Canada and the US? Ask them why aren't they patroling the coasts of Florida to stop the influx of Cuban immigrants there... The argument that they just want the laws enforced is just crap! If they care so much about the law, why aren't they fighting drug traffic, robbers and murders? Problems that do affect the community. I'll tell you why... It's because of those dangerous mexicans! Imagine how bad it is in their country, that the immigrants are willing to die crossing the scorching desert heat and dodge trigger-happy rednecks just for the priviledge of scrubbing our toilets and picking up strawberries under the sun. Hell! The real "lucky" ones get to work at Wallmart! Imagine that! Jobs that most of us Americans won't do because we'd rather be on welfare that go under the sun to pick up grapes.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.231.253.100 (talk • contribs).
If you're refering to the baseplate on the statue of liberty, I don't think poems can be used to decide national policy. Why arn't they patrolling the border between US and Canada? Because Canada actually has a tight border. There's no 'flood' of people coming from the north. Why arn't they patroling the coasts of Florida? Because their resources are thin, and they want to concentrate on where the biggest problem is. These people are all volunteers, and in many cases, unpaid. Why arn't they fighting drug trafficers, robbers, and murderers? In one way, they are - by stopping the illegal crossings of the border (Actually, by telling the people who REALLY do the stopping where the border crossings are), I feel they are stopping drug traffickers, robbers, and murderers from entering the country. But you don't think about the bad people who are crossing the border, no, not at all! And if everyone ILLEGAL were to die crossing the desert ILLEGALLY to ILLEGALLY come to the United States and ILLEGALLY work, then, well, I wouldn't care one whit. I'm not a redneck, nor am I trigger-happy, but you'd make me sound like one, you would? ~The Guy From Above.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.5.23.91 (talk • contribs).
Perhaps poems cannot decide national policy, but values can. I do not wish to paint you as a redneck or as anything. However, I do want to encourage you and all others to value a human life dying in a desert. Do you really stand by such a comment? You do not care about the death of a fellow human being who happens to be breaking a law? Would you care about your son or daughter who may be driving two miles per hour over the speed limit resulting in a fatal collision? Would their illegal action warrant ill will or apathy towards their death? Although analogies like the above cannot be perfect, encouragement of understanding and empathizing with others are indeed 'American values.' We are famously a land of opportunity. That opportunity is exactly what motivates families who risk death to cross a border. Hopefully, we as Americans can all empathize with that situation and work to alleviate such a condition by examining our unfair trade policies that help to foster said conditions. Vigilantes along the border aren't the solution. Kimathi 06:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Anyway, do you think people like Rosa Parks and MLK Jr should have just all died because they broke a law? It's a pretty similar situation--a group is being oppressed and decide to break the laws for a chance at a better life. The Ungovernable Force 22:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I've no problem with them coming over here. Legally. They want to live here? Respect our laws. Unlike Rosa Parks and Dr. Martin Luther King Junior, these are NOT American citizens. Yet Mexico, where illegal immigrants are felons and treated even worse than anyone wants to treat illegals here (Well, anyone who is even partially sane; Neo-Nazis need no apply), complains the loudest. I empathize. I truely do. But it isn't within the bounds of the United States to dictate Mexican domestic policy, anymore than I feel that it isn't within the bounds of Mexico to dictate American domestic policy - which is the cause of all the people wanting to come to America. Mexico isn't a very nice place to live. I admit that. Personally, I think we should make the process of entering the US to live and work easier, simply because it IS a better place that Mexico. But the United States didn't create the problems in Mexico, anymore than Mexico created the US National Debt. The Mexican government is a corrupt institution mostly run by drug cartels and other organizations of the like. Now unless you are telling me we should take away Mexico's sovreignity to fix those problems, then the US has no right to do so - but we do have the right to make certain that their problems don't spill over to our country. I understand that America is the land of opportunity, but last I checked, we were also a land of the rule of law. Most of these people DO NOT RESPECT THAT. My family came over here from even WORSE conditions (Jews in the Russian Empire, late 1800s). Last I checked, these people are looking for a better economic chance, not being forced to leave by the government. Yet, my family came over legally. Certainly didn't try to sneak across the border. And yes, I stand by my statements about 'ill-wishing' and 'apathy', but trust me - I would LOVE to never hear about another person dieing crossing our borders illegally again, and that is what the Minuteman Project is about.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.5.23.91 (talk • contribs).
Your family was able to come here BECAUSE there weren't any racist groups like the minutement who organized and preassured government to stop the influx of immigrants! Perhaps if there were, your last name and living conditions would be much different. America is a country founded on immigration... What gives you and others the right to decided NOW who can come in and not?
Actually, US trade policies have a lot to do with the number of illegals in this country, so it is our problem to solve. And regardless, the fact that you think some imaginary line is the dividing mark between whether people have the right to live a decent life or suffer in abject poverty is fairly sick in my opinion. And the reason so many people are crossing illegally is because only a certain number of people are able to come in at a time, yet there are far more whose lives are so screwed up that they need to get out and go somewhere else (usually here). Most illegals I've talked with would very much like to be legal, but it's pretty hard. I also have friends on student visas and it's hard enough for them to stay here legally. And trust me, despite all the talk of political vs economic refugees, it's all the same. Having the right to a decent economic condition is just as vital as any other political or social rights. What good are civil rights if you're starving to death? It's easy for you to say that you respect the rule of law regarding immigration when you're already here. The Ungovernable Force 07:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes. It is easy for me to say that. But if I was living in Mexico, instead of fleeing to another country, I'd work to make the best of my situation. Its called national pride, and frankly, I've said all I can say. You seem to think that the US should let anyone who wants to come here, regardless of the laws. I say we should let anyone who wants to follow our laws come here. I don't care about economic condition, and frankly don't have such a good one myself. Doesn't mean I think we should be giving free money to anyone - and this is coming from a person who goes to school because the government is paying for it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.5.23.91 (talk • contribs).
I immigrated here legally from Mexico, and I fully back the Minutemen. To call them racist when the organization's leaders themselves have denounced all racists from the group is ridiculous; the race card, yet again, is so easy to play. 91% of illegal immigrants come from Mexico. That's why they patrol that border. I think it's funny when I tell people that I myself am a Mexican immigrant and I support the Minutemen. They always do a double take, regardless of which side they're on. :) Anyway, this organization is merely doing the job that the government turned a blind eye to for so long. Unfortunately, I believe anti immigrant sentiment IS rising since May 1st. But, with some protestors carrying Mexican flags and personally witnessing an American flag burning, I can see their POV. Under Pressure 01:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
First, your 91% statistic is misleading. Second, "anti-immigrant sentiment" has been a mainstay of "American" culture for decades. Unfortunately, we may have to experience more repercussions of such nativist attitudes, including the racism that it breeds, that this debate intends to exacerbate. Kimathi 00:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
How is it misleading when it is factual? Under Pressure 18:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
One of the criticisms of the Minutemen levelled here has been particularly ludicrous. This criticism is that the Minutemen are being racist by focusing on people who illegally cross into the United States from Mexico. To quote Kimathi, "The Minutemen focus on illegal border crossings between Mexico and the US instead of the 40% of visa overstayers." It is indeed uncontested fact that the Minutemen focus on border crossers rather than visa overstayers. However, this is not something that in any way reflects negativly on them or thier motives. Such a focused agenda is quite simply the most basic standard for an activist organization. Case in point: Habitiat for Humanity is an organization that aims to help the working poor. The organization focuses on providing shelter. It is certain that the vast majority of Habitat volunteers also believe that the working poor need healthcare. However, no one questions the motives of Habitat by saying, "If you care so much about the plight of the working poor, why are you only focusing on shelter? Why don't you provide healthcare." Similarly, the local free clinic is not harassed by people saying, "If you care so much about the working poor, why don't you try to provide them with housing?" The basic premis of such criticism is patently ridiculous. Now lets get out of hypotheticals and bring it back to the real world. The Minutemen care about stopping illegal immigration, so they focus on a particular facet of the problem where they can make a difference: illegal border crossings. TheKaplan 01:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Since I was quoted, I'll respond. Your hypothetical could be laughable if it wasn't so sad. The stark contrast between the groups helping to provide opportunities for those lacking resources like Habitat and the effort to limit opportunity along the Mexican border like the Minutemen is obvious. One provides a service to give opportunities for the poor. The other's mission is to stop opportunity to many individuals who are poor. So back to reality, a conclusion is that the Minutemen do not care about the people crossing borders because the Minutemen ultimately hurt, not help, them. Furthermore, the Minutemen focus on excluding a specific group of poor individuals. Concerning housing and restricting opportunities to certain groups, years after the civil rights movement were housing restriction efforts to racially segregate neighborhoods in order to "protect them" good for the security of the "law-abiding citizen" or racist? Kimathi 00:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Kimathi, I'm afraid you entirely missed the point of the analogy. Its purpose was not to draw direct parallels between the work being done by Habitat and that being done by the Minutemen; I thought that was quite clear. Instead, the analogy highlights the fact that if an activist group--any activist group--focuses on a single area of an issue where they can make a difference, that does not mean that they do not care about the rest of that issue. Habitat cares about poverty, and focuses on where they can make a difference: housing; The Minutemen care about illegal immigration, and focus on where they can make a difference: illegal border crossings. Thus we see that it does not make sense to say something like, "If the Minutemen care about illegal immigration, why don't they go after visa overstayers?" Something else in your response also caught my eye: "a conclusion is that the Minutemen do not care about the people crossing borders because the Minutemen ultimately hurt, not help, them." I believe that this is a fair statement. The Minutemen are, of course, not about protecting and helping the border crossers, but rather, are about protecting and helping American citizens and legal residents. TheKaplan 17:26, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I understood your intent with the analogy. However, the analogy also perfectly illustrated the contrast between target groups of Habitat and the Minutemen - helping the poor or oppressing opportunity, respectively. You have conceded that the statement that the Minutemen are nativist is fair. Now, does that nativism by "protecting and helping American citizens and legal residents" resemble at all the racist practices of segregating neighborhoods for the good of those neighborhood citizens? Kimathi 23:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the statement "A conclusion is that the Minutemen do not care about the people crossing borders because the Minutemen ultimately hurt, not help, them." does not automatically imply nativism. Remember, the Minutemen welcome legalimmigrants. Your counter-analogy only holds true if you believe that the segregation of neighbothoods was actually beneficial to the residents of the neighborhoods, and only harmful to those kept out, rather than harmful to both those in the neighborhoods and those kept out. I, on the other hand, do not concede that segregation was beneficial to anyone. TheKaplan 07:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
You are twisting your definition of "beneficial". Wealth and income disparities clearly show the detrimental effects of segragation more so on blacks than whites. To deny this is ridiculous and shows true racist beliefs. Similar to how segragating blacks from neighborhoods was agreeably not "beneficial" (good for humanity), hopefully you can understand how excluding and oppressing those who seek opportunity through hard work and extreme commitment by crossing the border is equally not beneficial. Is it beneficial (good for humanity) to exclude people from a different culture or native tongue in order to "protect" a native culture or language? Kimathi 16:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
You speak of opportunity, but remember: illegal immigration is not a victimless crime, a fact you seem to be blind to. If it were, and were only about people gaining a right to work and be free in the United States, there wouldn't be a debate (maybe among racists, which the Minuteman organization is not composed of). I don't need to tell you about the negative aspects of illegal immigration, because I'm sure you're well aware. Under Pressure 18:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Where is this debate going? It no longer seems to be related to the article and instead comes across as a discussion on whether or not the Minuteman Project is racist. An interesting debate, to be sure, but is a wikipedia talk page really the place for it? Will this discussion have any bearing on the content of the article? If not, why should we be having it here? Lurker 10:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

While the debate does not directly contribute to the writing of the article, this discussion helps alleviate questions by people visiting this article. I think this is a healthy contribution; however if a consensus of contributors want it removed, I will be more than happy to delete my part. Kimathi 16:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Likewise, if the consensus of editors think that this non-beneficial tangent, I will be fine to discontinue or move the discussion. However, I know that when I personally look up articles for information I check the talk page as well to learn the basics of the debate over it. TheKaplan 15:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't have any particular reason for wanting this debate closed or moved, nor do I know of any guidelines on the issue. This section just looks long -it dominates the talk page- and, as it is no longer directly concerned with the article text, I'm wondering if this is an appropriate place for it. Lurker 15:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like simple math to me. If one wants to make a dent in stopping illegal border crossing, one goes to where it occurs the most and that's the US-Mexico border. If on average 1 illegal crossing occurs at US-Mexico border per minute and 1 illegal crossing occurs at US-Canada crossing per 30 minutes, which border deserves the most attention? This may be politically incorrect but it's not racism, it's just simple math. -NYC 19:59, 12 October (UTC)

[edit] Split from MMP

According to this statement from Jim Gilchrist, the Minuteman Project and the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps are two separate entities, with he heading the former and Simcox the latter. So they probably need to be split and the point needs to be elaborated.--Rockero 01:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

You are most assuredly correct. I'll do some work to this end. Kc8ukw 23:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. Let's talk about The Minuteman Project, Inc., here, and The Minuteman Civil Defense Corps on the page of that name. Kc8ukw 00:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's a little tidbit that should pretty well set straight ANY doubts that the Minuteman Project and the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps are SEPARATE groups:

The Minuteman Project is NOT the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. Jim Gilchrist is the only founder of the Minuteman Project, Inc. The article in the Washington Times on July 20, 2006 By Jerry Seper can be very confusing. http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060719-091346-2988r.htm

The Minuteman Civil Defense Corps does not represent all the Minutemen throughout the United States nor do they represent the Minuteman Project, Inc. who's only founder is Jim Gilchrist. The Minuteman Project, Inc. does not have any business dealing with, the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, whose President is Chris Simcox.

Over a year ago, Mr. Jim Gilchrist led over 1,000 volunteers to the U.S. and the Mexican border in Southeast Arizona and successfully conducted the largest Minuteman campaign since the Revolutionary War. The Minuteman Project also proved beyond a doubt that U.S. borders can be protected if our political leaders merely have the will to do so. Jim Gilchrist's Minuteman Project brought national awareness to the illegal alien invasion of the United States and embarrassed both the U.S. Congress and the White House.

When asked by the media about The Minuteman Project, the president went on record as saying, "Mr. Jim Gilchrist and the volunteers of The Minuteman Project were 'vigilantes.'" Because of the nature of the Illegal alien invasion Jim Gilchrist has created the Minuteman Project, Inc. as a stand alone independent organization. He has employed an independent C.P.A. accounting firm to keep his organization in compliance. While The Minuteman Project, Inc. and Mr. Jim Gilchrist recognize the work of Chris Simcox and his Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, there is no business relationship with either Chris Simcox or his organization. The Minuteman Project, Inc., and Mr. Jim Gilchrist will always applaud the work of any patriot who believes in the sovereignty and security of the United States of America. The Minuteman Project, Inc. is directed solely by Mr. Jim Gilchrist, his Board of Directors, and no one else. For more information please visit our website at:www.MinutemanProject.com

THIS is only ONE article that has misled people across the nation. It is loose and unverified journalism such as this, that causes many problems in our nation.

THE WASHINGTON TIMES - July 20, 2006 Minutemen not watching over fundsBy Jerry Seper THE WASHINGTON TIMESJuly 20, 2006

A growing number of Minuteman Civil Defense Corps leaders and volunteers are questioning the whereabouts of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of dollars in donations collected in the past 15 months, challenging the organization's leadership over financial accountability.

Many of the group's most active members say they have no idea how much money has been collected as part of its effort to stop illegal entry -- primarily along the U.S.-Mexico border, what it has been spent on or why it has been funneled through a Virginia-based charity headed by conservative Alan Keyes.

Several of the group's top lieutenants have either quit or are threatening to do so, saying requests to Minuteman President Chris Simcox for a financial accounting have been ignored. Other Minuteman members said money promised for food, fuel, radios, computers, tents, night-vision scopes, binoculars, porta-potties and other necessary equipment and supplies never reached volunteers who have manned observation posts to spot and report illegal border crossers.

Gary Cole, the Minutemen's former national director of operations, was chief liaison to the national press corps during the group's April 2005 border watch in Arizona. He was one of the first to raise questions about MCDC finances. He personally collected "tens of thousands of dollars" in donations during the 30-day border vigil. But despite numerous requests -- many directly to Mr. Simcox -- he was never told how much money had been collected or where it went.

"This movement is much too important to be lost over a question of finances," Mr. Cole said. "We can't demand that the government be held accountable for failing to control the border if we can't hold ourselves accountable for the people's money. It's as simple as that."

Mr. Cole said he was removed by Mr. Simcox as a national director after the April 2005 border campaign "for asking too many questions about the money," but he returned in October and again in April of this year to help locate and man observations posts for the Minuteman border watch in New Mexico.

"I didn't want the thing to fail because it is much too important, so I came back to help out," said Mr. Cole, who spent five months on the Arizona and New Mexico borders living out of a camper on the back of his pickup. "But that doesn't mean my concern went away." Absent accounting

Mr. Simcox, in an interview last week with The Washington Times, estimated that about $1.6 million in donations have been collected, all of it handled through the Herndon-based Declaration Alliance, founded and chaired by Mr. Keyes. He said the donations, solicited on the group's Web site and during cross-country appearances, included $1 million directly to MCDC and $600,000 for a fence on the U.S.-Mexico border.

But Mr. Simcox's numbers could not be independently verified, including claims in a 3,961-word statement issued after the interview that he spent $160,000 on "our last two month long border-watch operations."

The Minuteman organization has not made any financial statements or fundraising records public since its April 2005 creation. It also has sought and received extensions of its federal reporting requirements and has not given the Minuteman leadership, its volunteers or donors any official accounting. A financial statement promised to The Times by Mr. Simcox for May was never delivered. "I agree that the Minuteman volunteers and those who donated money to us have a right to know how much has been collected and on what it has been spent, and I know there is a lot of concern in the ranks regarding finances," Mr. Simcox told The Times. "That's why I sought capable accountants to get those answers, and I intend to make them public as soon as they are available.

"I can't wait for the final audit to answer and embarrass our critics, those who have tried to destroy this organization," he said, blaming the concern about his leadership and accountability on open borders and anti-rule of law lobbyists, racists and "those who were terminated from MCDC for violating our code of conduct."

In the statement, Mr. Simcox said that a "fully accredited, independent auditor" had begun an accounting of income and expenses and that a final audit would be delivered to the Internal Revenue Service by Nov. 15. It also said MCDC financial operations are overseen by professional banking institutions, accountants, auditors and lawyers, none of whom was identified.

He told The Times that the audit was costing MCDC $50,000, but declined to say who was getting the money or identify other fees paid by the Minuteman organization to other "professional" entities.

'Seriously wrong' Mike Gaddy, a retired Army veteran of Vietnam, Grenada and Beirut who helped organize the Minuteman's April 2005 border watch as a field coordinator, said he and other volunteers challenged Mr. Simcox on numerous occasions to come up with a financial accounting and are suspicious of the need for hiring outside consultants.

"When we heard he was hooking up with outside consultants, I pleaded with Simcox that he had to keep this thing squeaky clean because the Minuteman movement was essential to this nation's sovereignty," Mr. Gaddy said.

He said Mr. Simcox rejected his offer last year to personally pay for an audit to answer growing concern among the ranks about the group's finances. "He told me what he did was his business." "Something is seriously wrong," he said. "I saw firsthand the dedication of the men and women who volunteered to stand these border watches, sometimes under very difficult circumstances, and proudly came to the conclusion that this is what America was all about. But a number of people I thought I could trust have since disappointed me." Mr. Gaddy said he did not know how much money the organization had collected, but said, "It would be a substantial sum."

Keyes questions Several other Minuteman members question why Mr. Keyes' organization is involved in collecting MCDC donations, saying donations to the movement should be handled by the Minuteman leadership, who could be directly responsible for it.

Mr. Keyes has financially endorsed and supported the Minuteman organization as programs of Declaration Alliance and the Declaration Foundation, another Virginia-based charitable organization that he heads. He accused internal MCDC critics of being "decidedly racist and anti-Semitic," saying they had been removed as members of the Minuteman organization.

"I personally applaud Chris Simcox for his diligent adherence to a rigorous standard that weeds out bigots from the upstanding, patriotic mainstream Americans who participate in the Minuteman citizens' border watch effort that I am proud to support," he said.

Mr. Keyes said that MCDC is in the process of applying to the IRS for nonprofit status and that those responsible are "adhering to all relevant federal regulations." He called concerns over finances and accountability "groundless," saying they were being "bandied about by members of anti-immigrant and racialist groups, and other unsavory fringe elements attempting to hijack the border security debate to further their individual agendas."

He also said Declaration Alliance's involvement with the Minuteman organization is based on his belief that border security is a fundamental issue affecting national security, sovereignty and public safety.

"I have wished to do all in my power to assist the Minutemen's growth into a national civic movement as quickly as possible -- as the public exposure of the lawless state of our southern border is a matter of utmost urgency," he said, adding that his "organizational team has an established history of effective issues advocacy, grass-roots activism, political campaigning, financial accountability, regulatory compliance and fundraising."

'No acceptable answers' Earlier this year, Vern Kilburn resigned as director of operations for the Minuteman's northern Texas sector because of what he called "professional differences with the management and business practices" of the MCDC national headquarters.

In a letter of resignation, he said Mr. Simcox and other Minuteman leaders offered "no acceptable answers" to concerns that he had about the management, accountability, ownership and the distribution of money for the Texas operation, adding that they were unable to verify Texas' share of the Minuteman donations.

Mr. Kilburn said that only two checks for $1,000 came from MCDC headquarters in October for the Texas operation and that other Minuteman leaders across the country "are having similar problems concerning money or the lack of."

Although he resigned as director of operations, he said he sought to remain with MCDC to continuing his work with "like-minded patriots" but was fired by Mr. Simcox. He declined to expand on his letter, saying only he "pretty much had my fill of the Minuteman as far as Chris Simcox goes."

Mr. Gaddy, Mr. Cole and Mr. Kilburn are among only a few Minuteman leaders and volunteers who have come forward publicly over questions about accountability. The vast majority declined to be identified for fear of hurting the movement. "I have no interest in going on the record in this matter," said one top MCDC leader who heads one of the organization's most active groups. "I have a lot of the same questions and have never received answers that are satisfactory. I have been contemplating resigning for a number of reasons, and lack of public accountability is one of those reasons."

Money for supplies? Several Minuteman volunteers said questions concerning the group's finances intensified during October when money promised by Mr. Simcox and others for food and supplies never reached the volunteers on the line.

Some of the MCDC leaders gathered at the time to discuss replacing Mr. Simcox but reached no consensus. At that meeting, attended by The Times, they said money promised for field operations was never delivered and questioned the role of "outsiders" with the Minuteman organization.

Mr. Simcox angrily denied the accusations, telling The Times that MCDC "spent probably about what we collected" on the border vigils to pay for and send supplies to the volunteers on both the Mexican and Canadian borders.

In the statement, he said volunteers were provided satellite phones, radios, repeaters, antennae, batteries, flashlights, maps, porta-potties, thermal imaging cameras, video cameras, third-generation night-vision cameras and computer systems. It also said MCDC money was used to buy water, Gatorade, snacks, tents, canopies and the cost of printing letters, postage, brochures and banners used at gun shows, parades and recruiting events.

"These people were willing to volunteer their time to come to the border, some at great expense, and they deserved to have the proper equipment in the field," he told The Times. "That is exactly what we did."

But Mr. Gaddy, who left the Minuteman organization last year after serving as director of operations for New Mexico, said that if Mr. Simcox spent "probably about what we collected" to purchase necessary field equipment and supplies for the volunteers on the border, he didn't see any of it. "An awful lot of the equipment I saw was donated," he said.

Some Minuteman volunteers also said food was sent by the organization to some border sites, but it was not free. Others also have sought an accounting of the income MCDC has received through the sale off its Web page of hats, caps, T-shirts, wristbands, decals, bumper stickers, dog tags, license-plate holders and figurines. Fenced out

Even Mr. Simcox's much-ballyhooed fence project on the Arizona-Mexico border has come under fire, from both within and outside the MCDC organization. Critics said vast sums of money are being collected to build what has been described as an Israeli-style fence to keep out illegal aliens, but all that has been constructed is three miles of a five-strand barb-wired range fence on 2-inch metal poles.

One former Minuteman volunteer said the fence "wouldn't stop a tricycle."

Mr. Simcox also dismissed the fence criticism, calling it "unfounded" and a product of "those who want to destroy us and the movement." In the statement, he said he hopes to raise $55 million for the fence and build a double-layered, 14-foot-high barrier "as funds become available."

We are staying on task, and they can take their intentions of destroying the greatest citizen movement to save the Republic this country has seen in recent history and hike it," it said.

Mr. Simcox also said he does not receive a salary from MCDC, but "otherwise, it is no one's business" how he earns a living. In the statement, he said the "hours of toil and sacrifice necessary to run this national organization" had taken a toll on his personal life and led to his sale of the Tombstone Tumbleweed newspaper in Arizona, where he was owner and publisher.

"My present source of income has been the honorariums and fees received from organizations who request me for speaking engagements," it said. "I have also received money from selling my life story for a movie that will soon go into production. Even with those combined sources of income, I have made just enough to keep my head above water."

A former kindergarten teacher, Mr. Simcox said in the statement that he will request "a modest salary to maintain my role as president of MCDC," and if the Minuteman board and national directors do not agree, "it will be necessary for me to leave the organization and return to teaching -- or I may need to go get a job at Wal-Mart or Home Depot." For more information please visit our website at:www.MinutemanProject.comDonate NowHelp support our volunteers!

Start a Minuteman Chapter We are planning 500 new Minuteman Chapters from coast to coast by Christmas! It's easy, fun and it must be done! Sign the Minuteman PledgeWe need people of good moral character and not afraid of being called a Patriot! Download, sign and fax to: 949-222-6607 E-Mail Blast and Blast Fax Capitol HillOur programmers have just installed our newest service! NOW you can fax and e-mail blast Congress and the Senate all you want!!!

Minuteman Project email: jimgilchrist@minutemanproject.com donate: Minuteman Project Donations web: http://www.minutemanproject.com What else can you do? Send us your patriotic ideas and visit us at our web site.

All anyone needs do is just ask the right questions. Being a United States citizen is a responsibility and a duty to maintain this country from what was handed down to us through the Founding Fathers and those along the way that willingly gave their lives to protect this country and it's citizens. This country's maintenance is the responsibility and duty of ALL of it's citizens, not just a select few. EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN! The question remains: "WHEN are YOU going to throw into the pot and ante up to protect and maintain YOUR country?"

Gregory Romeu; Prior Service United States Marine Corps, Member Marine Corps League, Member Minuteman Project, Member Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, Member Father's Rights Movement.

THIS I guarantee you can take to the bank: You can bet your sweet ass that if "I" have a question that only the Commandant of the Marine Corps can answer, YOU will see me asking the Commandant of the Marine Corps THAT question!" Gregory Romeu

[edit] How often is often?

From what I understand, more often than not...--Rockero 02:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cite sources!

I've manged to find sources for some statements save one. Could someone please find a source for this? Otherwise I shall remove it Lurker 11:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot to say what the statement in question was. It was 'Jim White, the leader of the watchdog group within the anti-illegal alien movement wrote, "Most people liken Mr. Carreon to right-winged consipracy theorist that many people widely ignore. We welcome people from all over the world, just do it legally."' from the section "Opposition to the Minuteman Project". It would be a shame to have a notice up saying this article fails to cite its sources for the sake of one quote, so I'll get rid of it soon if someone doesn't provide a source. Lurker 13:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard of any Jim White in the anti-illegal immigration movement. And usually, any time ACN (La Voz de Aztlan) is mentioned in any publication, it is bruited all over their website, but there is no sign of this one anywhere. My suspicion is that is someone's opinion disguised as a quote.--Rockero 18:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't look like a "real" statement, for a start the grammar is wrong. I'll remove it- if anyone can find a source they are welcome to restore it. Lurker 13:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Invasion of Mexico

How exactly are the plans of invading Mexico and killing each of its citizens? El Chompiras 21:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Could you please tell us what you are on about? Lurker 13:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Lurker, it's probably best not to encourage the trolls. Just ignore 'em and they'll go away.--WilliamThweatt 15:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] corp vs project

The Minuteman "Project" website has a disclaimer by Jim Gilchrist stating his group is not affiliated with the Minuteman "Civil Defense Corp." Under an internet search using the search words Minuteman "Civil Defense Corp" it leads to a wikipedia page that is titled with the defense corp name yet goes on to describe the minuteman "project." The distinction between these two separate groups needs to be made and separate articles describing each group need to be made even though the groups have similar goals and practices. A link to the other group could also be inserted on each group's page.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.177.22.121 (talk • contribs).

[edit] New news reports

[edit] See Also?

I think there should be a "See Also" section which adds Save Our State (which the SPLC brands a "hate group." Jim Gilchrist has close ties to SOS and I have documentation of phone calls between him and the guy who runs SOS' protests. Maybe an addition of "immigration debate," etc. -Anonymous 23:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Membership?

I would like to join this organization as an Italian-american, I saw how this great organization was attacked by traitors on the O'reilly factor! I live in New Jersey, far from the southern border, but I do have a strong stance AGAINST ILLEGAL immigration!

Thy take away the opportunities to immigrate LEGALLY of everyone else! They take away revenue because they don't pay taxes! It is also ridiculous to support them, it is why they are cvonsidered ILLEGALS! You can't have a view on this, they are illegals, what can you say? LOL ILLEGALS! I don't appreciate how they take away opportunities from people of other nations that apply LEGALLY! This is not fair, and also they need to learn that either they passify their culture at the border, or they don't come at all, otherwise why did they come here if they want to embrace a culture they abandoned? So sign me up :) Crud3w4re 07:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice PR but if you want to join so bad you might try the website Mosquito-001 13:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. My apologies, I won't be joining, but I just was very angered by what I saw on TV. That is not how you protest against something, you don't attack them. I think a section needs to be in here that mentions that they are brutally attacked by people that have no regard for the law. Crud3w4re 19:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It's already widely known that they were attacked for being against illegal immigration, what is "reliable evidence" for you? Crud3w4re 03:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Say, a news report, or article in the paper. 132.228.195.206 20:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] why a npov tag

holy weasel words, batman! this article is rife with loaded language on both sides. remember that alternating between pro- and con- sides engaging in weaseling is not a good measure of npov. witness: "the illegal alien invasion crisis jeopardizing the future of the United States" as an example. let's strive to make a decent, encyclopedic entry! frymaster 05:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand your concern but I think that section was meant to convey the mission of the minute men in "their own words". Translating the nature of the group to something less offensive would be a disservice to the group and to its critics. Mosquito-001 18:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't see those exact words on their website. I htink we should give a neutral acount of their mission, and use "their own words" in a quote later on. -Will Beback 01:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
preciesely. if there need be weasel words, they should be in the context of quotes inside quotation marks and sourced -- this should be applied to both the minutemen and their detractors. i would even be content with language such as "the minutemen work towards stopping illegal immigration which they see as an 'invasion' " or some such.frymaster 23:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
If you want to set the record straight, view AMERICA:Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo available through http://freedomtofascism.com

This page is biased. The shirt incident doesn't mention anything that the Mexican immigrant said afterwards. He described what happened during his arrest and how the minutemen treated him. This interview was in a newspaper article in Mexico. The section in the entry doesn't mention that or anything said by any other groups regarding this incident.

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Rich Farmbrough, 11:04 11 December 2006 (GMT).

[edit] Clarify or cite, please.

"It has worked to construct double-layered fencing on private property along the Mexico border." What does this mean? Has fencing actually been contructed? Are there actual indications that this is realistic, not just PR? Anyway I've changed it, please change it back if they have actually contructed soem fence. Rich Farmbrough, 11:24 11 December 2006 (GMT).

[edit] Various Copy Editing:

I was reading the article and found the "Opposition to the Minuteman Project" section to be confusing...particularly the section on the SPLC. I rearranged the copy to make it a bit more coherent and readable.MArcane 19:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

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