Talk:The Hobbit

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Contents

[edit] Legendarium?

Legendarium? This word doesn't make the Oxford English Dictionary. Any chance someone who knows what it supposedly means can replace it with a word that actually exists...

I've seen it applied numerous times as a synonymous name for the array of Tolkien's mythology (just look it up in Google to make sure!), and there was no problem with that, both for me and the author. However if you don't like the word, feel free to replace it by whatever you want (e.g. mythology is close). --Uriyan

I love the word "legendarium," but it is not in common usage. Plus Mythology lets us link to that page. -- Cayzle

Legendarium was used by Tolkien himself. And legendarium can be made into a redirect to mythology. Ausir 14:51, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Finnish translation

The Hobbit was considered a children's book when it was first translated into Finnish, with a matching translation of names and an illustration by Tove Jansson. This version tends to cause either mirth or nausea in good amounts among Finnish fans of Tolkien. Would this warrant a mention in the article? -- Kizor

Well, but it WAS written as a children's book :). Ausir 14:51, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Which Tolkien later regretted. — Jor (Talk) 15:13, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
An excellent point, sir. Though the contrast Dragon Mountain (as this version was called) has with the later translation and the rest of Tolkien's works is nonetheless absurd. Kizor

[edit] Synopsis

General comment about book synopses: is it really necessary to detail the entire plot? To me, it not only makes the article unwieldy, it opens the door to more error, inconsistencies, etc. User:Alcarillo

Under the "Novel" section yet another example is made depriving Tolkien of ever having Meaning in his work because he disliked allegory, mentioned in his forward to a later edition of LOTR. People conveniently omit what he goes on to say that he doesn't like allegory proper, but does not have a problem with applicability, the former is the author's direct desire to control your interpretation and the latter allows the reader freedom to interpret. Too many people tend to confuse allegory with any degree of moral quotient. An allegorical interpretation of the work includes making the ring stand in for nuclear bombs or a specific character representing a real life person, etc etc etc. It was this Tolkien presumably detested. Degrees of moral value, open to the interpretation of the reader- mythos, obligation, faith, socio-religious system (anarchic catholicism) are all there in spades, it is just up to the reader to interpret any meaning for themselves. The Lord of the Rings is a very spiritual work, it is just not dead on specific or heavy handed. Just what Tolkien intended at the time of writing The Hobbit, who knows, but tapping into the mythos of Heroism certainly seems manifest. But it is generic to say the least, Bilbo certainly doesn't represent anything specific, or Gollum or Smaug etc etc etc.

[edit] Preview of Sequel

Does the "Preview of Sequel" section really belong? The format of the article led me to believe that allusions to the beginning of The Lord of the Rings were featured at the end of the book, but upon reaching it I found no such references. This is misleading; we needn't a whole paragraph "previewing" LotR if no such preview is in The Hobbit itself. - [[User:Furrykef|furrykef (Talk at me)]] 23:04, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think it can go. Elsewhere the article makes it clear that The Hobbit comes before The Lord of the Rings. If the reader is interested in learning more about LOTR they can read its article(s). --Mrwojo 00:43, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Influences through Beowulf

Wouldn't it be worth mentioning how much Tolkien was influenced by Beowulf when writing the Hobbit? Perhaps even the parallels could be drawn out. If you guys want me to, I can do it... Matthias

The only parallel to Beowulf I can think of is the Dragon, Smaug. And that may just be a coincidence. Dragons are a recurring theme in fantasy tales. Do you have any other examples? EreinionImage:RAHSymbol.JPG

A party of 13 sets out for satisfaction or revenge. In both parties there is a thief, who steals a cup from a dragon by using a secret passage. So far about the story. Singing is very important in the hobbit, poems presented by scoppes were important for Anglo Saxons and two are found in Beowulf. The dwarfish culture also has elements of Anglo Saxon culture, e.g. where Anglo Saxon names are often alliterated if they people are from the same family, the names of the dwarfes rhyme. Loyalty to their leader and kin is also very important to the dwarfes and they have bloodfeuds with the goblins(orcs) of moria. Also both Bilbo and Beowulf are pretty typical tragic heroes, e.g. supernatural ability (ring/strentgh), supernatural help(Gandalf/God,fate), reluctant to accept task(obvious wth Bilbo/Beowulf consults wise men berfore leaving to kill Grendel) and both are separated(Bilbo in the mountain/Beowulf when he faces Grendels mother), as well as both have honor and follow the heroic code(Bilbo gives smaragds to elves king/obvious with Beowulf). I know that some points are very common in fantasy, but since Tolkien studied Beowulf, I think it had a big influence on him and on The Hobbit and this is worth mentioning as an own point. Sorry for my bad english by the way. Matthias

Interesting...perhaps there is a greater correlation between the two. You've made several interesting points and have given good examples -- many of which seem more than just genre-related coincidence. I think you have something, and until someone reasonably disputes it, I say go ahead and add it to the main article. EreinionImage:RAHSymbol.JPG 23:10, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

I'm working at a paper for school for this and at the same time trying to recover my account, so I'll guess you'll see something this weekend. Matthias

I'd be interested in reading anything else you could find. EreinionImage:RAHSymbol.JPG

Try google, here something I found: http://faculty.uca.edu/~jona/second/hobbeow.htm http://www.unm.edu/~medinst/resources/weblinks/tolkienweb.htm

Some are rather profound though and I don't know if they have a place in the article except in further reading. Matthias


See "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics". Tolkien published an essay on Beowulf in 1936 - a year before the Hobbit. The copy I'm reading is included in "Beowulf: A Verse Translation" ISBN 0-393-97580-0. Validation, anyone?

I made a few edits, might come back and do more when I have more time. I cut out a few things from the "Similarities to Beowulf" heading, here's why:

"While Beowulf has the help of God, Bilbo often prevails because of his sheer luck which may or may not be due to some kind of divine providence."

Redundant. Also the Christian references in Beowulf are edits by the monk(s) that made the surviving copy, which Tolkien knew and probably wouldn't have incorporated.

"Both get separated from their group, Bilbo in the mountains, Beowulf when he is captured by Grendel's mother."

Beowulf's encounter with Grendel's dam predates his encounter with the dragon by 50 years. I can't think of any parallels from Beowulf from the first two monsters, if anyone can this might bear editing & reinserting.

Edited reference to Beowulf as an "epic poem" to just "poem". Its status as an epic is highly questionable, and Tolkien himself considered it not to be one. Any "is or is not it an epic" coverage can go in a different section, here I'll stick to Tolkien's writings. 71.32.91.112 22:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge minor dwarves?

I'd like to merge the articles on the 12 minor dwarf companions to create a collected Dwarves of The Hobbit (or similar) article. Each is a minor character that will never have more than a few sentences or paragraphs written about them. I think that by collecting them in one place it would make it easier to learn more about the minor dwarves. Any objections? --Mrwojo 21:19, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On second thought, I think it would be misleading to put the Dwarves together like that, since much of the (relatively important) information known about them comes from sources other than The Hobbit. For example, that Glóin is the father of Gimli and is present at the Council of Elrond. --Mrwojo 16:37, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Differences in tone: TH and LotR

  • If a clock is an anachronism then it appears in LotR as well, at least by implication. The characters, Hobbits in particular, always describe the time of day by hours of the clock. I think the Antikythera mechanism demonstrates that sophisticated clockworks are well within the reach of premodern technology and that clocks are therefore not necessarily anachronistic anyway.
  • The Sackville-Bagginses appear in LotR as well.
  • Giants do not explicitly appear in LotR or Sil, true, but in LotR the geographical name Ettinmoors north of Rivendell preserves a reference to them. That they are not developed further and do not appear to fit well into the rest of the legendarium does not tell against their existence (quite apart from the intentions of the author, whose opinion on the matter I can't recall ATM) since at least the latter could also be said against Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. I believe Steuard Jenson has made a case for giants as a species of nature spirit in LotR.
  • Although Goblins are not called Orcs, I think it was pretty clear that they were a race of man-eating humanoid warriors. I didn't read them as mere bogeymen at all. They may be toned down a bit for a younger audience, but I could see no real difference.
  • "Tobacco" perhaps ought to be here, but isn't. Although some German pathologists have detected traces of tobacco (and cocaine!) in Egyptian mummies, thereby suggesting early Old World/New World ties, this postdated the writing of TH by decades and was not information available to Tolkien. He was careful to avoid the word in LotR while also postulating in the Prologue that "pipeweed" was a species of nicotiana that later became extinct in the Old World. (Which in the case of the mummies may be the true explanation.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:40, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
This is all very interesting and all, but I'm not certain what it has to do with anything. Are you attempting to contrast a chronology and establish a timeline, or are you just sharing some very good research? Ereinion 04:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm commenting on the bulleted list in the "Alternative versions" section of the article. Sorry if that was unclear. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Ah, no problem. I just didn't know the frame of context. Ereinion 17:13, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
  • An objection is made in this section that Bilbo lost his hood and cloak after falling into Gollum's cavern, yet puts them on before leaving Bag End. Is it not conceivable that he purchased a new hat and cloak during the intervening sixty years?
  • Maybe i'm wrong, but Surely the necromancer of mirkwood mentioned in the hobbit several times is infact Sauron, not Saruman as the article suggests? Saruman was the leader of the white council, who investigates and drove out the necromancer from mirkwood as stated in all the other wikipedia articles. Saruman wasn't found to have sided with Sauron until later in the Lord of the Rings. Razamafez 01:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
    That seems to have been a bit of stealth vandalism someone sneaked in, but I cut the whole thing anyway as it's not really an inconsistency. We know from various things said in LotR that, although it may have been known to the White Council that the Necromancer was Sauron, this was not common knowledge, and "The Necromancer" was how the dark power of Dol Guldur was generally called. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beowulf

I can't help but feel that many of these comparisons are misapplied. There's more a general similarity with other legends of northwest Europe than Beowulf as such. A direct comparison between Bilbo and Beowulf himself is extremely strained, as Bilbo is very much not an heroic character. Much of the humor in the book comes from the contrast between Bilbo's bourgeoise mannerisms and the heroic behavior of the other characters. Besides, there is a direct parallel to Beowulf in TH: Beorn. Their names even mean the same thing. For the moment I confine myself to correcting some of the more glaring errors in this section, but I really question whether it's useful at all. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:51, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I think disscecting the useful information and assimilating it back into the rest of the article may be the best thing to do and just get rid of the category altogether. Ereinion 21:58, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the "Beowulf hypothesis" doesn't really warrant inclusion.

[edit] Influences & Adaptations

This is a messy section. I've removed 2 references to Led Zepplin songs that were influenced by the Lord of the Rings - not The Hobbit, they rightfully belong in the LOTR section. I can't find Enya actually doing a song influenced by The Hobbit itself, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, if someone more into Enya could list actual Hobbit songs, or remove her. Leonard Nimoys "The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins" - isn't this more of an adaptation than an influence?

Also shoudln't Adaptations come after Editions? seems more logical to me to talk about the book first, and secondary versions after? The only reason I didn't do it was I'm not sure how!--Davémon 18:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

For influences, the album by Pink Floyd, the Piper at the Gates of Dawn, was largely influenced by the Hobbit.

[edit] Film

Peter Jackson adapted The Lord of the Rings into films. So why didn't he do The Hobbit as well? Scorpionman 19:38, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

It's still in the planning stages. [1] TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Image

That hobbit picture is awful. Could someone replace it with something a bit more professional? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.72.130.134 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Peter Jackson version?

Peter Jackson, Director of the Lord of the Rings trilogy has expressed interest in filming The Hobbit with some of his former cast returning to reprise their roles (i.e., Ian McKellan and Andy Serkis, but likely Ian Holm would not return to play Bilbo, due to the age difference.) Jackson has spoken publicly on the subject:

"Three or four years would be accurate, I would say. I think there is probably a will and a desire to try and get it made. But I think it's gonna be a lot of lawyers sitting in a room trying to thrash out a deal before it will ever happen."[2]

(Moved this here because it's a rumour, and not appropriate for an encyclopedia entry - yet! --Davémon 18:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC))


[edit] Image

how about we move the dust jacket image to the infobox and junk the image of the actual book - it seems a bit silly to have that frankly? Although it is quite interesting with the dragon motif and stuff, maybe swap them? Morwen - Talk 20:59, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

It is standard practice to prefer the "First edition" cover in the infobox - it is the "most notable" in publishing. Being illustrated by what I take to be Tolkien himself it is probably of even more interest. If there is a dust jacket cover which was on the first edition that should be prefered - but I hav'n't found one. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 15:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Both the cover and dust-jacket images shown on the page were designed by Tolkien for the first edition. The dust jacket was originally more detailed and had more colors (red sun, two different shades of green, et cetera) but had to be simplified due to production costs. --CBD 01:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Continuity error(s)

Not really a difference in tone: Bilbo loses his dark green hood and cloak (borrowed from Dwalin) after falling into Gollum's cave, yet puts them on before leaving Bag End. Readers of The Hobbit will recognize that these are his old clothes (contrary to what is asserted above), since the color is the same and they're "weather-stained". Uthanc 07:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Explicit differences and inconsistencies

We need to be more explicit about the differences with LoTR. For example, we currently list this as an inconsistency:

There is lighthearted use of "magic"; Gandalf is said to have given the Old Took a pair of diamond studs that "fastened themselves and never came undone till ordered", and when Bilbo tries to steal a purse from the trolls, the purse shouts.

What is the inconsistency here? We need to be clear about how this differs from LoTR.

Same goes for all the others. --P3d0 20:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I've adjusted some of them. I added a {{fact}} tag in my discussion of Bilbo's clock. What I wrote seemed obvious to me and I'd be surprised if it was not said elsewhere, but I don't have any references to support it. I cut the mention of the elves' inhospitibleness, since that's not at all an inconsistency. Only Rivendell was hospitible; the elves of Lorien only allowed the Fellowship in as a special case. I also cut the Sackville-Baggins reference since that's not an inconsistency either; the S-Bs appear in LotR and have exactly the same character as in TH. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! What you've done is exactly what I was looking for. --P3d0 11:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Is the use of matches in the Hobbit really an inconsistancy? In Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire the narrator comments in an aside that "dwarves have never taken to matches even yet" (The Hobbit 102, London: HarperCollins, 1996). In the Hobbit, the narrator in general uses a more playful tone and more directly involves the reader and references modern times, whereas the LOTR is written in a much more high and serious style. Couldn't it just be that dwarves (and maybe other species as well) continue to prefer not to use matches in LOTR? Correct me if I am wrong, but the LOTR doesn't specifically say matches weren't invented yet, it just choses not to mention them. I don't really see this as a legitimate inconsistancy. Mllefantine 04:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not a continuity error. It is, however, a good example of inconsistency of tone. Morwen - Talk 11:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverend Mother?

This is the first time I have encountered this claim. Tolkien's biography very clearly states that a family friend named Elaine Griffiths was shown a typescript of the story in the early 1930s. When she later went to work for George Allen & Unwin, she revealed the existence of the story to a staffmember named Susan Dagnall, who in turn asked Tolkien if she could look at the (still incomplete) manuscript. He complied and Ms. Dagnall, impressed by it, urged him to complete the book. Once this was done in late 1936, she then showed the book to Stanley Unwin, who then asked his son Rayner's opinion. It is possible that Tolkien showed the book to this Reverend Mother (although the incident is not mentioned in either Carpener nor, as I recall, White), but she was not responsible for the book's publication.--Werthead 23:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I reverted this to the previous version - the current that I saw had been deleted. I apologise for not putting any comments in to that fact

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