Talk:The Five
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[edit] "Members?"
The use of "members" here and similar language in other articles of these five connotes some sort of establishment. I can't recall ever seeing them described as any more than like-minded associates in any notable texts. I'm inclined to replace with "...one of five composers known as..." with conforming edits in related articles. Thoughts? CleffedUp 11:26, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
- That would seem not to be necessary. The phrase "член могучей кучки" ("member of the Mighty Handful") is used in Russian as well. "Member" does not have to suggest that a person is in an organisation or society. (Even the supposedly more definite expression "card-carrying member of X" is often used in English in a figurative sense.)Mademoiselle Fifi 16:16, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Mighty Handful
I've always heard this phrase describes the works of Tomaso Albinoni. There were only a handful of them to survive but had a mighty influence. The Russian composers refered to here are correctly known as "The Five." Probably, someone incorrectly remembered the Mighty Handful and assumed that it connected to the Russian composers.
- You are insuffuciently informed. 'Mighty Handful' is a universally accepted translation of 'Kuchka' (literally 'mighty little heap'), which was a term contemporaneously assigned to these Russian composers by their friend Stasov. And with all due respect to Albinoni, he has been no 'influence' on anybody.
Pfistermeister 10:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Other names
In my native language(s), The Mighty Handful is also known as "The Petersburg group", "The Balakirev circle" and "The new Russian school" (direct translations). Are any of those frequent in English use? Should not those be added? --Dijxtra 16:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
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- I've never heard those names used in English before. I have however seen "The Mighty Fistful" used quite often. JLP101 15:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Five is Standard English Usage
Encylopædia Britannica lists this group as "The Five" [1] Columbia University Press's Encylopedia also refers to this group as "The Five" according to this page [2]. The third source here, giving "The Mighty Handful" is this article.... People looking for "The Five" aren't going to find this page. It should be moved. Musikfabrik 09:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Did this article formerly reside at "The Mighty Handful"? If so, why did it change? Anyone who knows Russian music deeply knows this group in English as "The Mighty Handful". The point is that Stasov named them not "The Five", but "Могучая кучка", and "The Mighty Handful" is clearly the more accurate designation. Almost every serious book (not encyclopedias) I have read about these composers uses "The Mighty Handful". The more accurate name should be the preferred name. Caving in to the majority is cowardly. Anyway, when you have the ability to direct all inquiries for "The Five" to "The Mighty Handful", there is no reason not to do it. Wikipedia should be encouraging precision. Of course you could argue that by pursuing this line of reasoning I would advocate using "The Mighty (Little) Heap", or "Moguchaya Kuchka", or even the Cyrillic equivalent. That would be stupid. But I would be seriously interested in knowing how many people who know a great deal about this group of composers actually prefer "The Five" to "The Mighty Handful". I think those Frenchies are involved in this one too somehow. Please pardon my arrogance, but this one always gets my hackle up.Ivan Velikii 07:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
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- What would it change if "those Frenchies", as you choose to call them, had been involved? I made the change and I'm an American. I do happen to be a French music specialist. Does this make me unqualified to discuss this article?
- This isn't about how people "prefer" this group to be called: this is about standard English usage as is practiced in English-speaking countries. To quote Wikipedia:Naming_conventions
- "articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists."
- I made the change because this is how this group is usuually refered to in English, as these very "standard" references prove. This is the English lanuage section of Wikipedia. I think that it's perfect that you use "Могучая кучка" in the Russian Language version, but most sources in English use "The Five". You will notice that after I made the name change, i also added the other names by which this group is known, as translated into English. Most English speakers will find "The Five" and then they will find the knowledge that, in Russian, this group is known as "The Mighty Handful". It seems to me that this will further people's education, since they won't know to look for the "Mighty Handful", but they WILL look for "the Five".
- The change was made almost a month ago and no one has noticed before. Perhaps you might want to bring this point up for discussion at the discussion page of the Wikiproject for composers and see what the general reaction is. Cordially Musikfabrik 19:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
