Talk:The Emergency

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I've rearranged stuff, put a shape onto it, and added some new material. It is taken from a short article in the recent issue of 'History Today' (March 2006) by Brian Girvin. He is a serious person, Professor of Politics at the University of Glasgow and, for those of you who might be bothered by such things, his degrees come from the University of Cork (which is also the source of the attitudes of Irish volunteers), and so is probably Irish. MAG1 23:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

My concern here is that it may not be obvious to some readers that Belfast was not in Eire. The para describes Eire's response to an event in a neighbouring (belligerent) country. Too much detail might obscure this fact. Of course, one might argue it provides an informative contrast for the relative extent of suffering in the two regions. I just want to flag the possible need for some judicious copyediting. More generally, the article could do with more info on North-South relations during the war, and the awkwardness of reconciling the theory of an all-Ireland state with the reality of one part being at war and the other not. Joestynes 00:40, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Done.

Contents

[edit] Neutrality

This article could do with an explanation for the decision to remain neutral in the war against fascism, becuase this is very difficult for other countries to understand or accept. Such a paragraph would have to be based on factual evidence from the State Papers of 1939. "Everybody knows" that it was because most of the government were veterans of the Anglo-Irish War and could not bring themselves to side with their recent enemy. Everybody also knows that there was a fear that Civil War would break out again: each side in the Spanish Civil War had an Irish Brigade. Another view was that, if Britain were to be defeated, De Valera could secure a United Ireland. Joining the Axis would be wildly unrealistic, so this was the next best thing. Certainly, Winston Churchill was most agrieved at Irelands refusal of his 'right' to the "Treaty Ports" (Cobh and "Kingstown" (Dun Laoghaire).

I think you have articulated several good points - please feel free to contribute yourself - wikipedia is not intended to be a discussion forum - as long as you do not make outlandish or mistaken claims then their is no reason why you should not contribute to the article itself. Djegan 18:29, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is quite a good discussion in the article on de Valera, so I'll create a link to that as s stub. I really don't _know_ the facts on this and it is important enough to be founded in proper study.
Irish neutrality could well have been to the advantage of the allies. If it was not for Irish food exports, Britain would have starved. --ClemMcGann 13:27, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Belfast blitz

"Not sure why information was removed from this para"

In Belfast, some 1,100 died during Luftwaffe bombing between April and May 1941. Some 53% of the city's housing stock (some 56,000 houses) were damaged and around 100,000 became temporarily homeless. After bombing on 15 April Fire tenders from Dublin, Drogheda and Dundalk crossed the Irish border to assist their Belfast colleagues.

versus

After Luftwaffe bombing of Belfast on 15 April Fire tenders from Dublin, Drogheda and Dundalk crossed the Irish border to assist their Belfast colleagues. (Some 1,100 were killed in Belfast between April and May 1941).

Apologies for having combined this with an unrelated change in a single edit. My concern here is that it may not be obvious to some readers that Belfast was not in Éire. The para describes Éire's response to an event in a neighbouring (belligerent) country. Too much detail might obscure this fact. Of course, one might argue it provides an informative contrast for the relative extent of suffering in the two regions. I just want to flag the possible need for some judicious copyediting. More generally, the article could do with more info on North-South relations during the war, and the awkwardness of reconciling the theory of an all-Ireland state with the reality of one part being at war and the other not. Joestynes 00:46, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A story related by a retired Dun Laoghaire fire man. At the time he was based in Tara Street. When they arrived in Belfast they were advised that the population was told that if they couldn't get to a bomb shelter to go helow their stairs. This would give some protection from falling masonry. So they went to bombed houses, identified where the stair well would have been, dug down and rescued many. In one instance, they heard calls for help as they dug and they replied. Eventually they could see the family sheltering below. The man had heard the strange accents and then saw the strange uniform and helmets. He asked "who are you?". "We are the Dublin Fire Brigade". "That must have been a mighty bomb!". --ClemMcGann 23:47, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Another consequence of the Belfast Blitz, and if it is added, it would have to be carefully worded, in the effect of the vacuum produced when the gas works exploded. When the gas works exploded, a temporary vacuum was produced. This affected houses nearby. All fires were extinguished. Slates were ripped off roofs. Windows and the lighter contents of rooms were sucked out. That included curtains and bed coverings. According to retired members of the Dublin fire service they were confronted with horrific scenes. People lying in bed, eyes wide open, mouths wide open. Dead. Without any injury. Often naked. Because of the temporary vacuum there was no air to breath, so they suffocated.--ClemMcGann 16:12, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The Belfast Blitz piece is now too large, in the sense that it is out of proportion to the rest of the article. Perhaps it deserves an aricle in its own right and a link from here to it? --ClemMcGann 11:04, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


It may deserve an ariticle as well, but it is critical in The Emergency - a valuable contribution. Conversely, I can't see how you could have an article about the Belfast Blitz without including most of what is in the Emergency article as context.
Someone is going to demand a source for the statement that Brookeborough requested assistance because there is certainly a view that it was unilateral. --Red King 11:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If that someone wants an on-line reference try the BBC: [1] has a time line:
  • 4.15: John McDermott phones Sir Basil Brooke to ask permission to request fire engines from Eire
  • 4.35am: De Valera agrees to send fire tenders to North
  • 6.45: 70 men + 13 fire engines from Dublin, Dun Laoghaire, Drogheda and Dundalk speed Northwards --ClemMcGann 13:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Éire

I have removed the inappropriate and repeated use of Éire as the states name as this - contray to popular opinion - has never been the states name in the English language, their is an encylopedia at ga.wikipedia.org for Irish usage. Moreover its use, as such in English, is something more appropriate to the 1940's and not a modern article, historic or otherwise. Djegan 21:04, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

The constitution states "The name of the country is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland", a word-for-word translation of the Irish version which leaves open as a possible interpretation that Éire is valid in either language (while Ireland is only valid in English). It would better have said "The name of the country is Éire in Irish, and Ireland in English". Which still leaves the problem of having to resort to unwieldy circumlocutions to steer between an ambiguous Ireland and an inaccurate Éire. (I know you know all this, Djegan; I'm talking to the room)Joestynes 12:27, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
The English version of Bunreacht na hÉireann has no legal force. The authoritative version in Irish unambiguously states that the name of the country, in English, is Ireland. However due to its reflexive nature, it can't be unambiguously translated into English. The safest naming that can be used in English is Republic of Ireland. The use of Éire is also ambiguous as it's the name of the whole island in Gaelic. --Kgaughan 19:34, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
"English version...no legal force" - thats a new concept, please introduce that concept at Constitution of Ireland - dont be surprised if it gets reverted. Djegan 19:42, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Good idea. I'll do that a bit later when I have a chance to do a proper edit. --Kgaughan 15:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Cancel that. I just checked the Bunreacht na hÉireann article, and it already mentions the necessary articles in question, along with stating the legal primacy of the text in Irish. Here's a sample from article 25.5.4: In case of conflict between the texts of any copy of this Constitution enrolled under this section, the text in the national language shall prevail. --Kgaughan 15:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Their is a very big difference between "in case of conflict" and "no legal force", I suggest your read this and if this is accurate then have no doubt about the states name in English been "Ireland". Djegan 15:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I ought to have qualified "no legal force" with "in essence", since it is not considered under law to be the definitive form. This leaves it with, in essence, no legal force. It only has legal force where there is no ambiguity between the two text, but even then the legal touchstone is the version as Gaeilge. In this case, the difference between "in case of conflict" and "no legal force" is minimal. I took a read of the Supreme Court opinion you pointed to, and it's saying pretty much what I was trying to get across. I think we're in violent agreement here. --Kgaughan 17:34, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I support what Djegan has done on this one. There was just one line which really jarred because of its prominence:
I've changed it to the rather unwieldy "The Irish state was however..." because the collision of geography with politics here is too strong. Better suggestions welcome. (I've also added a line to say that NI was formally in the war.) --Red King 13:52, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
2 cents worth- I've worked on the period of IRA activity spanning 1936 - 1940 in S-Plan and 1942 - 1944 in Northern Campaign (IRA). The rule of thumb i've applied is Eire when referring to the government, authority (political/legal), and geographical territory, but prefacing it sometimes with "(the state formerly known as the Irish Free State)" or if the other way around the Irish Free State (which later became the territory of Éire). Northern Ireland had a government at the time.
I did this because you dont know who will come along and add something prior to 1938. Also, the IRA in the period had the policy of not permitting "active operations" in Éire under standing order eight. For IRA articles the use of the term is important because its all tied up with partition. Saying "Ireland" and linking to Ireland implies the entire geographical region which usually POVs an article as much as the use of the terms "six counties" and "twenty-six counties", Irish Republic (over Republic of Ireland etc.
Some of the Abwehr & Luftwaffe missions i've looked at were distinctly ordered not to infringe into Éire airspace whilst some were. Éire being a term both british and germans used at the time. Being as specific as possible about where they landed and ended up is tricky without using Éire/Northern Ireland over 'Ireland'. If the article is something to do with military manuevers like in Operation Green (Ireland) I try and use the catch all term "island of Ireland". Fluffy999 23:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I have changed instances of "Éire" to "Éire/Ireland" as whilst understanding that Éire was the name generally attributed to the Republic of Ireland at the time none-the-less this is simply an Irish language word that means "Ireland" and is not the states name in English. Its probably the best compromise on negative cognitations on Éire, whilst not using Ireland alone; see Names of the Irish state. Djegan 14:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, sorry but I left a comment on your talk page before I noticed your comment here. Please disregard.
I used the word Éire deliberately. I know its literal meaning, but it has a number of conotations, including political ones just like the word 'Ireland'. I disagree with the change as I believe
  • it adds complexity to an already complicated article,
  • it will mean further complexity when information about Unionists and their reaction to "The Emergency" is added and,
  • it places this article about the time period out of step with all the others which use the term Éire when "Éire" is meant
Its not worth fighting over really, just dont see the point. Fluffy999 15:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I saw your comment and its not worth fighting over. Forget I mentioned it Fluffy999 15:36, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a suggestion, but when discussing the geographical area (as when referring to invasions, for example) controlled by the Irish state (not the government or state), could we not refer to it as southern Ireland (note capitalisation)? I think that may be clearest to the casual reader.MAG1 20:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Éire (again)

The Constitution of Ireland makes it quite clear the English name, of the state, is "Ireland" whilst the Irish name is "Éire" - it really does not matter which version you read. The constitution does not pertain to change the laws of language. Djegan 18:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I've replaced "translation" with "version". But the article definitely needs to distinguish between the state and the island, hence the Éire/Ireland device that I've added. It's only a device. --Red King 19:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, clarification of the state vs. the island is an issue. I think a footnote style reference such as how County Londonderry/Derry are referenced in Northern Ireland could be the way forward for Éire in articles when required. Djegan 20:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Belfast Blitz (again)

(ClemMcGann wrote this as a comment on my last at Éire above, but the indents are getting too difficult. So time to start a subtopic. --Red King 14:36, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

A few points on the Belfast Blitz. Belfast was important for many reasons other than H&W. Aircraft were made there as were tanks. The records for Belfast Port are now in the MII library in Dun Laoghaire [2]. I was surprised when reading the source documents to see just how many tanks and other armaments were shipped through Belfast. Next issue. It was after the raid that Dev made his “they are our people” speech, and he protested to Berlin. In papers found after the war, Goobles told his radio not to mention the Belfast raid, that Hitler was concerned that it might cause Ireland to enter the war and that that would influence Irish-American politicians. (At that time Germany sought to keep America neutral). Another point. I read recently that the North Strand bombing was a result of British Intelligence ‘bending the waves’. German Bombers took their bearings from directional signals. The British broadcast false imitation signals. --ClemMcGann 14:16, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The first two points are certainly worth adding. The original version gave no clue as to why the Luftwaffe should want to bomb any part of Ireland (island), so I've started it off. So yes, please add.
Assuming the target was Liverpool, the angle of error is still very severe, so I think this claim is very speculative indeed. My reading (if I can ever find it again) was that the bending might cause the bombers to miss their target by a few miles, not by 75 miles. Any vaguely compenent navigator would detect that with a compass. --Red King 14:36, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
1 of the pilots supposedly apologised already in 1999. 'Heinrich' said the target was Belfast here. From the article:

"In fact, the British could not "bend" the beams, which were sent out from occupied France and Norway. But they could interfere with the radio signals and force aircraft to lose their way. An intriguing series of reports from the once secret intelligence files of the Irish army suggest that this had already happened on 28 May 1941 - two days before the Dublin bombing - when large numbers of aircraft, almost certainly German, flew up the Irish coast and then became confused when they reached the Irish capital. Many of them were then heard to drop their bombs over the sea after presumably realising they were not over a UK target."


According to Tim Pat Coogan’s de Valera ‘long fellow, short shadow’ page 585 Winston Churchill, of all people, later suggested that the raids might have been the result of a British invention which distorted Luftwaffe radio guidance beams so as to throw their planes off course A similar claim is in Joseph T Carroll “Ireland in the War Years” page 109.--ClemMcGann 16:03, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shipping

At some stage I hope to do a few lines on those who lost their lives on Irish Ships. see [3] If it wasn't for Irish food exports, Britian would have starved --ClemMcGann 13:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Weather Reports

The article said that weather reports were broadcast on Irish radio. The opposite was the case. There was a total ban on any such reports, which made commentaries on football matches difficult. However they were sent on a telephone link, which was a radio-telephone. As for RAF pilots being returned. It wasn't always as automatic as the article says. and there was the case of an Eagle pilot who was returned --ClemMcGann 21:23, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unsupported edits

User:Toya has made some additions which are quite new and really do need to be sourced if they are to remain. For the moment, they are just quoted out.

I've completely removed There was a corridor near Donegal which British aircraft could use when flying from bases in Northern Ireland out over the Atlantic, which was used by, for example, the reconnaissance aircraft which spotted the German battleship Bismarck heading for France in 1941. since this seems to show the author knows nothing about the geography of border betweeen Éire and Northern Ireland. The border goes midway up the Foyle and then out more or less due north to the 12 mile (20km) limit. So there was no issue. But if the author meant to say that the RAF could fly through Irish airspace (due west from Derry), then again that needs sources. --Red King 11:22, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I am well aware of the geography of the border. My authority is partly Ludovic Kennedy's "Pursuit: The Sinking of the Bismarck", the flying boat which spotted the Bismarck flew from Lower Lough Erne, out across Achill Island. You only need to look at the map to see that there was no point having a flying boat base on Lower Lough Erne unless they had the ability to cross Eire airspace. I have also read about the corridor near Donegal, but I don't have the authority to hand. PatGallacher 13:01, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you mean. It would not have been credible to keep it on Lough Erne if it was going to go out over the Foyle anyway. But it could fly up the Erne to Belleek, County Fermanagh, which is just a few miles from the sea at Ballyshannon, County Donegal. See map [4]. It's credible, but you still really need to find the source becuase it is quite a critical point. --Red King 00:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dev supported the Axis?

Does anyone have any authority for [this] paragraph, added by an anonymous user. If not, I will revert. PatGallacher 00:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The anon editor writes
  • There was substantial indirect evidence that De Valera collaborated with the Germans against the Alies in minor ways during the war for example in relation to the security of Allied shipping but this was always denied.
We need a lot more that wild assertion. Please cite your sources. This claim is at odds with all the other documented evidence, so cannot be allowed to stay without evidence. --Red King 01:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Holocaust

Thanks for citing the De Valera holocaust thing. I'm just wondering if his knowledge of the holocaust either way is relevant. As a bald statement out there it just seems POV.

"Elements of Irish public opinion were slow to accept the nature of the Nazi regime. The films of concentration camps were denounced as propaganda, and there was official indifference to the fate of the Jews during and after the war, even though de Valera knew of the atrocities as early as 1943"

Implying he knew of "atrocities" then letting the reader fill in that blank with images from footage of the "atrocities" which we have all grown up with might be a little POV. Can't this be fleshed out a little- what did he know? who told him? did he trust the source? was there a reason why it was denounced as propaganda? was it in the press? etc.

I know there was official indifference, for example in not accepting jewish migrants after ww2 but happily accepting German kids, but for a subject that can cause so much argument and offense it seems to have been skated over a little bit. Fluffy999 23:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but that is all I've got, though it is unequivocally stated and Brian Girvin is a serious scholar [5]. If you are really keen, you could buy his book [6](no, I don't get a cut). Don't really get your POV point. It has to be said that the pictures from Belsen would have been widely seen in early 1945, and even so there was the failure to accept Jewish migrants after the war and opposition to the Nuremberg trials, so there is no obvious reason for rejecting the statement. While not noble behaviour, I don't think this makes anyone particularly bad- everyone all but ignored the plight of German Jews before the war, and we all sat round, twiddling our thumbs while the Rwanda genocide went on.

On a related side issue, I tell you what, if you have the resources, it would be interesting to hear what Irish diplomats were sending from occupied Europe or Berlin, if any were there.

By the way, really like your edits, but you may like to put in some citations yourself to discourage people from messing around with them. You may also like to join the discussion above on what to call in English the Irish state at that time- it's something some people seem to get excited about. MAG1 22:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

OK no problems, will check it out. Dont really think it should be rejected, and im not rejecting your sources :)
Im working on the entire suite of Ireland - IRA - German intelligence, didnt appear to be much on wikipedia about it. Few more articles to go. Hope to have all the documented stuff mapped out with citations in those articles soon enough. If I come across any diplomatic stuff I will let you know, have only diplomat Leopold Kearny mentioned so far but he was in Madrid- mentioned in the Frank Ryan article. Thanks. Fluffy999 22:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I added some things which give some context to the holocuast thing- I dont know what de Valera knew in 1943 but will look for that book to find out. The antisemitism thing probably belongs in an article on its own because the Nazi radio broadcasts played on it North & South of the border.
Also there is some room in the article for dealings with Northern Ireland in the article as it was a feature of de Valera's manuverings in "the Emergency" although I will try to cover the guts of this in the Plan W article. There are also some details about relations with the fear of the USSR that can be included to- this ties into the whole "Allies are as bad as the Axis" worldview and can perhaps go some way to contributing to the current summing up on de Valera's Neutrality policy. Thanks for the tip on the book. Fluffy999 11:19, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Found part of the answer. De Valera was in correspondence with a rabbi called Herzog who had been Chief Rabbi of Ireland and was now in Jerusalem. He had been making increasingly desperate statements about the fate of Jewry in continental Europe. In 1943 he explicitly stated that he expected the death of two million Jews. There may have been other sources as well (definitely before the end of the war), and I will put something in when I have the details. MAG1 19:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Great work :) I added some images, and put some over on Plan W where the majority of information on the Irish military of the time period is too. I'd like the NI stuff to be beefed up too but I dont know that much about it. The only articles I will be writing on the period now are one for the LSF (Irish home guard forces) and the NI home guard. Most of the IRA nazi stuff is now done, so just need to write an envelope explaining Irish government policy regarding executions and internment- that can probably be referred to in this article. Fluffy999 22:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Operation Green / Fall Grün

I have re-written the article about the German plan to invade Ireland in ww2, Operation Green (Ireland). Please have a look and see if you can add anything- some detail on Irish defenses if possible.

The article on Plan Kathleen (recently renamed from Operation Artur) will be re-written soon. The original Operation Artur article, as well as being wrongly titled, wasn't accurate, so please check the details if you have referred to it, or sampled information from it. Fluffy999 20:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I will not be responding to messages left on my talkpage or on pages for articles I have worked on. Will no longer be contributing to wikipedia. Thank you. Fluffy999 13:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SS Kyleclare

I deleted the note "was attacked by Ju 88's off Brownstown Head, County Waterford as well and". This did happen, but later in Feb 23 1943 it was torpedoed by U-456 and 18 died. ClemMcGann 00:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of this article (to be an FAC)

It seems to me that this article is an FAC, but the name is going to be a problem. There are lots of "states of national emergency" around the world - the one in India is already listed. Is there a case for moving it to Emergency (Ireland)? --Red King 20:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The name is not a problem because even though there were lots of "states of national emergency" around the world, the period 1939-1945 in Ireland was officially known as "The Emergency". If any others were known by the same name, but I don't think there are any, there might be a case for suggesting The Emergency (Ireland) but I would not support any change without very good reason. ww2censor 03:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I would leave it for now unless their is a real and substantial need for moving. Djegan 18:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
On the one hand, it would be biased to allow The Blitz but not The Emergency. On the other hand, Ireland during World War II would line up nicer in Category:World War II national military histories. On the other other hand, Ireland is, as we know, a problematic word in this context. jnestorius(talk) 18:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It's probably best to concentrate on the article in hand: the name of the Blitz is neither here or there. I'd leave it alone unless someone complains, and then your suggestion would be fine, though I'd keep the definite article. Ireland during World War II would not be helpful as the experiences north and south of the border were distinct. MAG1 21:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The point about the Blitz is that "there were blitzes in places other than London" just as "there were emergencies in places other than Ireland". Regarding Ireland: my point precisely. "Irish Free State" and "Republic of Ireland" are anachronistic and hence unavailable. jnestorius(talk) 17:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Well at least we've discussed it and the consensus seems to be "no change". So we can pre-empt the question if it arises at FAC consideration stage. --Red King 20:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


IRISH NEUTRALITY

In 1939, Great Britain and France declared war on Germany. The countries of their respective Empires supported them. So far as I am aware, every other country in the world was either neutral or allied to the Germans. The vast majority of countries which ended up at war with with Germany did so after either having being attacked by her, or through a last minute desire to be on the winning side. No country cited Germany's treatment of the Jews as a causus belli, nor was this argument urged on Ireland. Ireland's position was only unique in that while officially a British Dominion, she did not support the "mother" country. This is what enraged Churchill; by his reasoning, he may have had a arguable point, but I fail to see the logic of American, Dutch, Belgian, Norwegian, Danish, Russian, etc. critics. Perhaps they should read a litle history.

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